Carmack: Sony made wise engineering decisions for PS4

[dirtydog1979]

well, from my comment it's pretty clear that I do understand GPU's. What doesn't make sense is again and I will explain this one more time. You are saying that Sony has basically made with AMD an APU that is capable of costing way less and yet if a dev wants to he can use 4GB of GDDR5 for the GPU. This is what you are stating. He could also use 5GB of GDDR5. Cross this with my previous point this system should be costing well over $1500.

Again, something doesn't make any sense and it sure isn't on my end.

Okay, now not only this but now AMD and Sony have reinvented how PC gaming fuctions as well. So yea, something isn't right and it's not my fault

AMD have A good APU now with the A8 5600k (A10 5800k doesn't really add much when dual graphic'd) trinity I use it with the HD6670 in Dual graphics and I can use the system RAM DDR3 on the APU graphics setting it to use up to 2gig, if AMD have made a custom APU using GDDR5 as its RAM with the HD8000D series it will not be to costly my A8 set up cost £360 complete build I think Sony can get a better deal than me lol, I can run F1 2012 on ULTRA with the correct BIOS tweaks and BFBC2 on High both at a steady 35 to 42fps

[Ixion]

Isnt it time for an original doom remake?

That's what DOOM 3 was.

[keefy]

I use to do heavy PC gaming before the PS3 and that was probably the hardest adjustment for me on FPS games, going from KBM to a controller! Now I am almost as good with a controller as I was with a KBM!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

Yes its tough transition going back to controllers. When COD4 was new I bought it for PS3 and played it lots and even bought DLC but after a while I knew I was being gimped by the controller, yes everyone else is using one but I knew I could achieve more precise aiming and turn around faster if I used a mouse and it annoyed the crap out of me.

I tried again FPS's on PS3 with Killzone 2 but that was even worse due to the input lag and I finally realised I will only ever be "nearly as good" because of the slow turn rate and the tiny amount the analogue stick moves compared to mice.

[itachi73378]

The Nvidia GTX Titan has 6GB of GDDR5, consisting of twenty four 2gb GDDR5 chips. That is 12 on each side as can be seen in this photo:
If the GPU in the photo can be visualized as the Jaguar APU, that is going to mean the PS4 will have to have 8 more memory chips. That is a lot of real estate. Even if 8GB of slower clock GDDR5 costs around $200, then that leaves the cost of the APU, the MMU, the hard drive, the faster (more capacity?) blu-ray, a stereo camera peripheral, new controller, included headset for under $499? Even if it is a slower clocked GDDR5, Sony needs to have a supplier of 64-bit GDDR5, possibly 4gb to reduce the chip count to 16.

I hope this doesn't turn out to be the same 'lie' sony told about dual hdmi outputs/3 ethernet ports for ps3

Maybe it has 3D memory stacking?

You would use that if you were trying to get high speed out of slow ram like DDR3 so I don't think that is what's happening

[Ryunosuke]

I hope this doesn't turn out to be the same 'lie' sony told about dual hdmi outputs/3 ethernet ports for ps3

Huge difference in adding/removing ports than it is hardware like RAM. Sony may have kept this secret from everyone but this was not a spur of the moment type decision.

At this point if there was any chance they wouldn't go with or change their minds about the 8GB of GDDR5 they wouldn't have announced it.

[itachi73378]

Huge difference in adding/removing ports than it is hardware like RAM. Sony may have kept this secret from everyone but this was not a spur of the moment type decision.

At this point if there was any chance they wouldn't go with or change their minds about the 8GB of GDDR5 they wouldn't have announced it.

thats what I keep telling myself

[Jabjabs]

Yeah the huge amount of RAM in the face of the limitations of current manufacturing is quiet an achievement and a worry at the same time. Here's hoping they don't do a 180 and go back on it.

[admartian]

It's called Tall Poppy Syndrome mon ami.

Didn't know MATRIX 2 was kiwi.

[jlippone]

you are saying that the APU can swap to whatever it wants with GDDR5. So if a developer is developing a game they can use 3GB of GDDR5 for the GPU if they want to, while another developer can use 2GB or just 1GB of GDDR5, while this next developer could use 5GB of GDDR5. That is what I was reading on your comment. Infact that is what you are saying and I don't believe it.

Let me help you.

This is how Xbox 360 uses it's own unified memory. (xbox1 was unified as well.)

(from very nice x360 article from B3D)
(also a very good paper on x360)
(Plenty of Microsofts presentations on x360.)
The 'north bridge' resides within GPU and all memory traffic to CPU goes trough GPU. (there is no need for PCIE)
Whole 512MB is seen as single block to the CPU&GPU and can be addressed as as such by both chips.

So if you need 480MB for the actual game and rest of the memory for graphics you can do that.
This is not something that is locked during boot either, you can allocate memory as you wish.

UMA and system designed to work like this can give some nice advantages like ability to work with CPU & GPU on same data and fast low latency access between them.

[MonkeyClaw]

You would use that if you were trying to get high speed out of slow ram like DDR3 so I don't think that is what's happening

I was referencing Bligmerk's question on the number of 2gb GDDR5 chips that are going to be on the motherboard, to have 8GB of that memory using 2gb chips it is going to take 32 x 2gb chips, I was thinking that they might use 3D stacking to reduce the amount of chips on the board, etc.

[Coconut_Crunch]

Let me help you.

This is how Xbox 360 uses it's own unified memory. (xbox1 was unified as well.)

(from very nice x360 article from B3D)
(also a very good paper on x360)
(Plenty of Microsofts presentations on x360.)
The 'north bridge' resides within GPU and all memory traffic to CPU goes trough GPU. (there is no need for PCIE)
Whole 512MB is seen as single block to the CPU&GPU and can be addressed as as such by both chips.

So if you need 480MB for the actual game and rest of the memory for graphics you can do that.
This is not something that is locked during boot either, you can allocate memory as you wish.

UMA and system designed to work like this can give some nice advantages like ability to work with CPU & GPU on same data and fast low latency access between them.

I believe my confusion is this. How much will the CPU use, GPU, add in the background stuff that is going on while you are playing. So how much RAM for all that background stuff is going to need to be used?

Some of that RAM must be put aside for certain things.


Obviously the GPU and CPU may fluctuate, but there must be a certain amount set aside I would think. But than again maybe there is a certain amount set aside and what's left is 8GB of GDDR5?

[Cyn]

These are questions that nobody but Sony's OS team could answer for you and maybe they don't know exactly yet.

But for the sake of it, you can probably put a cap on 1GB reserved for the OS and related tasks. Very doubtful more than that would be reserved and likely less. That's a far far larger footprint than the PS3's OS had and we're under the impression at least that Sony's hardware and software engineers have exchanged more than fleeting glances this time around lol.

All the rest will be free for gaming related tasks. As for GPU/CPU, it doesn't really matter, it's unified. Will be on a game by game basis.

[itachi73378]

I believe my confusion is this. How much will the CPU use, GPU, add in the background stuff that is going on while you are playing. So how much RAM for all that background stuff is going to need to be used?

Some of that RAM must be put aside for certain things.


Obviously the GPU and CPU may fluctuate, but there must be a certain amount set aside I would think. But than again maybe there is a certain amount set aside and what's left is 8GB of GDDR5?

You are correct that the OS will reguire a set amount so lets assume its 512mb. Now you have 7.5GB left

A unified architecture allows for what ever amount devs want. If I want I can use 6GB for GPU and only give 1.5GB to CPU or I can do 3GB to GPU and the rest to CPU....its all under my control in a unified memory setup (like the xbox360 and ps4)

You are confused because PC cards come with dedicated VRAM. You cannot get more than 2GB for GPU in a gtx660ti but that is because they aren't unified.

[Coconut_Crunch]

That's fuckin insane.

[itachi73378]

That's fuckin insane.

Hence why even carmack is excited

[Sufi]

The point, becoming more and more, of these consoles is that they're specifically designed for something, so you have less variables and more efficient results, thus you don't need a powerhouse that is 50/60% utilized, rather a compact punch that will give you a 100% that is close enough.

Thus low costs and comparable results.

[itachi73378]

The point, becoming more and more, of these consoles is that they're specifically designed for something, so you have less variables and more efficient results, thus you don't need a powerhouse that is 50/60% utilized, rather a compact punch that will give you a 100% that is close enough.

Thus low costs and comparable results.

yes and what some people are forgetting is that neither sony nor microsoft want hardware failures so they are limiting the power draw of their machines. Speculation is that next gen console will draw less power than current ones (definitely less than launch models of ps360)

[Cyn]

The important thing is that the RAM is fast. Having a lot of it is nice, but a lot of slower RAM doesn't get you excited.

Even on PC we really aren't seeing any games use more than 2GB of VRAM, although this isn't including system RAM in the equation, so I'm wondering how exactly devs will respond to it. Our games will probably be looking a lot fuller in the next few years and we'll go back and play top games from today and they'll feel relatively empty.

[itachi73378]

The important thing is that the RAM is fast. Having a lot of it is nice, but a lot of slower RAM doesn't get you excited.

Even on PC we really aren't seeing any games use more than 2GB of VRAM, although this isn't including system RAM in the equation, so I'm wondering how exactly devs will respond to it. Our games will probably be looking a lot fuller in the next few years and we'll go back and play top games from today and they'll feel relatively empty.

PC games rarely cross 1GB if you turn AA off or use post process AA

[Sufi]

yes and what some people are forgetting is that neither sony nor microsoft want hardware failures so they are limiting the power draw of their machines. Speculation is that next gen console will draw less power than current ones (definitely less than launch models of ps360)

But that doesn't mean that this jump wasn't as large, imo, I believe it's a much bigger jump than last generation.

To me, RAM is very important because it's the biggest bottleneck we have...so going from 512mb to 8000mb is a huge deal.

Since the technology is better now, we can have powerful CPUs/GPUs without the energy consumption.

[itachi73378]

But that doesn't mean that this jump wasn't as large, imo, I believe it's a much bigger jump than last generation.

To me, RAM is very important because it's the biggest bottleneck we have...so going from 512mb to 8000mb is a huge deal.

Since the technology is better now, we can have powerful CPUs/GPUs without the energy consumption.

I didn't even mean the 'jump' I was just annoyed that people just see the latest 300W PC card and start to expect the same one in a console. These people are too slow to actually figure out how consoles work

[Coconut_Crunch]

If I'm not mistaken when looking at how consoles grew during each new console. Technically consoles should be around where the WiiU is currently at for RAM or 1.5 to 2GB of ram., so with the PS4 using 8GB GDDR5 that is completely insane and that is more of cannon ball distance then a jump.

[Cyn]

If I'm not mistaken when looking at how consoles grew during each new console. Technically consoles should be around where the WiiU is currently at for RAM or 1.5 to 2GB of ram., so with the PS4 using 8GB GDDR5 that is completely insane and that is more of cannon ball distance then a jump.

Technically speaking it was the same level of jump, 16 times the memory as previous gen. It's just the actual amount is a hell of a lot more.

[claud3]

He as posted another blog

http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2013/0...on-strategies/

Here is a sample of the blog he wrote

Abstract

Virtual reality (VR) is one of the most demanding human-in-the-loop applications from a latency standpoint. The latency between the physical movement of a user’s head and updated photons from a head mounted display reaching their eyes is one of the most critical factors in providing a high quality experience.

Human sensory systems can detect very small relative delays in parts of the visual or, especially, audio fields, but when absolute delays are below approximately 20 milliseconds they are generally imperceptible. Interactive 3D systems today typically have latencies that are several times that figure, but alternate configurations of the same hardware components can allow that target to be reached.

[Sufi]

Technically speaking it was the same level of jump, 16 times the memory as previous gen. It's just the actual amount is a hell of a lot more.

Nope, 64 to 512 was half that. So we are seeing twice the jump this time around.

Even PS2's 48 to 512 is close to 11 times.

We're seeing a huge dump...basically good enough to compete with PCs longer than ever before.

The best thing about all of this is that we will have access to PC games that we didn't before...I'm sure not all of them and not even most but whatever we can get...it'll be worth it.

Planet Side 2 is pretty much confirmed. I'm stoked because I like PC gaming and even if we get that little piece of the pie that only PC's been able to have...it'll mean big for consoles.