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    The PS4's processor and performance

    Hi, i was at http://www.engadget.com

    and i found this interesting article about PS4, i thought to share it.


    The PS4's processor and performance: what we know and what we think we know.

    After all the press events, TV cameos and probing interviews, what do we really know about the PS4? The announcement of the next-gen console is a prime example of having an abundance of specs and a lack of knowledge. Although Sony put out a sheet of stats about the console's processor and memory, many of the words it used -- Jaguar cores, compute units, unified memory -- are more ambiguous than they may sound.

    Nevertheless, even with all these foggy bits, there are some things -- five, in fact -- that we probably can predict about the PS4's hardware. They're listed after the break in order of decreasing certainty. All the way from confident logic down to... well, not quite flailing around with a butter knife during a power cut, but you get the picture.

    1. These chips ain't cheap

    AMD. APU. Six letters which would normally spell out the word "cheap." But in the case of the PS4, we can be pretty sure of the opposite. In fact, from the data Sony has revealed, the PS4's APU actually sounds like a serious investment -- not only in terms of R&D for the semi-custom design, but also in terms of raw components.

    It's true that AMD is known for undercutting Intel in the marketplace, usually with the sacrifice of some general computing power. And among AMD's offerings, the APUs -- which combine CPU and GPU on a single piece of silicon -- generally hit the lowest price points, maxing out at a retail price of around $130. Merging processors is a tried-and-tested way of reducing costs -- that's why Microsoft did it with the Xbox 360 Slim in 2010.

    But here's the thing: AMD's current top-end APU only delivers around 700 GFLOPs of compute power from its CPU and GPU combined. We're told the PS4's processor delivers nearly 2 TFLOPs from its GPU alone. In other words, we're looking at 3X compute performance before we even get to the eight-core CPU.

    To get a similar level of graphical power to the PS4, you'd need to spend at least $200.

    To get a similar level of graphical power to the PS4, you'd need to spend at least $200 on a Radeon HD 7850 graphics card and splash out extra on a processor. But even then you'd only have 2GB of GDDR5 memory. This type of memory tends to be slightly more expensive than regular DDR3 system memory, and Sony tells us the PS4 comes with 8GB of the stuff. There's no way on earth that could come cheap.

    As to how much we loyal gamers will be asked to cough up for a PS4, we can only hope that it'll be less than the burdensome $499 starting price of the PS3. Sony has only hinted that it "hopes" to bring it in under $599. Perhaps Sony will take on a short-term hit to its margins in return for the long-term gains of building the PlayStation ecosystem. AMD may also shoulder some of this responsibility, since it also stands to gain strategically from this deal -- an idea we'll return to shortly.

    2. Nothing else compares

    Now that we've mentioned parallels with some existing PC components, why don't we go whole hog and design a PC rig to match the PS4's basic specs? It'd be a fun way to spend a weekend, but alas it'd also be spurious. A total waste of time.

    How come? Because the PS4 is a true next-gen device. It'll be built around AMD's Jaguar core, which is still a long way from being available on the PC market. We know that Jaguar is an evolution of the Bobcat core found in relatively low-powered netbooks, but that doesn't mean we can use any Bobcat device for comparison. Existing Bobcat netbooks generally have two cores, while the PS4 has eight.

    The PS4 is a true next-gen device.

    And here's another good reason to be wary of parallels with existing PC components: Sony's use of GDDR5 "unified memory." We've already mentioned the fact that it comes in an expensive 8GB dollop, but we also need to bear in mind its speed and the way it's going to be used.

    In PCs, the CPU generally uses lower-bandwidth DDR3 memory, while the graphics card (if there is one) uses faster GDDR5. The Xbox 360 went the "unified" route, using 512MB of GDDR3 for both the CPU and GPU. The PS4's memory will also be unified, but it'll be faster than anything that has been used for this purpose before, so it could potentially remove bottlenecks and improve performance in ways that are hard for us to anticipate. Equally, there may also be drawbacks that are hard to predict, for example with regards to memory latency.

    3. PC gamers needn't feel jealous

    It's worth reiterating though, that even if the PS4 does put its memory to wildly good use, it'll probably serve to compensate for the low-power nature of its processor rather than to push the boundaries of gaming graphics.

    It won't match a good gaming PC for raw performance.

    As a benchmark, a current high-class gaming PC has enough grunt to run games on multiple monitors at extremely high resolutions, reaching or even exceeding the number of pixels used in 4K displays. The PS4 will handle 4K video at at launch, and may possibly get an update to enable 4K gaming later if developers start taking the format seriously. But by the time that happens (let's say in a couple of years), PC rigs will have been upgraded and will still be way ahead. So if you want mega high resolutions now or later, the PC will probably still be the best route to deliver that.

    Sony execs have already hinted that the PS4 is going to be about the complete package -- including things like streamed gaming -- rather than its pure hardware capability. This package of features might entice many PC gamers, but it won't match a good gaming PC for raw performance.

    4. Maybe we're not meant to turn it off

    Each update to the PS3 brought its power consumption down significantly, mainly by shrinking the processor's transistors down from 90nm to 65nm and then 45nm. The original 90nm processor burned up to 200W merely while perusing menus (yes, that's more than some refrigerators) and we'd never have left it on overnight for fear of attracting mice to the warmth of the TV cabinet.

    The latest version consumes just 60W on the menu or up to 80W while running a game, but the PS4 could take things even lower while still pulling of sophisticated functions -- such as acting as a game hub for a connected PS Vita, or running always-on facial recognition with the new sensor-laden Eye module.

    The 28nm Jaguar cores in the PS4 are an evolution of AMD's Bobcat silicon, which was used in netbook processors that generally maxed out at 18W. According to slides recently released by AMD, a quad-core Jaguar chip will consume up to 25W. Even if the PS4 doubles that, with eight cores burning 50W, that'd still be a lot quieter and easier to cool than a recent PS3. (But remember, we're well into very speculative territory at this point.)

    5. It'll change the way games are made

    AMD has staked its future on a certain philosophy that has sometimes left it looking isolated. Unlike Intel, which throws its billions into putting ever-greater numbers of transistors into its cores, AMD reckons that there are smarter ways to use and arrange these transistors.

    Having many weak cores instead of a few strong ones is a classic example. It's a pattern found in AMD's FX range of PC chips and now in the PS4's spec sheet, but game developers just aren't used to it. They're accustomed to good single-threaded performance, so they'll have to adapt if they want to the push the PS4 to its limits. They'll also have to look into tricks like GPU compute, which can allow a strong GPU to help a weak CPU on certain non-graphical tasks.

    All of this will be good for AMD, since games will run better on its hardware. But in the long-term it could be a good thing for anyone looking to play games on a low-cost, low-power device.

    Wrap-up

    Granted, there's a lot of guesswork going on here. But hopefully some of the items we've looked at from Sony's spec sheet will now have a bit more context. Not only in terms of what words like APU and "unified memory" mean, but also with respect to the bigger picture of what the PS4 is designed to achieve.

    We could be wrong, but it looks to us like Sony has made a serious investment in a new type of processor that finds a better balance between performance and power consumption. It could deliver the 1080p visuals of a current mid-range gaming PC but in a form factor more akin to a small and quiet HTPC. We just hope that's as clever as it sounds -- and that Sony will find a way to keep the price below that of the console's predecessor.



    Original Link
    http://www.engadget.com/2013/02/25/p...n-4-processor/

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    ehhh, I dunno. You have to remember that Sony worked with AMD also, it just wasn't AMD that made it.

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    Sony is geting these chips at a deal.buy in bulk get a deal

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    They say PS4's raw graphical power is somehow comparable to a US$200 PC videocard... well, that if you take the numbers literally, but this is a new architecture so they aren't comparable.

    Where they hands down failed is where they said game developers aren't used to programming to multiple weak cores... Heck...It should be a walk in the park for them after not only dealing with weak cores (Cell) but also with an asymmetric model. Even being a new platform, devs are having much less trouble optimizing their games for PS4 than the PS3 after 6 years of experience on it.
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    well, It's not a 7850 it's more like a 7860 because it's not close to a 7870. Either way, the developers know how to program for it and I highly doubt if it was hard watchdogs wouldn't look nearly as good on it. My main point here is that I will listen to what the developers say and so far all the developers I've heard and nothing but good things to say about the PS4. I'll just come right out and say this right now....This gen is going to really open up a can of $#@! towards certain developers. Certain developers that lean more towards microsoft, Sony or both. If you see games coming out that look better on the xbox it's clear what type of developer said company is. This next set of consoles for developers will either show their passion in developing games or they will end up being a big joke.

    We are going to see a lot of passion I think, while a few companies will show their stupidity.
    Last edited by Bigdoggy; 03-04-2013 at 02:09.

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    Didn't they say that the PS3 had 1.2TFLOPs but devs weren't able to reach it in reality? Something about them calculating TFLOPs in a different way than the standard.

    I wouldn't read too much into those specs especially since all it's using is it's comparative performance to the PC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquanox View Post
    They say PS4's raw graphical power is somehow comparable to a US$200 PC videocard... well, that if you take the numbers literally, but this is a new architecture so they aren't comparable.

    Where they hands down failed is where they said game developers aren't used to programming to multiple weak cores... Heck...It should be a walk in the park for them after not only dealing with weak cores (Cell) but also with an asymmetric model. Even being a new platform, devs are having much less trouble optimizing their games for PS4 than the PS3 after 6 years of experience on it.
    I say you have a good point, and therein lies the genius of having AMD work with Sony. We're taking developers who have years of design experience working with multithreaded game design and essentially putting them in the X86 space. These guys are crazy talented and a lot of them have experience working with esoteric stuff like the Emotion Engine, even.

    I think point 5 was right on the money. This is going to change the entire ecosystem of gaming. Sony is essentially unleashing some of the most brilliant minds in programming on a whole new canvas. This could have VERY interesting consequences for Sony, AMD and Microsoft. You're going to see two whole generations of propellerhead developers be able to leverage games on PC that are wholly independant of Direct X, after all.

    Microsoft may rue the day they started disrupting the Playstation business


    Quote Originally Posted by aayman_farzand View Post
    Didn't they say that the PS3 had 1.2TFLOPs but devs weren't able to reach it in reality? Something about them calculating TFLOPs in a different way than the standard.

    I wouldn't read too much into those specs especially since all it's using is it's comparative performance to the PC.
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    Last edited by Lefein; 03-04-2013 at 04:09.

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    To the topic creator. What is your avatar? It seems its from the Assyrian empire.


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    @ Syphon_Filter

    Close, but its from Sumerian, older then Assyrian, what you see there is the GOD ANU, WAS GOD OF THE ANUNNAKI, The Sumerians warship them as gods, and wrote about them in cuneiform scripts, the world's oldest writing system, and called them, "those who from heaven to Earth came"

    Are you Assyrian?
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    If it comes on at 500 + sony can $#@!in forget it. Not a sniff i will buy a ps4 until price cut.

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    PS4's processor performance? No matter how you slice it, it's weak. From what i read on b3d/neogaf Sony wanted a Bulldozer class CPU, which would've been leagues better than this one, but they were forced into choosing this one. Did not understood exactly why, something related to the fabrication factories ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by baho View Post
    PS4's processor performance? No matter how you slice it, it's weak. From what i read on b3d/neogaf Sony wanted a Bulldozer class CPU, which would've been leagues better than this one, but they were forced into choosing this one. Did not understood exactly why, something related to the fabrication factories ...
    Bulldozer is leagues better then this one? Oh boy...
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    It doesnt really matter, the gpu is running the show. The cpu is more than adequate.



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    I still wonder if the PS4 only has one GPU, why on earth did they make this patent recently?

    http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...DN/20120320068

    Graphics processing in a computer graphics apparatus having architecturally dissimilar first and second graphics processing units (GPU) is disclosed. Graphics input is produced in a format having an architecture-neutral display list. One or more instructions in the architecture neutral display list are translated into GPU instructions in an architecture specific format for an active GPU of the first and second GPU.

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    No matter how we look at it, PS4 will do just fine, like the PS3 did, many people bashed PS3 and said that it wont do this and that, and at the end, we all seen the likes of Uncharted and god of war graphics, and yes i know PC will all ways be faster and better then PS4 in graphics, because we can go to a computer shop and buy new Video Card, and new CPU and RAM etc. but that dosent mean we the PC gamers going to have the best graphics all the time, its up to the developers to make that happen, for example, did any of you play the first Crysis on PC? and do any of you know when Crysis came out on PC? it was released in November 2007 that's one year afterPS3 lunch, and till now there's no game on any console, not even the new kill zone on PS4 will get close to the graphics of Crysis on PC 6 years ago, but we needed lots$$ to get it running on hi res and smooth.
    Last edited by sony1978a; 03-04-2013 at 14:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyClaw View Post
    I still wonder if the PS4 only has one GPU, why on earth did they make this patent recently?

    http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...DN/20120320068
    Ive wondered that to for awhile now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisw26308 View Post
    Ive wondered that to for awhile now.

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    I know it is a crazy ass long shot, but I am hoping they surprise us at E3 saying the PS4 will have a discrete GPU on top of the one built into the APU!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aayman_farzand View Post
    Bulldozer is leagues better then this one? Oh boy...
    PS4's cpu is a low power solution, that says it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baho View Post
    PS4's cpu is a low power solution, that says it all.

    Why do people always forget about the fact that it's customized. The specs you got from Jaguar are not the same specs for the PS4 version of Jaguar, they are two completely different CPU's. Even the one coming out for the PC later on which was announced from AMD is going to be a stripped down version. The fact alone that the specs for the PS4 specifications of the CPU isn't even released yet. All people know is that it's X86 with the name Jaguar on it, AMD already said they never made a chip like this. The chip you are comparing it to is not the same CPU.

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    You guys seem to know what you's are talking about...

    Is the PS4 powerful enough for 1080p 60FPS games? Or are we looking at another gen of 90% of games being 30fps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw3d Genius View Post
    You guys seem to know what you's are talking about...

    Is the PS4 powerful enough for 1080p 60FPS games? Or are we looking at another gen of 90% of games being 30fps?
    You will always have 30fps games. That is a developers choice. They seem to chose to push more graphical effects over higher frames per second.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw3d Genius View Post
    You guys seem to know what you's are talking about...

    Is the PS4 powerful enough for 1080p 60FPS games? Or are we looking at another gen of 90% of games being 30fps?
    It probably depends on the developers this time around, I am sure the system is more than capable of producing 1080p graphics @ 60fps, but developers tend to skimp on resolution and/or frame rate so they can include more eye candy into the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdoggy View Post
    Why do people always forget about the fact that it's customized. The specs you got from Jaguar are not the same specs for the PS4 version of Jaguar, they are two completely different CPU's.
    No they are not. They are exactly the same CPU. The PS4 just has twice as many cores, but internally there is virtually no difference at all other than that.

    Even the one coming out for the PC later on which was announced from AMD is going to be a stripped down version.
    ROFLMAO.

    Kabini is coming out for the workstation with integrated graphics market. These are $500 PCs. Yeah, it's 'stripped down' compared to the PS4 because it's made for the corporate budget machine market, not gaming.


    But stripped down compared to a Vishera 4.4GHZ 8 core Piledriver CPU with an 8000 series GPU????????? Don't make me laugh.


    The fact alone that the specs for the PS4 specifications of the CPU isn't even released yet. All people know is that it's X86 with the name Jaguar on it, AMD already said they never made a chip like this. The chip you are comparing it to is not the same CPU.
    AMD never said they've never made a chip like this, they said they've never made an APU this powerful. An APU is a CPU and GPU COMBINED.

    They've got Jaguar chips in retail production going into retail products that go on sale starting next week. The difference is the GPU, NOT the CPU. The PS4 is a Jaguar CPU paired with an 8000 series GPU more in line with proper desktop PCs, and no other Jaguar based APU is. THAT is the difference, not the CPU.




    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw3d Genius View Post
    You guys seem to know what you's are talking about...

    Is the PS4 powerful enough for 1080p 60FPS games? Or are we looking at another gen of 90% of games being 30fps?
    Only if they strip down the graphics and/or do not include AA or AF.

    There isn't enough bandwidth to do a lot of shader effects, 1080p resolution, 60 FPS, 4X MSAA, and 16X AF, no matter how powerful the APU and GPU are. There just isn't.

    So sacrifices will have to be made. Most likely many games will still be 720p native and upscaled to 1080p. Other routes may be taken, but that's the one that causes the least sacrifices in fidelity and frame rate. Otherwise they could drop the AA and AF, lower the frame rate to 30, etc... But with the bandwidth it has there will still be sacrifices made.
    Last edited by Completely Average; 03-04-2013 at 18:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    No they are not. They are exactly the same CPU. The PS4 just has twice as many cores, but internally there is virtually no difference at all other than that.



    ROFLMAO.

    Kabini is coming out for the workstation with integrated graphics market. These are $500 PCs. Yeah, it's 'stripped down' compared to the PS4 because it's made for the corporate budget machine market, not gaming.


    But stripped down compared to a Vishera 4.4GHZ 8 core Piledriver CPU with an 8000 series GPU????????? Don't make me laugh.




    AMD never said they've never made a chip like this, they said they've never made an APU this powerful. An APU is a CPU and GPU COMBINED.

    They've got Jaguar chips in retail production going into retail products that go on sale starting next week. The difference is the GPU, NOT the CPU. The PS4 is a Jaguar CPU paired with an 8000 series GPU more in line with proper desktop PCs, and no other Jaguar based APU is. THAT is the difference, not the CPU.






    Only if they strip down the graphics and/or do not include AA or AF.

    There isn't enough bandwidth to do a lot of shader effects, 1080p resolution, 60 FPS, 4X MSAA, and 16X AF, no matter how powerful the APU and GPU are. There just isn't.

    So sacrifices will have to be made. Most likely many games will still be 720p native and upscaled to 1080p. Other routes may be taken, but that's the one that causes the least sacrifices in fidelity and frame rate. Otherwise they could drop the AA and AF, lower the frame rate to 30, etc... But with the bandwidth it has there will still be sacrifices made.

    Wow and lame, if you are going to spurt facts show the proof right now. Show me where the only thing different is 4 cores. that is completely ridiculous and I haven't heard such nonsense on here for a long time. Nice try but you are very wrong.

    If you think they just took a jaguar off the shelf and added 4 cores and that's all they did, well that's just silly and lame. One thing I've noticed here is you are always in here pushing your opinion as facts but you haven't backed one thing up. So show me actual proof that the only difference is 4 extra cores.

    Also, an APU is a chip just using different words here, you should know better. o.O

    See, the different here is the CPU part can still be tweaked and would still hold the name jaguar. I will laugh like hell if you are actually thinking the "jaguar" is going to be in the PS4 running at 1.6Ghz ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Bigdoggy; 03-04-2013 at 18:17.

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    Sony has only released vague info about the CPU inside the PS4, so until they come forward with more concrete info there is no telling how customized the APU is actually going to be. I don't expect it to be like the standard Jaguar core since that just wouldn't make sense to throw the generic design in there, I would assume that is based on that design, but heavy modified for the console.

    -=[ PSN ID: Tha_MonkeyClaw ]=-

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