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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    None of us are shareholders (although frankly I'm starting to wonder) so what the hell do you care about what a money making behemoth MS are? They're an anti-consumer corporation and deserve every bit of negative press they've ever had and more. Clearly one person in this thread finds it painful that his favourite multinational company has a bad reputation. Aww diddums.
    What. What does this have to do with the thread at hand? This is about Sony and their appearance that they're fighting hard this round. All that's been pointed out is that we've seen this before, and that's it's too early to shout victory for them. We saw Sony lose tremendous ground even when they held several perks above Microsoft's and Nintendo's head. This is a fact. You guys need to stop ignoring reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    And acting as if the PS3 is some kind of dirty mistake? Sod off, the PS3 is currently the best console on the market and has been since '07.
    No one ever said this. You are being unreasonable and fallacious. What was stated is that the PS3 did not meet the expected success foretold at the start of this generation. Honestly, the reading comprehension displayed in this thread is hurting me.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    People were very $#@!y over the PS3 and look at how that turned out..... a dead heat with Xbox 360 7 years later. Not exactly anything to be $#@!y about now is it?
    While I do have your back here, Koaster, these sort of ending comments really don't play well. And you know it.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    What. What does this have to do with the thread at hand? This is about Sony and their appearance that they're fighting hard this round. All that's been pointed out is that we've seen this before, and that's it's too early to shout victory for them. We saw Sony lose tremendous ground even when they held several perks above Microsoft's and Nintendo's head. This is a fact. You guys need to stop ignoring reality.



    No one ever said this. You are being unreasonable and fallacious. What was stated is that the PS3 did not meet the expected success foretold at the start of this generation. Honestly, the reading comprehension displayed in this thread is hurting me.



    While I do have your back here, Koaster, these sort of ending comments really don't play well. And you know it.
    Nobody is struggling with basic literacy, Rapture.

    Although I'd question your comprehension if you really think he makes strong and valid arguments. His modus operandi is to mock Sony for his its "failure" and to rage against their apparent arrogance.

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  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Nobody is struggling with basic literacy, Rapture.
    I literally just pointed out an example. You're just wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Although I'd question your comprehension if you really think he makes strong and valid arguments. His modus operandi is to mock Sony for his its "failure" and to rage against their apparent arrogance.
    That's a difference of opinion, not comprehension. I don't see any mocking or rage (in this thread) towards Sony. What I see if him legitimately pointing out that we shouldn't be calling the winner before the race has begun. This is entirely reasonable in and of itself. His arguments consisted of examples and excuses that are governed in reality, such as the unexpected soaring sales of the Wii, or the loss of ground Sony suffered to Microsoft despite having stronger perks on their side.

    I'm sorry, but you're failing to be convincing whatsoever. Even if Koaster's agenda here is ill (not saying it is or isn't), this does not remove the arguments he has raised. You guys can shake your heads all you want, but it doesn't change the established facts here. Your little group of shield-holders doesn't do anything. Stop and think for a moment.

  5. #29
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    I'm not trying to convince you. And no you didn't point out an example.

    Your posts are as pretentious as ever, I see that hasn't changed much. Established facts, brilliant.

  6. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    And no you didn't point out an example.
    I did. But whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    And acting as if the PS3 is some kind of dirty mistake?
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Your posts are as pretentious as ever, I see that hasn't changed much.
    Ah. So now we're getting personal? This is likely due to you being incapable of responding to me in kind. No, I'm not being pretentious. I'm simply stating my opinions and thoughts about this. If you truly find my posts to be pretentious, then it seems that I am better at this than I am too mature to admit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Established facts, brilliant.
    Well, yes. The Wii's sales were largely unexpected, and Sony was holding many advantages over Microsoft; brand recognition, core fanbase, more first-party developers and IP's, better hardware technology, etc. Do you deny these things? If so, then we cannot possibly continue this further for you have then abandoned reality. If you do not deny these things, then why do you seem to be overlooking or knocking them aside entirely? Clearly this is some fault of your own and others, then.

  7. #31
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    Sony has their head screwed on right this generation.
    Last edited by mickice; 03-27-2013 at 15:55.

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  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickice View Post
    Sony has their head screwed on right this generation.
    Yep, right now with the way things look, all signs point to WIN!

    -=[ PSN ID: Tha_MonkeyClaw ]=-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Koaster makes very reasonable and strong points. He's stating it's not wise to make sudden and new predictions of success when we've seen implored fanbase promise fail before. Microsoft has clearly encroached and stolen ground from the supposedly rock-solid PlayStation brand. Don't forget all the articles and gamers in 2006-2008 espousing the age of glory the PS3 would eventually bring in -- history has proven to us the potential of fallibility. Please, let's not renew the mentality of shutting down anything that isn't fully glorifying Sony and their products. I say that to the entire forum.
    You know, people also said that looking at the past generations, we're not going to have a generation longer than 5-6 years. Look for the rest of my response below.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    I think you are being way too hard on Sony. I don't think they $#@!ed up nearly as bad as people say. They made a couple minor missteps, but nothing even coming close to losing 4 out of 5 PS2 users over. Other than being arrogant the first couple years and some weird marketing.... it still doesn't come even close to explaining that level of exodus.
    Really? $599, did not lower its price for a long time, did not come out in EU for a year and a half after 360, delayed almost all games in the first two years, missing developer support for the first few years, getting $#@!ty ports due to it, on top of that even when we did get a decent port, it was still inferior most of the time.

    XMB while simple had many missing features i.e. unified online structure, including x-game chat...did not even get in-game xmb for 2 years, did not come out with their standard games that Sony fans loved, for...3-4 years...you guys have no idea how pissed off I was of Sony up until 2010. Look at my history of threads I've made around that time.

    Pretty sure those are not a couple of minor missteps or a little bit of fault.

    This is what you guys don't understand but also do bring up a good point. Yes, Sony has gone back to the ways they were in PS1 but in today's world so obviously that's going to be more things.

    However, what you guys don't get is why that's a big deal. No one has ever been able to duplicate the way Sony was back when they first came out with the PS1 (maybe Nintendo with the handhelds?). MS 'til this day has not done anything close to that as far as developer-friendly.

    So, looking at MS' strategy and what they've done so far, and the rumors, they have pretty big shoes to fill. You have free online that has the features that we need as gamers, you have indie games coming in, developers speaking out that they are liking the way Sony is going, the momentum definitely seems to be with Sony at the moment.

    Now, granted, we still don't know what MS has to offer, that's true but whatever they come out with, they will have fierce competition. Again, the rumors about their focus on things other than games is true and from what a couple of developers have hinted so far, Sony will be in a better position for gamers.

    So Sony going back to its ways is a big deal, it doesn't just mean that they're doing what they should've, their shoes have never been quite filled since they left.

    I'd say it's a little bit of Sony's fault, a lot to do with MS upping their game and maybe even that mysterious "fickle" factor that has hit major brands of all kinds. Look at Sears, Kmart, Hostess foods, etc etc... they were big brands for decades and yet faltered.

    I agree things are looking good for PS4 and Sony. I don't take issue with that. It's the "PS4 has next gen dominated"-type $#@!iness that was also exhibited with the PS3 announcement that turns me off. People like optimism in people..... nobody likes $#@!iness in people no matter what the subject matter.

    People were very $#@!y over the PS3 and look at how that turned out..... a dead heat with Xbox 360 7 years later. Not exactly anything to be $#@!y about now is it?
    MS definitely upped their game no doubt, they've brought some wonderful innovations in online services for gamers. I think that was the key in their success in NA and EU. They've also made some mistakes, as not going after being a more open platform, trying to find a way to keep online free and free-riding their way to the next generation as long as they were showing profits.

    But it was Sony that practically handed them the lead themselves. You can't $#@! up more than Sony did the beginning of this generation. Had I known, I would have kept the 360 from launch right up until 2011 and then gotten a PS3 afterwards.
    Last edited by Omar; 03-27-2013 at 17:06.

  10. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    You know, people also said that looking at the past generations, we're not going to have a generation longer than 5-6 years. Look for the rest of my response below.
    I'm not sure how this correlates at all. If your point is that predictions can fail, then all that does is back up what Koaster and I have been saying.

  11. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I'm not sure how this correlates at all. If your point is that predictions can fail, then all that does is back up what Koaster and I have been saying.
    But I'm also giving reasons why they can fail. Of course any prediction can fail, the point is that there is generally evidence or trend.

    So there was trend this generation that it would be longer but people didn't believe it. As for Sony not being #1 this generation, we wouldn't have known anything until Sony had screwed up everything almost entirely for a couple of years. Even the most pro-360 fans say themselves they didn't expect all of it to this extent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    You know, people also said that looking at the past generations, we're not going to have a generation longer than 5-6 years. Look for the rest of my response below.

    Really? $599, did not lower its price for a long time, did not come out in EU for a year and a half after 360, delayed almost all games in the first two years, missing developer support for the first few years, getting $#@!ty ports due to it, on top of that even when we did get a decent port, it was still inferior most of the time.

    XMB while simple had many missing features i.e. unified online structure, including x-game chat...did not even get in-game xmb for 2 years, did not come out with their standard games that Sony fans loved, for...3-4 years...you guys have no idea how pissed off I was of Sony up until 2010. Look at my history of threads I've made around that time.

    Pretty sure those are not a couple of minor missteps or a little bit of fault.

    This is what you guys don't understand but also do bring up a good point. Yes, Sony has gone back to the ways they were in PS1 but in today's world so obviously that's going to be more things.

    However, what you guys don't get is why that's a big deal. No one has ever been able to duplicate the way Sony was back when they first came out with the PS1 (maybe Nintendo with the handhelds?). MS 'til this day has not done anything close to that as far as developer-friendly.

    So, looking at MS' strategy and what they've done so far, and the rumors, they have pretty big shoes to fill. You have free online that has the features that we need as gamers, you have indie games coming in, developers speaking out that they are liking the way Sony is going, the momentum definitely seems to be with Sony at the moment.

    Now, granted, we still don't know what MS has to offer, that's true but whatever they come out with, they will have fierce competition. Again, the rumors about their focus on things other than games is true and from what a couple of developers have hinted so far, Sony will be in a better position for gamers.

    So Sony going back to its ways is a big deal, it doesn't just mean that they're doing what they should've, their shoes have never been quite filled since they left.


    MS definitely upped their game no doubt, they've brought some wonderful innovations in online services for gamers. I think that was the key in their success in NA and EU. They've also made some mistakes, as not going after being a more open platform, trying to find a way to keep online free and free-riding their way to the next generation as long as they were showing profits.

    But it was Sony that practically handed them the lead themselves. You can't $#@! up more than Sony did the beginning of this generation. Had I known, I would have kept the 360 from launch right up until 2011 and then gotten a PS3 afterwards.
    First of all.... I don't know why you are quoting the $599 price when there was the $499 20GB model that runs PS3 games just as well. It lacked wi-fi, card readers, HDMI port and silver trim, but it played the games in HD over component just fine. It may not be the model hardcore gamers wanted, bu it played PS3 games and Blu-Ray movies for joe average. So there was an option.

    As for the praise being heaped on the PS4 by devs? Look back at the dev comments in the press after both the PS2 and PS3 announcements. Telling us how excited they were about the system specs, how Sony is on the ball, how great their relationships are with Sony, how Sony is about the games.... ETC ETC ETC. Same $#@!, different console. It's nice and all.... but it's not indicative of momentum cuz if that were the case, PS3 wouldn't be in it's current situation.

    And the parallels don't end there. You mention the lack of games on the PS3 in it's first 2 years? The PS2 had the same drought of games too and yet that console seemed to do just fine. Also... the PS2 launched 13 months after Dreamcast in Europe AND at a higher price and yet still whooped Dreamcast despite PS2 having much fewer games then Dreamcast.

    In terms of PS3 ports? Blame Sony for making a hard to program CPU.....AGAIN. And even then, the ports were usually pretty serviceable. There were usually only minor framerate issues, occasional stuttering and less saturated colors then the 360. Certainly not so bad to make a PlayStation fan jump ship over to the 360.

    As for the PS3 missing dev support the first few years? That's because the software attach rates on the consoles being sold was low. That's why software publishers and retailers came to the conclusion that people were buying up PS3 for it's Blu-Ray player. For quite sometime it was the cheapest Blu-Ray player available. The same EXACT thing happened to the PS2 in it's first year or two. The PS2s were selling well but the software attach rates showed they were being bought as DVD players as well. The increase in both DVD and Blu-Ray sales in the PS2 and PS3's first years also confirmed this phenomenon. That's not Sony's fault.

    In terms of people waiting for games they wanted to come to PS3? Other than Halo, Forza and Fable.... what franchises was Xbox 360 drowning in? None of those titles even came out in the 360's first year. Forza 2 came out 18 months, Halo 3.. 22 months and Fable 2.. 35 months after the release of the 360. Gears of War was released 12 months later. So the 360 had a major drought itself.

    When it comes to the XMB and PSN? They were behind the 360 in terms of features, but it's games at the end of the day that bring people to a platform. Not online features. And PS3 had the advantage of free online gaming.

    As for what we've heard so far that Sony is more concentrated on the games with PS4 then the Xbox 720? The PS3 always had more IPs and more 1st party exclusive devs then the Xbox 360 and yet the 360 keeps chugging along. In the USA it's spent it's 26th straight month as the top selling console. This after it's been derided for ignoring the core gamer by Sony fans.

    Every year Sony fans have harped on the Xbox 360 about something. And when that said harped on talking point doesn't seem to be affecting the 360's sales, they find something new the following year to harp on hoping IT will be the thing that does the 360 in. The latest talking point is Kinect is saving the 360 and they've ignored the core gamer. Well as the software sales show, the core gamers are still buying their games. Even if it's 3rd party, they keep buying. Nothing trumps a negative talking point like good console and software sales.

    So no...Sony didn't hand them the lead. No more then Sony handing Nintendo the lead when it came to the Wii, the DS and the 3DS. Microsoft had a ton of their own $#@! ups like the RROD PR disaster. So you can say it's cuz Sony $#@!ed up all you want, but it doesn't even come close to explaining the mass exodus from the Playstation brand.

    I can see Sony's $#@! ups making their lead over the Xbox 360 only 4:1 or 3:1...... but DEAD EVEN in the last year of an EXTENDED console cycle???..... nope. Doesn't make sense. That's why I think it has a lot to do also with the "fickle" factor that hit Sears, Kmart, JC Penny, Hostess foods, etc etc. Just look how quickly Motorola went from one of the top selling phone makers to not. Even though they had Android phones, they still fell. Google ended up buying the company on the cheap.

    So like I said.... Sony's mistakes can't even come close to explaining such a level of exodus.
    Last edited by GreatSpaceKoaster; 03-28-2013 at 04:50.

  13. #37
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    "So now they're going hard, man. It's pretty cool, on all points. I think that it will be really interesting to see what Xbox fires back with. It'll be an awesome E3. Sony is just like, 'GO! GO! GO! Let's make this hardcore! Let's get all these devs in and let's make it as good as we can.'"

    Furthermore, Sony is going beyond simply approving projects to offer more direct support to independent developers like Zombie. "They could have just been like, 'Yeah, put it on the PlayStation 4. Cool,'" Jared told me. "But they're sending us kits, they're sending us everything, they're pulling us into PR groups, they're setting up these events for us, and it's just awesome."



    It's so good to hear that, even from a gamers standpoint because what this shows is that Sony is in it bigtime for the indie developers. I remember with the PS1, there were so many indie devs making games and it's what brought us games like Silent Hill and stuff. The fact that Sony is doing a lot of the muscle work for the indie devs (like I posted in quote), "they're sending us kits, they're sending us everything, they're pulling us into PR groups, they're setting up these events for us"


    Last edited by Bigdoggy; 03-28-2013 at 21:30.
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  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    First of all.... I don't know why you are quoting the $599 price when there was the $499 20GB model that runs PS3 games just as well. It lacked wi-fi, card readers, HDMI port and silver trim, but it played the games in HD over component just fine. It may not be the model hardcore gamers wanted, bu it played PS3 games and Blu-Ray movies for joe average. So there was an option.
    lol do you know how many 20GB consoles sold? Less than 10%. Do you know what was the most-selling 360 console? Arcade. Thank you sir.

    As for the praise being heaped on the PS4 by devs? Look back at the dev comments in the press after both the PS2 and PS3 announcements. Telling us how excited they were about the system specs,
    Yes, true but most of them were Sony's own developers. PS3 specs got a lot of flack from very big developers...which was unfair but in retrospect, they weren't all that far from truth.

    how Sony is on the ball, how great their relationships are with Sony, how Sony is about the games.... ETC ETC ETC. Same $#@!, different console. It's nice and all.... but it's not indicative of momentum cuz if that were the case, PS3 wouldn't be in it's current situation.
    You're right however they broke that promise and actually didn't do much in the beginning, just let it ride by itself.

    However, they've since changed things around and have proven themselves to be better than that and being the better of the competition as far as support. So I have gained that trust back and seeing how they're coming along with PS4, it seems like their arrogance is much less and are thinking purely about developers rather than their own gain (i.e. winning a format war, wanting the console to do too many things which raises the price and games get hurt in the way financially and aesthetically).

    And the parallels don't end there. You mention the lack of games on the PS3 in it's first 2 years? The PS2 had the same drought of games too and yet that console seemed to do just fine. Also... the PS2 launched 13 months after Dreamcast in Europe AND at a higher price and yet still whooped Dreamcast despite PS2 having much fewer games then Dreamcast.
    Yes but Dreamcast did a horrible job with their support and they didn't have a killer niche (aka Live for MS).

    In terms of PS3 ports? Blame Sony for making a hard to program CPU.....AGAIN. And even then, the ports were usually pretty serviceable. There were usually only minor framerate issues, occasional stuttering and less saturated colors then the 360. Certainly not so bad to make a PlayStation fan jump ship over to the 360.
    I agree with that. But it definitely gave a bad image. I don't think it was that big of a deal.

    As for the PS3 missing dev support the first few years? That's because the software attach rates on the consoles being sold was low. That's why software publishers and retailers came to the conclusion that people were buying up PS3 for it's Blu-Ray player. For quite sometime it was the cheapest Blu-Ray player available. The same EXACT thing happened to the PS2 in it's first year or two. The PS2s were selling well but the software attach rates showed they were being bought as DVD players as well. The increase in both DVD and Blu-Ray sales in the PS2 and PS3's first years also confirmed this phenomenon. That's not Sony's fault.
    No that is Sony's fault because they added the Blu-ray player which made the cost go up and thus losing their base, thus losing support. Not to mention, PS2 recovered as there was no competition...Dreamcast was out quickly and MS was just starting out, we won't even talk about GCube, PS2 had all this momentum built by then and Japanese games were more popular back then. Microsoft clearly wanted a western console and were there too early. I certainly didn't care about Live back then when we had more features than Live in SOCOM 2.

    In terms of people waiting for games they wanted to come to PS3? Other than Halo, Forza and Fable.... what franchises was Xbox 360 drowning in? None of those titles even came out in the 360's first year. Forza 2 came out 18 months, Halo 3.. 22 months and Fable 2.. 35 months after the release of the 360. Gears of War was released 12 months later. So the 360 had a major drought itself.
    PS3 was competing with 360's Gears of War, Bioshock, Halo 3, Forza 2, a more playable version of COD4 (since in-game XMB wasn't out yet and PSN was $#@!ty back then) when PS3 had first-generation games (that were delayed, supposedly out by launch window lol) and did not have the quality or momentum of 360 games, you gotta high priced console that's good for playing movies at this time.

    When it comes to the XMB and PSN? They were behind the 360 in terms of features, but it's games at the end of the day that bring people to a platform. Not online features. And PS3 had the advantage of free online gaming.
    Yes sir but look at when PS3 started getting games, did you forget? The first true good game they got was MGS4 which came out in mid 2008. That's horrible. That's when we got in-game XMB, I remember clearly. NA/EU has shown that it's online features that we want or Vita/PS4 wouldn't have seen such a big push for Xbox-live-like features. I can't believe you'd downplay that lol. Without Live 360 would be nothing. But it'd still be better than Nintendo's consoles.

    As for what we've heard so far that Sony is more concentrated on the games with PS4 then the Xbox 720? The PS3 always had more IPs and more 1st party exclusive devs then the Xbox 360 and yet the 360 keeps chugging along. In the USA it's spent it's 26th straight month as the top selling console. This after it's been derided for ignoring the core gamer by Sony fans.
    More like trying to stay afloat. Look at the sales (I keep repeating this to everyone here) and look for yourself how the sales of 360 were in NA/EU before Kinect was out. You don't get that big of a boost when games are actually slowing down.

    Every year Sony fans have harped on the Xbox 360 about something. And when that said harped on talking point doesn't seem to be affecting the 360's sales, they find something new the following year to harp on hoping IT will be the thing that does the 360 in. The latest talking point is Kinect is saving the 360 and they've ignored the core gamer. Well as the software sales show, the core gamers are still buying their games. Even if it's 3rd party, they keep buying. Nothing trumps a negative talking point like good console and software sales.
    This is a very complicated point. You'll have to look at all data to see how things are going for each console. We had reports from EA and a few other publishers a while back that PS3 was making them more money even with lower user base.

    The thing about Kinect is true, look at the sales during 2010. I think a bigger reason why people keep with the 360 is because it just works better as a console for those people that like online services. That I can understand. Though to look at a small change is difficult as we're so far into the generation. Someone can pick up a 360 or a PS3 and not even care about the differences as there are too many games to choose from.

    That's not how it will be for the next-generation and I'm not saying MS won't come out with exclusives. All I'm saying is that it's hard to see the change when the console is doing so well. It's the same fallacy that some businesses do where they think everything is fine as long as there are profits showing...well, that's not the entire picture, what matters is what you could've had, not that you're in the positive.

    So if 360 had more exclusives coming out, it's possible that we may have seen better sales than what are showing.

    So no...Sony didn't hand them the lead. No more then Sony handing Nintendo the lead when it came to the Wii, the DS and the 3DS. Microsoft had a ton of their own $#@! ups like the RROD PR disaster. So you can say it's cuz Sony $#@!ed up all you want, but it doesn't even come close to explaining the mass exodus from the Playstation brand.

    I can see Sony's $#@! ups making their lead over the Xbox 360 only 4:1 or 3:1...... but DEAD EVEN in the last year of an EXTENDED console cycle???..... nope. Doesn't make sense. That's why I think it has a lot to do also with the "fickle" factor that hit Sears, Kmart, JC Penny, Hostess foods, etc etc. Just look how quickly Motorola went from one of the top selling phone makers to not. Even though they had Android phones, they still fell. Google ended up buying the company on the cheap.
    Did you forget world economy? Don't forget also that Sony always lowered their price first last generation (not including GC for obvious reasons), and always sold it cheaper than the Xbox. It wasn't nearly that this generation, in fact, MS had a huge difference in its entry price and gave out massive bundles/discounts compared to PS3. They failed on the price factor hard in the worst time of world economy since the great depression...probably worst as that was only in the US. Price was a huge factor (thus why Blu-ray was more damaging than help).

    So like I said.... Sony's mistakes can't even come close to explaining such a level of exodus.
    I agree with that. They still should not have done this bad. I never said it was all due to their $#@! ups, MS also did a tremendous job with their innovations and deals. Sony still came out a winner in my book in the end but I was very skeptical of them up until 2011...probably longer.

    I just can't agree that everything's going the same way it did with PS3...there's definitely a new magic about their new approach. It's not just PS3 fans saying this but seems like a good chunk of the development community...in fact, I haven't heard one thing bad other than this dev saying that they should've gone with something more experimental as their controls...which is more like bleh opinion.

    I do think MS will beat Sony in services, no doubt, but how much of that is going to be for gamers and how that will pan out? I'm definitely skeptical. Because their focus definitely seems to be (with what devs have hinted and what rumors say and what makes sense to me) on services rather than purely a gaming machine and so they're putting themselves in a risk that might just work or might not. Time will tell. It depends on what those services are. Maybe they're all game-related and if that rings with the gamers once again then yea, we might see a similar generation but with less $#@! ups on both sides (probably way less from Sony).

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    i think sony will take back the #1 spot

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    lol do you know how many 20GB consoles sold? Less than 10%. Do you know what was the most-selling 360 console? Arcade. Thank you sir.
    Ah.. no. The core didn't become a big seller until 2010 when it included the 4GB flash memory on board. In fact retailers like Gamestop were reporting that premiums were vastly outselling core/arcade models. Why? Cuz all the gaming press and forum posters were steering people towards the premium cuz the add on memory cards weren't gonna cut it....especially for DLC. Also cuz of the fact of buying a core and then buying Microsoft's expensive hard drive later ended up more expensive then if you had bought the premium to begin with.


    Yes, true but most of them were Sony's own developers. PS3 specs got a lot of flack from very big developers...which was unfair but in retrospect, they weren't all that far from truth.
    The only complaints devs had about the PS3 in the beginning was the price. Otherwise they were praising the inclusion of Blu-Ray, the XDR memory, HDMI, free online, etc.. It wasn't until later that the devs started complaining about how hard the Cell was to program.


    You're right however they broke that promise and actually didn't do much in the beginning, just let it ride by itself.
    What promise did Sony break?

    Yes but Dreamcast did a horrible job with their support and they didn't have a killer niche (aka Live for MS).
    Dreamcast did a horrible job with support? How? Just look at this list of titles released in it's short lifetime. Not exactly lack of support.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dreamcast_games

    Sega only started dropping support when hardware and software sales dropped considerably because of the PS2 hype-train. Kinda hard to keep pumping money into something when the sales are drying up on everything. No sales... no money coming in for you to fork out.

    And it did have a killer niche like Xbox Live. It included a 56k modem with every console and had the FREE Seganet for online gaming. Although not the first console in history to allow online gaming, it was the first to include it with every console. That's why most of the gaming press credits the Dreamcast as the first console to bring online gaming truly to the masses...not the PS2 or Xbox.

    I agree with that. But it definitely gave a bad image. I don't think it was that big of a deal.
    You can't get much of a worse image then Microsoft's RROD problem. Arguably the worst PR disaster in gaming console history.... and yet people kept buying the 360 regardless. Didn't hurt that they offered to fix and ship them for free with an extended 3 year warranty if they RROD. But if there was anything that you'd think would send people over to the PS3, it was the RROD. The fact is... the exodus from the 360 never occurred.


    No that is Sony's fault because they added the Blu-ray player which made the cost go up and thus losing their base, thus losing support. Not to mention, PS2 recovered as there was no competition...Dreamcast was out quickly and MS was just starting out, we won't even talk about GCube, PS2 had all this momentum built by then and Japanese games were more popular back then. Microsoft clearly wanted a western console and were there too early. I certainly didn't care about Live back then when we had more features than Live in SOCOM 2.
    The PS2 launched at a $100 higher price then the Dreamcast cuz it included an expensive DVD drive instead the much cheaper, slightly modified CD format of the Dreamcast. Sony was shoving an expensive new format drive on it's fanbase and yet they still came over in droves. If you are a Playstation FAN, then you don't go anywhere else. Especially if Sony supposedly knows the hardcore gamer and gives them what they want. That transfer of the PS2 fanbase to the PS3 didn't really happen. Otherwise how else do you go from 5:1 over Xbox to 1:1 with the 360?


    PS3 was competing with 360's Gears of War, Bioshock, Halo 3, Forza 2, a more playable version of COD4 (since in-game XMB wasn't out yet and PSN was $#@!ty back then) when PS3 had first-generation games (that were delayed, supposedly out by launch window lol) and did not have the quality or momentum of 360 games, you gotta high priced console that's good for playing movies at this time.
    Again... those games you mentioned came way after the 360 released and yet it kept it's momentum up prior to and after the PS3's launch. That still doesn't explain why a huge PS1 fanbase was willing to jump AND even INCREASE in numbers to the PS2 with it's expensive DVD drive based console....only to lose it's fanbase in droves going to yet ANOTHER console they decided to add an expensive new format drive into....the PS3. We can't even be confident that the PS3 will reach even the PS1's 102 million installed base. Especially with the PS4 almost here. The PS2 had the legs.... but it's 50/50 as to if the PS3 will stand as long as the PS2 did.

    Also... during that same period, Sony had more IPs and first party devs to compete with against the 360 then Microsoft did against the PS3.

    Yes sir but look at when PS3 started getting games, did you forget? The first true good game they got was MGS4 which came out in mid 2008. That's horrible. That's when we got in-game XMB, I remember clearly. NA/EU has shown that it's online features that we want or Vita/PS4 wouldn't have seen such a big push for Xbox-live-like features. I can't believe you'd downplay that lol. Without Live 360 would be nothing. But it'd still be better than Nintendo's consoles.
    So how long was it until Xbox 360 started getting games too? Gears of War was the first big game and it came out 12 months after launch. Then it wasn't until about a year after that when the likes of Forza 2 Halo 3 and Bioshock came out. 360 had plenty of a games drought itself.

    Also remember that when a lot of those highly hyped games and new IPs came to PS3 finally as you say... a lot of titles didn't sell so well now did they? Even though they had plenty of console owners to buy them.

    Without Live the 360 would be nothing?!?!? Almost HALF of it's 77 million console base doesn't get on Xbox Live. They said Xbox Live has 40 million members.... of which only 50% are paying Gold members. That means about 20 million out of 77 million are actually playing online. When 37 million of your 77 million aren't even going on as free silver members..... how is Xbox 360 nothing without Live? Especially when PS3 has free online.

    I suppose I could say without Sony's FREE online they would be nothing. But that would be just as untrue.

    More like trying to stay afloat. Look at the sales (I keep repeating this to everyone here) and look for yourself how the sales of 360 were in NA/EU before Kinect was out. You don't get that big of a boost when games are actually slowing down.
    Trying to stay afloat...... would be nothing without Live.... a price drop seen as desperation.... they are paying devs for timed title or DLC... counting replacement consoles as sold... etc etc etc. Why is Microsoft always dismissed for everything they do right to help their console chug along in sales?

    Like I said before.... whenever Sony does something right that increases or maintains sales (price drop, bundles, exclusive DLC, release the Move, etc etc) it was hailed as brilliant and how they need to do that more often. BUT... every time Microsoft does the same, it is called desperate and scared? Who would you call more desperate and scared.... the company with the console that's ahead and had a smaller previous fanbase to draw from.... or the one that dropped their price first and was behind, despite having 5 times the previous fanbase to draw on then it's competition?

    This is a very complicated point. You'll have to look at all data to see how things are going for each console. We had reports from EA and a few other publishers a while back that PS3 was making them more money even with lower user base.

    The thing about Kinect is true, look at the sales during 2010. I think a bigger reason why people keep with the 360 is because it just works better as a console for those people that like online services. That I can understand. Though to look at a small change is difficult as we're so far into the generation. Someone can pick up a 360 or a PS3 and not even care about the differences as there are too many games to choose from.

    That's not how it will be for the next-generation and I'm not saying MS won't come out with exclusives. All I'm saying is that it's hard to see the change when the console is doing so well. It's the same fallacy that some businesses do where they think everything is fine as long as there are profits showing...well, that's not the entire picture, what matters is what you could've had, not that you're in the positive.

    So if 360 had more exclusives coming out, it's possible that we may have seen better sales than what are showing.
    Doesn't matter if it was through some particular games or through a piece of add on hardware like Kinect... they got the sales. As they say in the movie business.... you need to get butts in the theater seats. Well Microsoft is getting those butts in the seats. Had the Sony Move been as big of a hit, it would be praised around here instead of being constantly dismissed. But again.. Sony=Brilliant Microsoft=Desperate

    Did you forget world economy? Don't forget also that Sony always lowered their price first last generation (not including GC for obvious reasons), and always sold it cheaper than the Xbox. It wasn't nearly that this generation, in fact, MS had a huge difference in its entry price and gave out massive bundles/discounts compared to PS3. They failed on the price factor hard in the worst time of world economy since the great depression...probably worst as that was only in the US. Price was a huge factor (thus why Blu-ray was more damaging than help).
    The world economy? You're gonna use that excuse? In the middle of a recession, Apple managed to launch the $499 MINIMUM priced iPad and sell MILLIONS despite buyers already owning perfectly good laptops or desktops at home. And not only that....they sold those millions without consumers being able to rely on a phone company to help heavily subsidize their purchase like they could with the iPhone. Full price baby! And the recession didn't even start until almost a year after the PS3's release.

    So no... the recession card isn't gonna fly here. If people want something bad enough, they will buy it DESPITE a recession. Apple proved that. And that's selling a product Apple has a huge markup on while Sony was losing money on every purchase of a PS3 for most of it's life.

    I agree with that. They still should not have done this bad. I never said it was all due to their $#@! ups, MS also did a tremendous job with their innovations and deals. Sony still came out a winner in my book in the end but I was very skeptical of them up until 2011...probably longer.

    I just can't agree that everything's going the same way it did with PS3...there's definitely a new magic about their new approach. It's not just PS3 fans saying this but seems like a good chunk of the development community...in fact, I haven't heard one thing bad other than this dev saying that they should've gone with something more experimental as their controls...which is more like bleh opinion.

    I do think MS will beat Sony in services, no doubt, but how much of that is going to be for gamers and how that will pan out? I'm definitely skeptical. Because their focus definitely seems to be (with what devs have hinted and what rumors say and what makes sense to me) on services rather than purely a gaming machine and so they're putting themselves in a risk that might just work or might not. Time will tell. It depends on what those services are. Maybe they're all game-related and if that rings with the gamers once again then yea, we might see a similar generation but with less $#@! ups on both sides (probably way less from Sony).
    Agreed....Sony has done much better this time with the PS4.

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    my goodness, just drop the $#@! guys. All this is ending up is a war to see how long of a post you guys can pull out of your bums.
    She put the lime in the coconut, she drank them both up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coconut_Crunch View Post
    my goodness, just drop the $#@! guys. All this is ending up is a war to see how long of a post you guys can pull out of your bums.
    It's actually a good debate on console history. It's become pretty civil... so I don't see the problem. Just scroll past it or put us on your ignore list.

    I'm rather enjoying it. No insults... no attacking personally. Just a good old fashion debate!

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    Usually it's wasted time trying to sway unmoveable point of views. Minutes you'll never get back, minutes that could have been spent gaming...But this is fairy good.

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    well, it's not like they all know what they're talking about anyway. haha
    Last edited by Coconut_Crunch; 03-29-2013 at 14:50.
    She put the lime in the coconut, she drank them both up.

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