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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    To be fair, there are a lot of other complex emotions that animals lack. Opinion or this complex way of judgment is the by-product of the extent of our intelligence.
    That doesn't make it right.

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    I have made my point on this very clear and then some... But i love this thread and i hope it stays open, but the fear is that we will just go in circles in here and get no where
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    This really is a great thread. Originally I had answered too literally to what the original question posed. But now I see where you were really going with this. Sir Scud sums up my feelings pretty damn well. Only, he is saying it a hell of a lot better than I ever could lol. I know as I was reading the thread, I'd see a post that I wanted to make a rebuttal, only to continue reading and see that he had already posted it
    So +rep to you Mr. Scud
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  5. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by claud3 View Post
    I have made my point on this very clear and then some... But i love this thread and i hope it stays open, but the fear is that we will just go in circles in here and get no where
    But everything has been civil thus far, so there's hope that it does stay open
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I wasn't implying this was you actually saying these things. You laid the topic out for everyone to see and I made my response to it.
    No I mean, youíre misunderstanding the discussion. Weíre not discussing if $#@!sexuality would lead to incest but rather if $#@!sexuality is allowed then why couldnít we at some point allow other things as well, that are similar in concept (in an abstract sense)Öbeing that if it doesnít harm anyone, is consensual and feels right then why should we judge?

    I already made my points about this in the last two paragraphs of my post. I think it's wise for society to be open and flexible to change as long as we can ensure it's consensual and safe (within the best context and conditions of the world at that time).

    So in other words, you would vote for incest/pedophilia if it ever came down to debate?
    Quote Originally Posted by R3D D3V!L View Post
    That doesn't make it right.

    Iím not saying it makes it right. Iím just saying that with the existence of it, you are bound to run into its disadvantages. i.e. a car can take us places but also can crash and kill us/others. If an African tribe said that theyíre a better species than you because they donít have car crashes (note: letís say they donít have cars), what will you say?

  7. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    So in other words, you would vote for incest/pedophilia if it ever came down to debate?
    I'd 'support' incest because I see nothing egregious with it, and technically all it does directly is offer people more freedoms. If a part of the population wanted incest legal, then why not? Clearly then our society is under different circumstances than what it is now. Two consenting adults is two consenting adults, and their private lives are their business.

    I couldn't ever support pedophilia though. I say this because it actually is harmful. Pedophilia implies it's younger people that are having sex. There's a size difference, and psychologically sex at a younger age can haphazardly affect people. They're physically not ready for it.

    Now, teenagers are biologically inclined to have sex (as naturally humans don't live very long), so it's very normal in that event. However the problem for both teens and young children is the issue of responsible consent. Most of them are simply not mature to make these sort of decisions, and legally it really should be forbidden until they're a bit older and more mature. Hell, factually speaking teenagers still have developing brains, and they're statistically irresponsibly impulsive. Once they become adults then they can $#@! whoever they want, as long as it's another adult and it's consensual.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 03-28-2013 at 21:36.
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    You can't have it both ways.

    The basis that gay marriage should be allowed is if these two people love each other, then let them be together. Well if your first cousin loves your other first cousin, you need to let them be together. I find the people who say gay marriage is right, but incest is wrong are hypocrites. You bring up science in stating, "Well their child will have genetic problems and medical problems". So okay, how come you can't bring up science and say, "These two men being together, they cannot reproduce." Then you got people bringing animals into this, that animals are $#@!sexual in the wild. Well, did you know animals commit incest in the wild? It's just like Rapture said, it takes time for incest to do that to children any way.

    In my humble opinion, neither incest nor gay marriage is right. Gay marriage is an abomination to our Lord God and it states this in the Bible. However, I will say this, I do not know the view of the Bible on incest. Someone else who knows the bible better than me should come in. If the bible were to have no problem with incest, then I'd have no problem with it either.

    I hate it when people bring animals in on this. We're not animals, we're humans. If we're superior to animals, than we are superior to animals. If we're not, we're not. Make up your mind! You can't have it both ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    You can't have it both ways.

    The basis that gay marriage should be allowed is if these two people love each other, then let them be together. Well if your first cousin loves your other first cousin, you need to let them be together. I find the people who say gay marriage is right, but incest is wrong are hypocrites. You bring up science in stating, "Well their child will have genetic problems and medical problems". So okay, how come you can't bring up science and say, "These two men being together, they cannot reproduce." Then you got people bringing animals into this, that animals are $#@!sexual in the wild. Well, did you know animals commit incest in the wild? It's just like Rapture said, it takes time for incest to do that to children any way.

    In my humble opinion, neither incest nor gay marriage is right. Gay marriage is an abomination to our Lord God and it states this in the Bible. However, I will say this, I do not know the view of the Bible on incest. Someone else who knows the bible better than me should come in. If the bible were to have no problem with incest, then I'd have no problem with it either.

    I hate it when people bring animals in on this. We're not animals, we're humans. If we're superior to animals, than we are superior to animals. If we're not, we're not. Make up your mind! You can't have it both ways.
    you made a good point but i wouldn't say that because they can't produce that they shouldn't be together...there are other issues when it comes to male-on-male but you do bring a good point. I'm not going to bring religion into this because not everyone follows religion, sect or even same views within that particular sect.

  10. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaY_210 View Post
    But everything has been civil thus far, so there's hope that it does stay open
    It will be civil, it's the fear of going around in circles with the same arguments be repeated


    I think who are we too judge anyone, be it incest or $#@!sexuality etc..... The world has not changed what so ever.... It is still $#@!ed up and weird

    What makes that so different from the centuries off normality
    Last edited by claud3; 03-28-2013 at 21:51.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I'd 'support' incest because I see nothing egregious with it, and technically all it does directly is offer people more freedoms. If a part of the population wanted incest legal, then why not? Clearly then our society is under different circumstances than what it is now. Two consenting adults is two consenting adults, and their private lives are their business.

    I couldn't ever support pedophilia though. I say this because it actually is harmful. Pedophilia implies it's younger people that are having sex. There's a size difference, and psychologically sex at a younger age can haphazardly affect people. They're physically not ready for it.

    At 11? Where is the evidence that the affect is any different with someone their age? I have heard of 11-12 year olds have sex. How is it any different if it’s with someone a little older? Say 16. They could both have similar bodies, generally it’s not the case but it is possible.

    We’re going in a lot of detail now but I’d to see anything that suggests that there are adverse effects in a sexual relationship between a couple of age 11 and 15 being different than 11 and 16.

    These are all opinions. We’ve set a limit, put in some medical data and voila, you have these laws in place. Just because they haven’t been contested, doesn’t mean they can’t be. Likely they never will be but the holes are there.

    Now, teenagers are biologically inclined to have sex (as naturally humans don't live very long), so it's very normal in that event. However the problem for both teens and young children is the issue of responsible consent. Most of them are simply not mature to make these sort of decisions, and legally it really should be forbidden until they're a bit older and more mature. Hell, factually speaking teenagers still have developing brains, and they're statistically irresponsibly impulsive. Once they become adults then they can $#@! whoever they want, as long as it's another adult and it's consensual.


    So we should stop all kids from having sex until 18? What gives you that right? Those teenagers feel that it’s right for them to $#@! when they feel it’s the right time to $#@!

  12. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    The basis that gay marriage should be allowed is if these two people love each other, then let them be together. Well if your first cousin loves your other first cousin, you need to let them be together.
    I agree with this. If the argument is "let those that love each other love each other," then this can apply to incest. However...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    You bring up science in stating, "Well their child will have genetic problems and medical problems". So okay, how come you can't bring up science and say, "These two men being together, they cannot reproduce."
    I'm not how these two correlate. It's one thing to say "This can bring harm to a child" and another to say "These two cannot naturally have children." This implies then that the purpose or lover and marriage is simply to reproduce, which seems unnecessary and obtuse to me. This would also mean someone who is infertile or chooses not to have children cannot be married.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    In my humble opinion, neither incest nor gay marriage is right. Gay marriage is an abomination to our Lord God and it states this in the Bible. However, I will say this, I do not know the view of the Bible on incest. Someone else who knows the bible better than me should come in. If the bible were to have no problem with incest, then I'd have no problem with it either.
    I'm not trying to turn this into a religious debate, but you should examine your beliefs some.

    “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
    Actually, this verse isn't because $#@!sexuality itself is bad. The reason of this is because, at the time, it was believed the sperm of a man was an actual living thing (the baby), and for a man to have sex with another man was to spill and waste his seed. That's the actual context behind it. This is also why, commonly, masturbating is looked down on in religious families and society's, and also why God once struck a man dead for fapping. And before you bring up Sodom and Gomorrah, know that $#@!sexuality was actually never mentioned as a reason for its destruction.

    So unless you actually believe that sperm itself is valuable, you may want to rethink your stance on gays. Not to mention this verse comes from Leviticus, which also forbids wearing fabrics woven of two different materials, yet people today don't have any qualms with that. I mean no offense, but Christians cherry-pick the Bible a lot. If this is the case, then why not at least accept the love between two people? What do you think Jesus would want you to do?

    Also keep in mind that the Romans, the society that accepted Christianity and spread it to begin with, was open and even encouraging of $#@!sexuality (as were the Greeks). In fact the prejudice against gays is a fairly recent social development, happening only with the last couple of centuries. It really is something we as a society should stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    I hate it when people bring animals in on this. We're not animals, we're humans. If we're superior to animals, than we are superior to animals. If we're not, we're not. Make up your mind! You can't have it both ways.
    Humans are animals. We're just animals with very superior cognitive abilities, which does help set us apart from the other animals in numerous ways.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 03-28-2013 at 22:06.
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  13. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    You can't have it both ways.

    The basis that gay marriage should be allowed is if these two people love each other, then let them be together. Well if your first cousin loves your other first cousin, you need to let them be together. I find the people who say gay marriage is right, but incest is wrong are hypocrites. You bring up science in stating, "Well their child will have genetic problems and medical problems". So okay, how come you can't bring up science and say, "These two men being together, they cannot reproduce." Then you got people bringing animals into this, that animals are $#@!sexual in the wild. Well, did you know animals commit incest in the wild? It's just like Rapture said, it takes time for incest to do that to children any way.

    In my humble opinion, neither incest nor gay marriage is right. Gay marriage is an abomination to our Lord God and it states this in the Bible. However, I will say this, I do not know the view of the Bible on incest. Someone else who knows the bible better than me should come in. If the bible were to have no problem with incest, then I'd have no problem with it either.

    I hate it when people bring animals in on this. We're not animals, we're humans. If we're superior to animals, than we are superior to animals. If we're not, we're not. Make up your mind! You can't have it both ways.
    Do not take this as a personal attack Black Wolf, but as a way of considering your opinion on this matter:

    You claim not to know the Bible's views on incest (although surely a Christian should know everything in the Bible), and say 'but if it supported it, so would I'. Does that mean you support everything in the Bible? How about stuff from the Old Testament? Can't you see how blindly following any religious book casts a question mark over one's character and reasoning abilities? Is it not better to develop our own ideas based on compassion, reason and evidence, instead of being enslaved to a morally outdated book?

    Two men can't reproduce, so what? They are not harming anyone else by being together. However, reproduction through incest can bring harm to someone else - the offspring. Although as Rapture correctly pointed out, it does take generations.

    The world is not black and white - not taking the nuances of situations into account is futile.

    As for being animals, we are. The word 'animal' means 'having breath'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    So we should stop all kids from having sex until 18? What gives you that right?
    ... I didn't say that. What I said is that we should protect them from older people seeking to take advantage of the poor judgement skills children and teens have. Teenagers are going to have sex with teenagers no matter what. It's perfectly normal. It's up the the parents to talk to them about it when they feel the time is right, though. And this is also why sex education is important, so we can prevent teen pregnancies and the spreading of STDs.

    Sex isn't a bad thing. It's a part of our species. Teens are going to have sex because they're physically enabled to do it. All we need to do is promote a safer environment for them.
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    Here if i was to say i was GAY, BI or SLEEPING with my sister. Would it change your opinion of me

    THIS is just a question
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    ... I didn't say that. What I said is that we should protect them from older people seeking to take advantage of the poor judgement skills children and teens have. Teenagers are going to have sex with teenagers no matter what. It's perfectly normal. It's up the the parents to talk to them about it when they feel the time is right, though. And this is also why sex education is important, so we can prevent teen pregnancies and the spreading of STDs.

    Sex isn't a bad thing. It's a part of our species. Teens are going to have sex because they're physically enabled to do it. All we need to do is promote a safer environment for them.
    Those are all good points but then we’re back to zero. If there’s a girl who wants to have sex with a 20 year old or whatever you think is old enough to call it pedophilia, if both are consenting, they aren’t endangering everyone around them so while it’s our opinion that a child should be old enough to make that decision (because you are creating double-standards when it comes to child-on-child), who are we to say anything if those two people have consented?

    Again, I’m not saying that you’re wrong, I also agree with you but I’m just pointing out that it’s our opinion. Although I can also argue that younger kids shouldn’t have sex either but that’s beside the point and I can’t force my opinions on others.

    EDIT: I meant to add, scientifically, kids develop completely by age 10-11. After that, it's the fact that they're inexperienced, not that they can't think for themselves...well they can't because that's usually the case but they're capable.

    So whatever laws we have is to prevent kids from being targeted as you correctly mentioned, but scientifically they should be capable of making their own decisions which is why psychologists/researchers call it pedophilia before age 11. So the laws are based on our opinions.
    Last edited by Omar; 03-28-2013 at 23:27.

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    His statement is as legitimate as saying heterosexuality is a slippery slope to $#@!sexuality.

    To put it another way, bull$#@!.
    Last edited by *goo; 03-28-2013 at 22:31.

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    Incest is wrong and disgusting, $#@!sexuality is not. That's never going to be an issue.

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    do not know what else can be added too this

    $#@!SEXUALITY IS NORM, BUT INCEST IS WRONG AT A CERTAIN LEVEL....
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    Never had a problem with gay marriage. I'm not sure how two people of the same sex doing their own thing is going to change anyone else's life. Whatever though, haters be hatin. Incest? None of my business. Don't want to know and don't $#@!ing care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by claud3 View Post
    do not know what else can be added too this

    $#@!SEXUALITY IS NORM, BUT INCEST IS WRONG AT A CERTAIN LEVEL....
    If you're still thinking that then we haven't learned anything lol. The point is that nothing is wrong as long as it doesn't harm people outside of consent.

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    It only harms people on the outside, when the outside thinks it's harmful
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    Quote Originally Posted by claud3 View Post
    It only harms people on the outside, when the outside thinks it's harmful
    I'm saying, as long as you're not going out and screwing your family members without consent, it should be fine because that's how we define $#@!sexuality.

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    Sexual abuse is a different matter... To define $#@!SEXUALITY is simple, it is normal and it is not linked to incest
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    Quote Originally Posted by claud3 View Post
    Sexual abuse is a different matter... To define $#@!SEXUALITY is simple, it is normal and it is not linked to incest
    I'm sorry, that came out wrong. I was trying to respond to, "It only harms people on the outside, when the outside thinks it's harmful"
    In the context that we're calling it harmful is when someone without consent is involved or that you're harming a child in the process or an unsuspecting person.

    Being harmful is wrong.

    Of course, that's the whole point, $#@!sexuality is normal but seen as wrong. So why should we see incest as not normal? It's just as normal as $#@!sexuality for people that think that it feels right to them...as long as the two (or however many) think it's right.

    So if they think it's right and no foulplay is going on then what's the difference? They're all the same things including heterosexuality.
    Last edited by Omar; 03-29-2013 at 01:49.

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    Agartha
    PSN ID
    sophieskyrim126Era
    Age
    30
    Posts
    17,608
    Rep Power
    125
    Points
    224 (0 Banked)
    Items Tommy VercettiGTA Claude
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    We do not see INCEST as normal, because of the factors involved

    1, Keeping it in the family

    2. Abuse is an excuse to continue incest

    3. Gene Pool Dilution

    4. Emotional Damaged caused

    5. Who is being incest with who

    This is the only five i could come up with, that relate to the whole wrongness of INCEST
    Plato and Aristotle, a detail of The School of Athens, a fresco by Raphael. Aristotle gestures to the earth, representing his belief in knowledge

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