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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    How I feel about you as a poster on the topic of xbox and what I think of you personally are completely different since I have talked to you in the off topic section before so dont go getting too offended. As for the topic I still havent heard anything that convinces me that MS couldnt upgrade or that these spec rumors are even totally true for that matter. I'll wait and see what MS shows us when they actually reveal their console.
    That's because you don't know anything about this topic.

    Literally, unless MS kept multiple versions of their NextBox with various specs in preparation for what Sony was going to do.. and providing the specs we have now (which we have little reason to question) are legitimate.. There's not much they can do.

    Unless they don't want to release in 2013.

    And I'm not sure why you have garnered that image of me. I haven't had a PS3 in years, only a 360 and a PC. Granted, I preferred the PS3 because I felt it was all around a better value but I kept the 360 because all my friends had it. It's a fun little device, albeit I had to replace it 3 times and I resent the concept of paying just to play online.

    To be sure, I am critical of Microsoft. And why shouldn't I be? There's plenty to be critical about. Sony has taken a 'counter stance' to MS not through some kind of virtue or charitable personality but because it is beneficial for them (emphasizing an 'open' platform, partnering with valve, not charging for online play, etc). I also kind of resent how screwed up DirectX is and what it's done to gaming on the PC scene. And I also think Win8 sucks.

    I may have been a zealot back when I first joined this forum when I was 16, but that's a quarter of a life time ago for me.

    Edit: As for being 'offended', not really. I guess in a small way it kind of hurt but I'm not fuming or anything.

    @Sufi, yes there is a big difference.

    All Sony had to do in this case, more or less, was find someone to supply them with these higher density GDDR5 chips and toss around some numbers for budget reasons (to see if it was worth it). Then they'd look at what the power draw and heat would be and tweak a few things.

    For me, it's curious. 8GB of GDDR5 is certainly far from bad, but they don't really have the bandwidth to use all of it. Unless they beef that up so its north of 200GB\s by a decent margin there's no way that i can think of to practically use that memory outside of caching purposes. Or maybe as Mynd has suggested before they will reserve a large chunk of it for the OS, but I'm not so sure I believe that either.

    A bigger OS would consume more than just memory- it'd need more CPU cycles. Which would require changes.

    Now, I don't know everything that Mr. Cerny does nor am I privvy to all of the ins and outs of the PS4 itself.. Or for that matter am I a hardware engineer.. But if I had the money to throw around during the machine's development, I'd have kept 4GB of GDDR5 and gotten a GPU closer to the 2.4TF range and given it more bandwidth.

    But the principle reason I suspect why this didn't happen was, yes, heat but more importantly power draw. GPU's these days are monstrous and suck up alot of juice.

    Consoles cannot afford to be huge towers with big power supplies guzzling down hundreds of watts.

    So they said "meh let's make sure they're never memory starved!" and that's what they did lol.

    The evolutionary jump from PS3-->PS4 fits prior jumps, if not a little bit more in the memory department, but the specs are a bit weaker vis a vis the PC space than this stuff was back in 2005/2006. Again, mostly heat and power draw has ensured this.

    I'm not really concerned though.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 03-29-2013 at 07:20.


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  3. #27
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    Wouldn't it be pointless to use GDDR5 inside of what's rumored to be in the 720? Isn't the other customized hardware inside of the 720 is to make the DDR3 perform better?

    Edit: found the answer to my own question
    the main takeaway here is that core elements of the Move Engine functionality are apparently designed to extract the best performance from a RAM set-up that is much more complex (and slower) than its Orbis equivalent

    The fact that Durango's Data Move Engines are there at all points to another major difference between the two next-gen platforms: memory, and how data is shuttled around the system.
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df...rango-vs-orbis

    It would seem pointless to scrap the move engine, ect. just to upgrade to gddr5. They would have to go back to the drawing board and that's not going to be cheap and the investors surely wouldn't like such a $#@! up to have happened. That's unless they do have a 720 2.0(so to speak) that they had planned all along.
    Last edited by Two4DaMoney; 03-29-2013 at 08:38.


  4. #28
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    When you think about it, having at least one contingency plan from AMD would make sense. The idea when creating a system is to control cost. AMD may have actually spec'ed out alternatives in their bid for both Sony and Microsoft's business.

    Think of it like.. This chip will cost you this much and this other one that much. They both run under some arbitrary number of degrees.

    I, personally, have been wondering if Sony NOT showing off the console itself when they had the Playstation Meeting was their way of getting some wiggle room in their own right. All anyone had to do was see the box to interpolate what kind of cooling solution they were using or could use.

    At this junction, it is still all up in the air.
    Last edited by Lefein; 03-29-2013 at 10:59.

  6. #30
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    I don't see how adding other things engine or otherwise can make RAM any faster than it is.

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    All this talk simply because Sony revealed their console early and Microsoft didn't. Now we have certain long term members beating the doom and gloom drum on Microsoft over a rumored delay on a previously RUMORED supposed announcement.

    People say they are willing to give MS a fair shake, but when you torpedo MS at every chance on PURE rumors and speculation before the console has even been announced...... fair shake my ass. I have far more respect for those that simply admit they hate Microsoft then those that pretend to be giving them a fair shot.


    Anyways.... I'm not shocked Dice doesn't have final hardware. I remember devs getting the 360 final hardware a mere few months before the console's launch. Can't remember about the PS3 on when the final kits got into devs hands. Maybe someone here will recall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    I don't see how adding other things engine or otherwise can make RAM any faster than it is.
    The esram or edram and such deals with certain task that the ps4 won't have to bother...ehh, check out the link I posted above. It explains it in more detail than I'd be able to


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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    People say they are willing to give MS a fair shake, but when you torpedo MS at every chance on PURE rumors and speculation before the console has even been announced...... fair shake my ass. I have far more respect for those that simply admit they hate Microsoft then those that pretend to be giving them a fair shot.
    I can say, with all honesty, that last gen was their fair chance. Sony laid down and played dead while MS ran them over, yet they couldn't finish the job. Everyone, including the gaming press, has made excuses for them time and again for everything from RRoD to selling Bungie to Kinect. The whole "Let's treat MS with kiddy gloves because they're handicapped compared to Big Mean Sony" days are long over. At least for me. When they raised the Live fees to $60 a year and continued ramming ads down peoples throats, it was a sign. When their first party studios abandoned anything but Kinect titles, it raised the red alert. But when they say stuff like this:
    http://uk.gamespot.com/news/women-ar...signer-6406037
    everyone should be skeptical as hell.

    We played nice.. They showed their true colors. Now it's SSJ4 Lefein time.
    Last edited by Lefein; 03-29-2013 at 16:34.

  10. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    That's because you don't know anything about this topic.

    Literally, unless MS kept multiple versions of their NextBox with various specs in preparation for what Sony was going to do.. and providing the specs we have now (which we have little reason to question) are legitimate.. There's not much they can do.

    Unless they don't want to release in 2013.

    And I'm not sure why you have garnered that image of me. I haven't had a PS3 in years, only a 360 and a PC. Granted, I preferred the PS3 because I felt it was all around a better value but I kept the 360 because all my friends had it. It's a fun little device, albeit I had to replace it 3 times and I resent the concept of paying just to play online.

    To be sure, I am critical of Microsoft. And why shouldn't I be? There's plenty to be critical about. Sony has taken a 'counter stance' to MS not through some kind of virtue or charitable personality but because it is beneficial for them (emphasizing an 'open' platform, partnering with valve, not charging for online play, etc). I also kind of resent how screwed up DirectX is and what it's done to gaming on the PC scene. And I also think Win8 sucks.

    I may have been a zealot back when I first joined this forum when I was 16, but that's a quarter of a life time ago for me.

    Edit: As for being 'offended', not really. I guess in a small way it kind of hurt but I'm not fuming or anything.

    @Sufi, yes there is a big difference.

    All Sony had to do in this case, more or less, was find someone to supply them with these higher density GDDR5 chips and toss around some numbers for budget reasons (to see if it was worth it). Then they'd look at what the power draw and heat would be and tweak a few things.

    For me, it's curious. 8GB of GDDR5 is certainly far from bad, but they don't really have the bandwidth to use all of it. Unless they beef that up so its north of 200GB\s by a decent margin there's no way that i can think of to practically use that memory outside of caching purposes. Or maybe as Mynd has suggested before they will reserve a large chunk of it for the OS, but I'm not so sure I believe that either.

    A bigger OS would consume more than just memory- it'd need more CPU cycles. Which would require changes.

    Now, I don't know everything that Mr. Cerny does nor am I privvy to all of the ins and outs of the PS4 itself.. Or for that matter am I a hardware engineer.. But if I had the money to throw around during the machine's development, I'd have kept 4GB of GDDR5 and gotten a GPU closer to the 2.4TF range and given it more bandwidth.

    But the principle reason I suspect why this didn't happen was, yes, heat but more importantly power draw. GPU's these days are monstrous and suck up alot of juice.

    Consoles cannot afford to be huge towers with big power supplies guzzling down hundreds of watts.

    So they said "meh let's make sure they're never memory starved!" and that's what they did lol.

    The evolutionary jump from PS3-->PS4 fits prior jumps, if not a little bit more in the memory department, but the specs are a bit weaker vis a vis the PC space than this stuff was back in 2005/2006. Again, mostly heat and power draw has ensured this.

    I'm not really concerned though.
    I've been reading plenty on the subject so dont tell me that I dont know anything about it. It all leads back to rumor and speculation. I'm taking the wait and see approach for now. I think thats more reasonable than taking rumors and speculation and treating them like gospel truth.
    Last edited by mistercrow; 03-29-2013 at 17:48.

  11. #35
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    -shrugs- the rumors were 95% accurate on the PS4. And the same rumor(s) concerning Durango have been vetted by multiple individuals including the guys over at DF and B3D.

    That's good enough for me to operate off of. Until proven wrong I will accept what they have to say on the matter. I don't have a vested interest in the Durango being weaker than Orbis, if anything two consoles with closer specs would be better for everybody.

    And if you knew anything about the topic, you wouldn't be saying that what Sony did with the PS4 was a "major revision". It really wasn't. Just a pretty surprising and expensive one.

    So for you to call me out and declare that I'm full of it for saying that MS couldn't drastically change their specs- that's pretty damn telling in my book. You go ahead and maintain hope that they will swap out CPU\GPU or switch RAM types, I'd rather stay rooted in reality.

    I would be pleasantly surprised if the Durango was revealed in a month and it was as powerful as PS4 and that the rumors surrounding it are bogus. But MS doesn't seem to have their focus on that objective, they seemingly have a different strategy. They are putting alot of emphasis on Kinect and seem to be convinced that the appropriate tactic for nextgen is to really push it.

    And that's fine. I would be impressed if Kinect 2.0 could really enhance the core gamer (with a controller) experience. I'm skeptical, and I'd rather have the resources allotted to it (and budget) sunk back into the silicon of the machine, but who knows.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 03-29-2013 at 18:00.


  12. #36
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    I think you guys are reading too much into it. EA must have something set up with MS, along the lines of, 'we get to show first console footage and have a multiplayer reveal at our event'. Heavens forbid they may even have secured next-gen exclusivity for BF4, although I find that unlikely.

    MS haven't delayed their conference because it was never officially announced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    I think you guys are reading too much into it. EA must have something set up with MS, along the lines of, 'we get to show first console footage and have a multiplayer reveal at our event'. Heavens forbid they may even have secured next-gen exclusivity for BF4, although I find that unlikely.

    MS haven't delayed their conference because it was never officially announced.
    Entirely likely as well

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    I think you guys are reading too much into it. EA must have something set up with MS, along the lines of, 'we get to show first console footage and have a multiplayer reveal at our event'. Heavens forbid they may even have secured next-gen exclusivity for BF4, although I find that unlikely.

    MS haven't delayed their conference because it was never officially announced.

    Possible...but highly unlikely. Given EA's reputation with Sony, if they were going to reveal on a platform, it would be a Sony one. Sony has partnered with them big time with releases like Medal of Honor and Battlefield 3.


    In regards to those saying that MS could respec at this time in the game and release this year, you are fooling yourself. If it were a simple RAM fix, then I'd agree, but they'd have to change their entire console architecture in order to upgrade, thus pushing their system launch a year into the future. I say they'll stick with their weaker specs and hammer hard on how awesome Kinect 2 is. Microsoft wants a huge chunk of that Wii casual marketshare....I just hope MS realizes the majority of that market has moved on. They should focus on the hardcore.
    Last edited by unicron7; 03-29-2013 at 18:30.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    That's because you don't know anything about this topic.

    Literally, unless MS kept multiple versions of their NextBox with various specs in preparation for what Sony was going to do.. and providing the specs we have now (which we have little reason to question) are legitimate.. There's not much they can do.

    Unless they don't want to release in 2013.

    And I'm not sure why you have garnered that image of me. I haven't had a PS3 in years, only a 360 and a PC. Granted, I preferred the PS3 because I felt it was all around a better value but I kept the 360 because all my friends had it. It's a fun little device, albeit I had to replace it 3 times and I resent the concept of paying just to play online.

    To be sure, I am critical of Microsoft. And why shouldn't I be? There's plenty to be critical about. Sony has taken a 'counter stance' to MS not through some kind of virtue or charitable personality but because it is beneficial for them (emphasizing an 'open' platform, partnering with valve, not charging for online play, etc). I also kind of resent how screwed up DirectX is and what it's done to gaming on the PC scene. And I also think Win8 sucks.

    I may have been a zealot back when I first joined this forum when I was 16, but that's a quarter of a life time ago for me.

    Edit: As for being 'offended', not really. I guess in a small way it kind of hurt but I'm not fuming or anything.

    @Sufi, yes there is a big difference.

    All Sony had to do in this case, more or less, was find someone to supply them with these higher density GDDR5 chips and toss around some numbers for budget reasons (to see if it was worth it). Then they'd look at what the power draw and heat would be and tweak a few things.

    For me, it's curious. 8GB of GDDR5 is certainly far from bad, but they don't really have the bandwidth to use all of it. Unless they beef that up so its north of 200GB\s by a decent margin there's no way that i can think of to practically use that memory outside of caching purposes. Or maybe as Mynd has suggested before they will reserve a large chunk of it for the OS, but I'm not so sure I believe that either.

    A bigger OS would consume more than just memory- it'd need more CPU cycles. Which would require changes.

    Now, I don't know everything that Mr. Cerny does nor am I privvy to all of the ins and outs of the PS4 itself.. Or for that matter am I a hardware engineer.. But if I had the money to throw around during the machine's development, I'd have kept 4GB of GDDR5 and gotten a GPU closer to the 2.4TF range and given it more bandwidth.

    But the principle reason I suspect why this didn't happen was, yes, heat but more importantly power draw. GPU's these days are monstrous and suck up alot of juice.

    Consoles cannot afford to be huge towers with big power supplies guzzling down hundreds of watts.

    So they said "meh let's make sure they're never memory starved!" and that's what they did lol.

    The evolutionary jump from PS3-->PS4 fits prior jumps, if not a little bit more in the memory department, but the specs are a bit weaker vis a vis the PC space than this stuff was back in 2005/2006. Again, mostly heat and power draw has ensured this.

    I'm not really concerned though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    Wouldn't it be pointless to use GDDR5 inside of what's rumored to be in the 720? Isn't the other customized hardware inside of the 720 is to make the DDR3 perform better?

    Edit: found the answer to my own question
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df...rango-vs-orbis

    It would seem pointless to scrap the move engine, ect. just to upgrade to gddr5. They would have to go back to the drawing board and that's not going to be cheap and the investors surely wouldn't like such a $#@! up to have happened. That's unless they do have a 720 2.0(so to speak) that they had planned all along.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    I think you guys are reading too much into it. EA must have something set up with MS, along the lines of, 'we get to show first console footage and have a multiplayer reveal at our event'. Heavens forbid they may even have secured next-gen exclusivity for BF4, although I find that unlikely.

    MS haven't delayed their conference because it was never officially announced.
    Quote Originally Posted by unicron7 View Post
    Possible...but highly unlikely. Given EA's reputation with Sony, if they were going to reveal on a platform, it would be a Sony one. Sony has partnered with them big time with releases like Medal of Honor and Battlefield 3.
    hmm good points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unicron7 View Post
    Possible...but highly unlikely. Given EA's reputation with Sony, if they were going to reveal on a platform, it would be a Sony one. Sony has partnered with them big time with releases like Medal of Honor and Battlefield 3.
    Wouldn't be the first time EA have screwed over a platform holder though

    I thought their complete absence from Sony's conference was telling. Maybe MS promised them a large part to play in their conference (and or E3) and their condition was don't do Sony's first. Who knows.

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    Yeah I'm sure MS has a deal locked with EA with some form of exclusivity for BF4. I'm sure that's why they didn't come right out and say it was for next gen because they are going to announce a deal at MS reveal. Just what I think is going on. They wouldn't want to steal any thunder away from the MS reveal.




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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    All this talk simply because Sony revealed their console early and Microsoft didn't. Now we have certain long term members beating the doom and gloom drum on Microsoft over a rumored delay on a previously RUMORED supposed announcement.

    People say they are willing to give MS a fair shake, but when you torpedo MS at every chance on PURE rumors and speculation before the console has even been announced...... fair shake my ass. I have far more respect for those that simply admit they hate Microsoft then those that pretend to be giving them a fair shot.


    Anyways.... I'm not shocked Dice doesn't have final hardware. I remember devs getting the 360 final hardware a mere few months before the console's launch. Can't remember about the PS3 on when the final kits got into devs hands. Maybe someone here will recall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post
    and MS can't talk about or reveal their machine because they are respecing.. and Sony can't reveal the final performance target or send out final devkits because they haven't benched final components.

    God this is funny!
    I'n not sure they are respecing as finalising their choices.
    Everything Ive read suggests, (and even their own documents), that they have a highly scalable design.
    The whole design was based on being able to float up or in down in spec's, as required.

    Im still of the opinion that the 720 is certainly minimum dual GPU, possibly dual SOC. There is a lot of what has been leaked that isnt required (display panes) otherwise.


    And I will track this back to this.

    If one GPU or SOC is system locked, then what the devs would get is exactly what the SDK provides.

    However..

    -Compute would be for free (running on the system GPU)
    -Kinect is free (as it is in the leak specs)
    -O/S system is "free" of the game resources meaning the O/s overlays the image with out touching the game GPU)
    -Video remaining etc is all done on the 2nd chip
    -Illumiroom is capable via 2nd GPU

    If you look at MS design papers form 2010, its all about decoupling the game engine/gpu/cpu form the app gpu/cpy.

    I wouldnt bat an eyelid if this system is capable of allowing some one to watch a video (on smart glass or TV) while someone els eplays a a game (on smart glass or TV).

    In many repsects its Wii U plus.

    vs PS4?

    Well then it comes down to a 14cu vs 12cu GPU.

    And we also know MS has some incredibly customs supports for zero stall GPU design.
    I'd say its a wash for games.
    Last edited by mynd; 03-29-2013 at 21:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    I'n not sure they are respecing as finalising their choices.
    Everything Ive read suggests, (and even their own documents), that they have a highly scalable design.
    The whole design was based on being able to float up or in down in spec's, as required.

    Im still of the opinion that the 720 is certainly minimum dual GPU, possibly dual SOC. There is a lot of what has been leaked that isnt required (display panes) otherwise.
    I still hold that they are having to go back to the drawing board about something. Perhaps after seeing the WiiU flop, they are second guessing betting the farm on Kinect? I don't know. It's just awfully, incredibly strange to see a console manufacturer not hold a timeline leading up to a hardware launch. If there hasn't been some radical redesign, then there had to be some kind of minor change that is pushing them back.

    PS4 has come out all guns blazing. Sony has been dominating the news from GDC as well. MS being quiet is, as you WELL know, simply not in their DNA. A lot of people are saying "OMG, teh hidden nukes" but that is simply not how they operate. It makes me wonder if there was some validity to the stories about Sony changing their specs up right before the Playstation Meeting.. Did MS actually try to telegraph Sony's punch and prepare for a low-ball system?

    Time will tell. Every day that MS stays silent about the 720 makes it really look like they just aren't prepared to take Sony on this holiday season.. That or they are playing a completely different ballgame altogether.. as in.. not competing with Sony at all.

  22. #45
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    Or...ms have backtracked after having seen the super awesome ouya tegra 3 based console, and are looking to knock out the 720 for less than 99....? Lol..seriously, its gonna be interesting..very interesting..

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

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    Or it could simply be that one or two of their demos aren't quite ready and the devs would like a few extra days to iron out bugs.

    People need to go back and read their system overview again.

    Again, I say this, I really do believe the specs will be similar to this.

    2 SOC's

    -App (or Games) SOC
    -System SOC

    Game SOC
    -(6-8 core x86)
    -1.2 TF GPU with 12 CU's

    System SOC
    -x86 or even Xenon based
    -1.2 TF GPU 12 CU's
    -Deals with Kinect
    -Deals with "compute"
    -Deals with dash. video apps, web cam etc etc.


    The advantages of making the system SOC Xenon?
    -Built in BC
    -App portability
    -Dash portability.

    Not sure if they will do that however.


    Whoomp there it is:




    What devs get to play with and what we have "leaked" info on is the green bit.
    Last edited by mynd; 03-29-2013 at 22:15.

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    too many theories, let's just wait and see. until then i will enjoy PS4 news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    too many theories, let's just wait and see. until then i will enjoy PS4 news.
    Not really, too many.

    1/ People believe "the bit in green" is all we get.

    2/ Others believe that the early rumors of "two PC's taped together" and MS's own leaked docs.

  26. #49
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    Isn't that graphic super old though? I thought this was some broad stroked plan outlined by MS literally years ago.

    And even if what you're saying is true, according to that graphic, that separate "system" section is reserved for the system only.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Isn't that graphic super old though? I thought this was some broad stroked plan outlined by MS literally years ago.
    Its a very detailed broad stoke plan.
    -Illumiroom has already happened.
    -Smartglass has already happened.

    Most of what is in their is a superset of what we know.

    Yes memory specs etc might change, BC might be dropped, but as a broad stroke plan, I don't have any idea why they would go off course.

    And every thing we have heard so far supports it.(display panes, nui off load, always on, low power mode etc etc)

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