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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I think this has to do with something about the PS4's 8 ACE (Asynchronous Compute Engines) units or something doesn't it?

    Further, the 14+4 split is in contention. Some information coming to light has not supported that division (whatever the actual division is) and claimed it is simply 18 CU's. While others, obviously the one you're referring to (older rumors) state that there is in fact a 14+4 situation.

    Regardless, I'm still unsure about the impact scope of these kinds of changes. They're targeting a 2013 holiday launch, they can't do too much without delaying it.
    After reading the full interview they are indeed referring to apu functionality, these ace's are not much more than a specialised engine that allows direct access to and from the gpu's without
    going through the texture caches (l1 and l2), in other words it opens the gpu up to direct access to memory. 8 of them. Now I've read about this before, in AMD's recent brief regarding apu access. Funny even at that time I think me and lef were talking about how
    Similar the new apu functionality is to cell spu's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    There's a surprise


    Switch the words Microsoft and Sony around you have just described yourself. Exquisitely. Good job


    And again


    Sure does


    Same way you utterly despise Sony, sling fist fulls of mud at them any chance you get and still own some of their products, right? Right.
    How about you quoting ALL this Sony MUDSLINGING I'm supposedly doing. Unlike many here that have THOUSANDS of posts... as of this posting I ONLY have 160 prior posts to go through. So it shouldn't take that long for you to find it.


    The ONLY complaint I've EVER had about Sony is their ARROGANCE. That's pretty much it. I'm not alone. The electronics press has said this for years and even a lot of Sony fans concede this point. I love most of their products and have bought a lot of them.

    Arrogance like telling us stuff like "The next generation doesn't start until we say it does". Talking about how people will work harder in order to obtain a PS3. Or how the PS3 was real HD when the television standards committees said 720p is in fact HD....it's just not 1080i/1080p HD. Still HD folks.

    Other areas of Sony's arrogance...

    Prices: They have charged A LOT more for their products for marginally to moderately improved performance and features over their competition. That's why they have joked for years in Sony television forums that the XBR name on a Sony television stands for Xtra Bucks Required. And that's from people that loved and owned Sony televisions.

    Proprietary Formats: Look at all their proprietary formats that went nowhere.....

    BetaMax: It had a better resolution then VHS, but had less recording time. VHS won with a consortium of manufactures and it's longer recording time. BetaMax only went somewhere in television broadcasting cuz of it's higher resolution for recording events and news stories.

    Digital Audio Tape (DAT): Went pretty much nowhere. Was only used by some in the music industry and as a high density computer data back up medium.

    MiniDisc (MD Disc): Went nowhere...period. Not even the music industry really embraced it.

    Super Audio CD (SACD): Other than a few mainstream artists and a LOT of classical music, nobody released in it. The format went nowhere.

    Memory Stick Duo: Went nowhere for the most part. Was used in Sony products. Secure Digital cards (SD cards) dominated.

    Digital Right Management (DRM): A copy protection method that went down with the public like a lead painted toy made in a Chinese sweatshop.


    Their arrogant "We know better than you" attitude.......


    Emotion Engine (PS2): NEVER consulted devs and made a hard to program CPU cuz they knew better then the devs. Devs complained for years about programing it, but still made games on it cuz they had to if they wanted to pay their bills.

    Cell (PS3): You'd think after all those complaints about the PS2's CPU being hard to program that they would look into finding an easier CPU to put in their next console. NOPE.... cuz they know better then devs once again. Devs got an EVEN HARDER CPU to work with.



    Now FLASH FORWARD to a couple years ago...... They had their marketshare decimated in so many areas of products they make...including videogames. This has HUMBLED THEM and their arrogant attitude seems to have GONE AWAY....(knock on wood). They are NOW listening to the devs. Coming out with the PS4 that ISN"T stuffed with hard to program PROPRIETARY chips.

    THIS IS THE SONY I'VE BEEN WAITING YEARS TO SEE! And I'm liking it. My ONLY complaint about the PS4 was a minor one......no CD support. THAT"S IT...I like EVERYTHING else. They even made the controller a little more Xbox 360 like with better triggers and bigger/longer handles on it. I prefer the Xbox 360 controller so this really helped. I just wished it had offset sticks, but it went a couple steps in the right direction in other areas IMO.


    So if you think I hate Sony and are mudslinging them.... go find the quotes. I just got done IN THIS VERY THREAD giving Lefein a laundry list of things Sony did RIGHT with the PS3 while he was claiming they laid down and died. Imagine that... the so called Sony hater vigorously DEFENDING SONY to an obvious Sony fan.

    So although Sony made a minor mistake here and there (arrogant statements, odd marketing at times), most of how the PS3 turned out wasn't Sony's fault. But you are welcome to join Lefein and overstate Sony's culpability in the PS3's current market share position.

    Anyways.... I looking very forward to the PS4 whether you believe me or not. I own a PS3, a Sony television and will ONLY buy Sony video cameras. I have always loved their products even if I didn't always like their arrogant attitude.
    Last edited by GreatSpaceKoaster; 03-31-2013 at 05:26.

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    Ok, are they arrogant now?

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post

    So if you think I hate Sony and are mudslinging them.... go find the quotes. I just got done IN THIS VERY THREAD giving Lefein a laundry list of things Sony did RIGHT with the PS3 while he was claiming they laid down and died. Imagine that... the so called Sony hater vigorously DEFENDING SONY to an obvious Sony fan.

    So although Sony made a minor mistake here and there (arrogant statements, odd marketing at times), most of how the PS3 turned out wasn't Sony's fault. But you are welcome to join Lefein and overstate Sony's culpability in the PS3's current market share position.

    Anyways.... I looking very forward to the PS4 whether you believe me or not. I own a PS3, a Sony television and will ONLY buy Sony video cameras. I have always loved their products even if I didn't always like their arrogant attitude.
    Wow you must hate Lefein enough to bold his name twice in one post

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Ok, are they arrogant now?
    Not that I can tell. I've not sensed it in a couple years now. Unless somebody can point to something I've missed. That's why I'm really happy. It's like a whole new re-birth of Sony. That arrogant attitude MAY come back. But I'm not gonna give them $#@! UNTIL that happens.

    I'm gonna say Kaz at the helm is helping. I also think it's the marketshare they have lost in everything from videogames to televisions, etc etc. They had this arrogant "we know better then you" attitude for so long. Then the likes of Microsoft, Apple, Samsung, LG, etc etc has taken a lot of their marketshare in a lot of areas. It was time for a reality check and to see what they were doing wrong.

    After ignoring the devs complaints and feedback on the CPUs of the PS2 & PS3, this time they seem to be making a great effort with the PS4. Instead of WE KNOW BETTER..... their new mantra seems to be THE DEVS KNOW BETTER. That's a HUGE turnaround and why I'm excited for Sony and the PS4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serinous View Post
    Wow you must hate Lefein enough to bold his name twice in one post
    I ALWAYS bold forum member names everytime I use them in my post. It's a curtesy I do for those people skimming the thread so they won't at least miss that they are being talked about be it for good reasons or bad.

    And no...I don't hate him. I just wish he'd be honest about how he feels about Microsoft instead pretending he gives MS any kind of a fair shake. It's like a guy who gives out 20 insults for every 1 compliment. Except that compliment has a huge asterisk beside it because it's usually sarcastic, backhanded and not sincere.

    Don't believe me.... go find a sincere one.....EVER.
    Last edited by GreatSpaceKoaster; 03-31-2013 at 09:06.

  6. #81
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    Based on what we "know" from officially from Sony, and VGLeaks.



    PS4=Kabini (CPU) +Trinity (BUSS) (now CONFIRMED)
    720=????? (CPU) +Kaverei (BUSS) (based on VGLEAKS)

    More on Kaverei...

    We were able to take a peek at AMD NDA information (aimed at engineers) that details the technical features of the Kaveri APU. According to this information, Kaveri features a GDDR5 memory interface consisting of four 32-bit memory channels. This is perfectly matching the width of a GDDR5 chip which is also 32-bit. However, the memory controller has to be set up in a way so that two 32-bit channels work in tandem, half-channel use is not supported. The total width is 128-bit, so the main advantage comes from higher clock speeds of GDDR5 memory. This is in addition to the 128-bit DDR3 interface that we already know from previous APUs. Usage of DDR3 and GDDR5 is mutually exclusive.

    While the information we glanced at is clearly preliminary and could be changed till the release of the chip, the focus should be less expensive GDDR5 chips with moderate clock speeds – not the 6GHz hotness you find in high-end graphics cards like GeForce GTX Titan. Specifically the document lists 800 MHz QDR and 850MHz QDR (3200MHz and 3400MHz) clocks which would result with 51.2 GB/s and 54.4 GB/s of system memory bandwidth. Compared to current 25.6 GB/s with the DDR3-1600, this is quite the performance bump. The surprises don’t end there - Kaveri will support DDR3 up to 1250 MHz DDR (2500MHz) – it specifically adds 2400MHz and 2500MHz modes over Trinity, which officially supported up to 2133MHz. Nevertheless GDDR5 would provide a tangible bandwidth improvement and might be the smarter choice given that DDR3 above 1866MHz starts to get prohibitively expensive.

    We can anticipate one potential downside with GDDR5, however. Currently most commonly deployed chips only feature 2 GBit capacity, which translates to 256MB per chip. To fully populate the GDDR5 interface, you need four chips, totaling mere 1GB, which can be considered a bit low for system memory. With two chips per channel we get 2GB, which is still low but starts to get workable. We don't have any hard info on how many chips per channel are possible with GDDR5, on GPUs currently no more than two are used. Either AMD plans to have a crazy amount of GDDR5 BGA soldered to the boards, or they bet on 4 GBit chips which would bring 4GB configurations within reach or the whole GDDR5 support is meant for embedded systems with lower memory requirements. Remember that even Nvidia had to give up on the idea of selling the Tesla K20 card with 12GB memory and had to settle for 6GB. Last year, we talked with representatives from Samsung Memory which refuted the idea of offering higher capacity GDDR5 chips but as the time goes, opinions might change.

    The GDDR5 interface inside Kaveri represents a very interesting option. After Sony made their PS4 announcement (8GB GDDR5), this step actually appeares to be a logical evolution of the APU products. Current APUs feature quite capable GPUs who are hamstrung by low memory bandwidth compared to the entry-level discrete GPUs. Even though GDDR5 memory reduces system flexibility (BGA package has to be soldered to the mainboard), the performance gain may more than make up for that.

    Other changes in Kaveri include a PCIe 3.0 interface, which brings the APU in line with Intel's Ivy Bridge and Haswell CPUs. In addition to the 16 lane PCIe 3.0 interface, Kaveri features eight PCIe 2.0 lanes for general purpose use. The PCIe 3.0 interface can be configured as two x8 interfaces, thus enabling Crossfire or Discrete GPU plus Storage Card (Solid State Cards are gaining in popularity). Four of the PCIe 2.0 lanes are used to connect the Southbridge or Fusion Controller Hub (FCH) as AMD calls it, the other four lanes can be used as four x1, two x2 or one x4 connection.

    We also tried to clarify if Kabini contains a GDDR5 interface as well, which is scheduled to debut around the Computex timeframe. Given that an PS4 uses significantly modified version of Kabini and utilizes GDDR5 memory, such possibility would not be unreasonable. However, from the documents we were able to look at didn't contain any information on such a feature. While this is not a 100% confirmation, Kabini with GDDR5 for the PC market probably won't happen.

    Once the DDR4 memory comes along the advantages of GDDR5 start to diminish again. DDR4 will enable higher densities at comparable speeds as well as upgradeable modules which might be more desirable for customers. More importantly, we view Kaveri GDDR5 as a trial run, first generation part. As we all know, GDDR5 will be replaced with GDDR6 in 2014 timeframe, foreshadow of what might await us down the road: APUs in BGA package soldered to the board with memory soldered to the board and next to no upgradeability. While this is not desirable from an enthusiast point of view, this is what the mass market will inevitably move to in the next few years.

    http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news...ets-gddr5.aspx

    So the PS4 is basically a Trinity based APU bus, with a Kabini (Jaguar) CPU.

    Interesting mix, and truly custom.
    Last edited by mynd; 03-31-2013 at 13:28.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    And no...I don't hate him. I just wish he'd be honest about how he feels about Microsoft instead pretending he gives MS any kind of a fair shake. It's like a guy who gives out 20 insults for every 1 compliment. Except that compliment has a huge asterisk beside it because it's usually sarcastic, backhanded and not sincere.

    Don't believe me.... go find a sincere one.....EVER.
    Hey, now.. I truly meant it when I said a first generation 360 would make a good space heater.


    As far as Mynd's post (back on topic), that is pretty interesting. Seems like MS would be better off going with GDDR4 if they aren't doing any heavy customizing of their own.
    Last edited by Lefein; 03-31-2013 at 13:53.

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    Its an interesting mix, they have basically taken the Trinity APU design, replaced the CPU with the Jaguar "Kabini" CPU, and then proceeded to multiply the Trinity features by 4.

    Whats really interesting is the Trinity onion and garlic buss's. In a very real sense this system is a "split personality" in nature.

    On the one hand its a traditional x86 +GPU.

    On the other its a Cell like chip with 8x "GPU engines" available.

    Multiplatformer's are going to use the former.

    Sony's own devs may exploit the latter.

    Their could be a very real and significant difference between Sony developed games.
    It all really depends if MS is using something similar in "GPGPU" compute functions, if so then they will all ultimately end up down that path (multiplatforms and exclusives).
    Last edited by mynd; 03-31-2013 at 22:36.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Its an interesting mix, they have basically taken the Trinity APU design, replaced the CPU with the Jaguar "Kabini" CPU, and then proceeded to multiply the Trinity features by 4.

    Whats really interesting is the Trinity onion and garlic buss's. In a very real sense this system is a "split personality" in nature.

    On the one hand its a traditional x86 +GPU.

    On the other its a Cell like chip with 8x "GPU engines" available.

    Multiplatformer's are going to use the former.

    Sony's own devs may exploit the latter.

    Their could be a very real and significant difference between Sony developed games.
    It all really depends if MS is using something similar in "GPGPU" compute functions, if so then they will all ultimately end up down that path (multiplatforms and exclusives).
    So does interesting mean bad? Just curious. All this stuff is foreign language to me. Care to put this into dummy explanation for me.




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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    So does interesting mean bad? Just curious. All this stuff is foreign language to me. Care to put this into dummy explanation for me.
    No, lol, no not at all bad. If anything it means as the years go on in, it will stretch its legs beyond traditional x86+GPU constraints.

  11. #86
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    I'm sure there are people who know the final specs of the PS4 since games are being developed for the console as we speak lol.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    No, lol, no not at all bad. If anything it means as the years go on in, it will stretch its legs beyond traditional x86+GPU constraints.
    I look at it as an open book to any developer that got their hands dirty with Cell (and there were a surprising number). I think a lot of those developers that exploited Cell properly are going to want to turn it around sooner rather than later. For the developers that weren't spoiled with X86 development previously (Almost every non-western developer in other words), the PS4 is going to offer an opportunity to hit the ground running against those that were.

    That being said, everything we saw at the Playstation Meeting looked good. Ubisoft's game looked gorgeous, and that was a very good sign to me that there is plenty under the hood if a developer wants to take the more traditional route since Watchdogs main development platform is PC by UBisoft's admission.

    All in all.. I'm anxiously awaiting E3 where some of these games will have had a bit of polishing time as well as the developers now working with the full 8GBs of RAM rather than 4. It's only going to get better from here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    No, lol, no not at all bad. If anything it means as the years go on in, it will stretch its legs beyond traditional x86+GPU constraints.
    I like the sound of that. One thing that I was kind of concerned about is the early top out with the straight forward approach to developing would bring about. I know it is a minuscule complaint but that is one thing that I always liked about consoles is they keep getting that extra out of it the further on the generation goes on. Sounds like that might still be the case if I'm understanding what is going on with this.




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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    I like the sound of that. One thing that I was kind of concerned about is the early top out with the straight forward approach to developing would bring about. I know it is a minuscule complaint but that is one thing that I always liked about consoles is they keep getting that extra out of it the further on the generation goes on. Sounds like that might still be the case if I'm understanding what is going on with this.
    That will happen regardless. That's just a natural progression of efficient coding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    That will happen regardless. That's just a natural progression of efficient coding.
    But even saying that, the top end of what the next batch of consoles can achieve, we may not be able to imagine it. We haven't had such a highly threaded CPU and flexible GPU in a console environment before. BF4 and the latest batch of Unreal 4 vids are really just a taste of what we could get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sajuuk Khar View Post
    But even saying that, the top end of what the next batch of consoles can achieve, we may not be able to imagine it. We haven't had such a highly threaded CPU and flexible GPU in a console environment before. BF4 and the latest batch of Unreal 4 vids are really just a taste of what we could get.
    BF4 is just like...stuck between two generations. I really want to see more like KZ but with all the extra features in BF4 (destruction), it will be perfect.

    BF4 isn't exactly eye candy...for right now maybe...not for next year.

    If KZ was optimized for 2GB...that is freaking insane. I don't even wanna think about it lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    BF4 is just like...stuck between two generations. I really want to see more like KZ but with all the extra features in BF4 (destruction), it will be perfect.

    BF4 isn't exactly eye candy...for right now maybe...not for next year.

    If KZ was optimized for 2GB...that is freaking insane. I don't even wanna think about it lol.

    Oh yeah for sure, once the big engines cut off support for ps3/360, the base line will be shifted up. KZ is a nice taste of what could be done, but still things will improve above that.

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