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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post

    What the hell would you use 64 bits color for?
    Generally its 32 bits (8 bits RGB+Alpha).
    Don't they use larger values internally as to not lose precision?

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    OK so Ive done some digging.....

    Each CU contains dedicated: "-ALU(32 64-bit operations per cycle)
    Now GCN is 4 SIMD, with 16 ALU's per SIMD....

    In GCN these ALUs are organized into a single SIMD unit, the smallest unit of work for GCN. A SIMD is composed of 16 of these ALUs, along with a 64KB register file for the SIMDs to keep data in.

    Above the individual SIMD we have a Compute Unit, the smallest fully independent functional unit. A CU is composed of 4 SIMD units, a hardware scheduler, a branch unit, L1 cache, a local date share, 4 texture units (each with 4 texture fetch load/store units), and a special scalar unit. The scalar unit is responsible for all of the arithmetic operations the simple ALUs can’t do or won’t do efficiently, such as conditional statements (if/then) and transcendental operations.
    So a traditional CU=16x4=64 ALU's
    They call this a 16 wide vector SIMD.

    According to VGleaks, Sony GPU is capable of 32 64-bit ops, which I'm guessing means it has 64 32 bit ops.

    In other words its all normal business here.

    Now with the Durango....

    According to VGleaks, we have a SC vs a CU.

    What the main difference?

    CU=(1x16)x4=64 ALU's
    SC=(4x4)*4=64 ALU's.

    The main difference is these VSP, or the 4x4 part.

    As for Mark Berry, hes just plain ****ing wrong.

    Here is where he goes wrong...

    1. (1)SIMD 64-bits ON 64 threads at once. (PER CYCLE) V.S. (1)CU 64-bits 32 threads at once.
    Incorrect, it even states in the leaked docs regarding 64 bit execution....
    The SIMD instruction set is extensive, and supports 32-bit and 64-bit integer and float data types. Operations on wider data types occupy multiple processor pipes, and therefore run at slower rates—for example, 64-bit adds are one-eighth rate, and 64-bit multiplies are 1/16-rate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion View Post
    Don't they use larger values internally as to not lose precision?
    Internally, sure, but this is to the color buffer! HDR rendering would be the only reason I can think of, actually come to think of it, I'm sure Bungie called for this years ago.
    Last edited by mynd; 04-04-2013 at 01:42.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost-Rhayne View Post
    I thought this had been established already? 720=efficient, PS4=brute force? A system is only as good as the games it gets.
    You've got the right mindset. Let's see how long it lasts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    According to Mark Cerny recent interview, ps4 = efficient also.


    http://www.psu.com/forums/showthread...Japanese-press
    No one said the PS4 wasn't efficient. The argument here is the Xbox 720 being MORE efficient then the PS4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    This is desperate even for you. Look past the fanboy talk? There's nothing left
    How about explaining your beef, instead of doing a drive by attack post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    True and the funny thing is that it is the same thing vice versa lol. That's what we do here on the forums.

    No, that's not how it works. If they didn't respond, it means that they either have something up their sleeves or they don't. That's why it's called a bluff. It doesn't necessarily mean anything definite.

    Otherwise the media would be all over what MS is hiding from us and ignore what Sony has already shown. It's a bluff and they might either have something there or they might not.

    Or a third reason that I believe, which is that they don't want to be in a war that Sony wants them to be in. They want to do their own thing because they might not be ready for a pre-reveal.
    How about none of the above? How about they planned on E3 all along and has nothing to do with bluffing or something up their sleeves. All that happened was that Sony announced the PS4 before E3.

    The speculation at this point is beyond comical. Microsoft has the fans of a competing console making wild assumptions simply for keeping quiet. Geeeez...... I guess silence IS golden!

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    You've got the right mindset. Let's see how long it lasts.



    No one said the PS4 wasn't efficient. The argument here is the Xbox 720 being MORE efficient then the PS4.



    How about explaining your beef, instead of doing a drive by attack post.



    How about none of the above? How about they planned on E3 all along and has nothing to do with bluffing or something up their sleeves. All that happened was that Sony announced the PS4 before E3.

    The speculation at this point is beyond comical. Microsoft has the fans of a competing console making wild assumptions simply for keeping quiet. Geeeez...... I guess silence IS golden!
    Did you see my third point...the one that I personally think?

    Either way, my point to Substance's post was that it doesn't automatically mean they have something up their sleeves, just because they didn't say anything.

    And then I went on to say that they might be doing their own thing...which is what you're saying.

    I personally think that are doing something different than Sony and couldn't care less about what Sony is doing. Just like this generation.
    Last edited by Sufi; 04-04-2013 at 02:32.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Did you see my third point...the one that I personally think?

    Either way, my point to Substance's post was that it doesn't automatically mean they have something up their sleeves, just because they didn't say anything.

    And then I went on to say that they might be doing their own thing...which is what you're saying.

    I personally think that are doing something different than Sony and couldn't care less about what Sony is doing. Just like this generation.
    Well it's kinda more interesting if they do their own thing, instead of simply releasing a clone of the PS4 with Xbox 720 slapped on it. Although if we're honest here....these consoles are gonna be far more similar than different. Both will likely be AMD 8-core APUs and both will likely have 8GB of memory. I say likely cuz the 720 hasn't been announced.

    It's funny how major parts of the rumors didn't come true. The PS4 was supposedly a quad-core and 4GB RAM and the Xbox 720 was supposed to be 16-core and 8GB. It was assumed the 16-core meant it was really an 8-core with 2 threads per core. Now we find out the PS4 is 8-core and 8GB RAM and is using GDDR5 instead of the DDR3 that was assumed. It's also looking like 8-cores for the Xbox 720, but only one thread per core instead of the two threads that was rumored. Plus we heard 3GHz+ on the cores and it appears to be half that on both consoles.

    So while they got couple things right, the rumors were wrong in other ways.

    I do see Microsoft having an advantage by using another Windows based OS again..... since you will have devs working with BOTH Windows AND an x86 chip like they have for almost 20 years based on when Windows '95 came out. I don't really count Windows before that because Windows didn't go mainstream until '95.

  6. #31
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    Can anyone elaborate on what the OP information means? I honestly don't know what I am reading. And can you explain it with layman's terms?

    For example: O2 = Oxygen = the good stuff we breathe to live. I don't care about the O2 or the Oxygen, I care about "the good stuff we breathe to live".

    Anyone here understand the jargon in the OP?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    Well it's kinda more interesting if they do their own thing, instead of simply releasing a clone of the PS4 with Xbox 720 slapped on it. Although if we're honest here....these consoles are gonna be far more similar than different. Both will likely be AMD 8-core APUs and both will likely have 8GB of memory. I say likely cuz the 720 hasn't been announced.
    Yea they might be but I would also like if they did their own thing...that way I might just have a reason to own both. PS3/360 are so damn close, I can't really find a good reason to own both when I barely play exclusives, however Sony does have SOCOM and that's why I have stuck with them so far (which is funny because they ruined SOCOM but that's another discussion).

    It's funny how major parts of the rumors didn't come true. The PS4 was supposedly a quad-core and 4GB RAM and the Xbox 720 was supposed to be 16-core and 8GB. It was assumed the 16-core meant it was really an 8-core with 2 threads per core. Now we find out the PS4 is 8-core and 8GB RAM and is using GDDR5 instead of the DDR3 that was assumed. It's also looking like 8-cores for the Xbox 720, but only one thread per core instead of the two threads that was rumored. Plus we heard 3GHz+ on the cores and it appears to be half that on both consoles.
    I don't know about the rest but PS4 was always supposed to have GDDR5. They just upped the RAM.

    So while they got couple things right, the rumors were wrong in other ways.

    I do see Microsoft having an advantage by using another Windows based OS again..... since you will have devs working with BOTH Windows AND an x86 chip like they have for almost 20 years based on when Windows '95 came out. I don't really count Windows before that because Windows didn't go mainstream until '95.
    The OS being used by the console has nothing to do with game development. It's the CPU that matters. Now they have different ways to approach that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier 95B View Post
    Can anyone elaborate on what the OP information means? I honestly don't know what I am reading. And can you explain it with layman's terms?

    For example: O2 = Oxygen = the good stuff we breathe to live. I don't care about the O2 or the Oxygen, I care about "the good stuff we breathe to live".

    Anyone here understand the jargon in the OP?
    I'm still waiting.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier 95B View Post
    Can anyone elaborate on what the OP information means? I honestly don't know what I am reading. And can you explain it with layman's terms?

    For example: O2 = Oxygen = the good stuff we breathe to live. I don't care about the O2 or the Oxygen, I care about "the good stuff we breathe to live".

    Anyone here understand the jargon in the OP?

    Just know its incorrect. Basically he's assumed 64bit operations where there are none.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Yea they might be but I would also like if they did their own thing...that way I might just have a reason to own both. PS3/360 are so damn close, I can't really find a good reason to own both when I barely play exclusives, however Sony does have SOCOM and that's why I have stuck with them so far (which is funny because they ruined SOCOM but that's another discussion).
    It does come down to console preferences if most things are the same and you don't care much for exclusives. I prefer the Xbox 360 controller. They even have Xbox 360 clone controllers for the PS3 or a device that let's you use a real Xbox 360 controller sans the six-axis support.

    I also prefer Xbox Live over PSN. Especially since most of my friends prefer to play on live even when they have PS3s. More of my friends prefer the Xbox platform in general so that's another reason to make it my primary console. PS4 for exclusives ONLY.

    I don't know about the rest but PS4 was always supposed to have GDDR5. They just upped the RAM.
    I had never heard that one. I thought the big surprise over the memory from the public and dev comments was the fact the memory was GDDR5 and not DDR3? From the reactions it seemed everybody was surprised with the choice. A happy surprise but a surprise none the less.


    The OS being used by the console has nothing to do with game development. It's the CPU that matters. Now they have different ways to approach that.
    The OS can have a lot to do with it. Especially with all it's tools. libraries and overall ease of integration. I remember the days when the difference between Cooperative multitasking and Preemptive multitasking was the OS that supported it.... not just the hardware.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Just know its incorrect. Basically he's assumed 64bit operations where there are none.
    Why is that important? We can't do the rest of the comparison?

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    It does come down to console preferences if most things are the same and you don't care much for exclusives. I prefer the Xbox 360 controller. They even have Xbox 360 clone controllers for the PS3 or a device that let's you use a real Xbox 360 controller sans the six-axis support.

    I also prefer Xbox Live over PSN. Especially since most of my friends prefer to play on live even when they have PS3s. More of my friends prefer the Xbox platform in general so that's another reason to make it my primary console. PS4 for exclusives ONLY.
    Well, I'll be interested to see what NA will think now that the new PSN will have all the features that Live did...which is why I'm anxious to know what MS will do to Live.

    I had never heard that one. I thought the big surprise over the memory from the public and dev comments was the fact the memory was GDDR5 and not DDR3? From the reactions it seemed everybody was surprised with the choice. A happy surprise but a surprise none the less.
    Apparently changing from DDR3 to 5 would be much more difficult than upgrading the RAM.

    The OS can have a lot to do with it. Especially with all it's tools. libraries and overall ease of integration. I remember the days when the difference between Cooperative multitasking and Preemptive multitasking was the OS that supported it.... not just the hardware.
    You're likely talking about the programs within the OS...earlier you had mentioned that it would make the game development easier. The console OS has nothing to do with game development. It's the CPU/GPU chip and architecture and tools that make the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    You're likely talking about the programs within the OS...earlier you had mentioned that it would make the game development easier. The console OS has nothing to do with game development. It's the CPU/GPU chip and architecture and tools that make the difference.
    Well the efficiency and ability of the OS to communicate with the hardware can help or hinder the performance of the game you are developing . If the drivers suck, it's gonna make your game run like suck. That makes development harder because you need to compromise on features or effects to keep a frame rate at acceptable rates cuz of bad or inefficient components of an OS.

    So yes.... what OS is running the hardware CAN hurt or ease the development on that said console.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    Well the efficiency and ability of the OS to communicate with the hardware can help or hinder the performance of the game you are developing . If the drivers suck, it's gonna make your game run like suck. That makes development harder because you need to compromise on features or effects to keep a frame rate at acceptable rates cuz of bad or inefficient components of an OS.

    So yes.... what OS is running the hardware CAN hurt or ease the development on that said console.
    You're describing how an OS can affect a game or game development on a PC. That's not how it works on the consoles. The OS disappears once you run a game...only thing left is the tiny in-game OS. So the only thing that a console OS would affect is the RAM usage of the console and that's usually set for the most part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Why is that important? We can't do the rest of the comparison?
    Well its the basis for the entire comparison.
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    well i guess there's always the next rumor. until then!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    You're describing how an OS can affect a game or game development on a PC. That's not how it works on the consoles. The OS disappears once you run a game...only thing left is the tiny in-game OS. So the only thing that a console OS would affect is the RAM usage of the console and that's usually set for the most part.
    This. It's a very large differentiation between PCs and consoles.
    "The biggest adversary in our life is ourselves. We are what we are, in a sense, because of the dominating thoughts we allow to gather in our head. All concepts of self-improvement, all actions and paths we take, relate solely to our abstract image of ourselves. Life is limited only by how we really see ourselves and feel about our being. A great deal of pure self-knowledge and inner understanding allows us to lay an all-important foundation for the structure of our life from which we can perceive and take the right avenues.

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    Which is another plus for the consoles but at the same time, it takes longer to run a game because it's not running on the fly (meaning the OS is not shutting down and then running the in-game OS, also giving the console its memory back so the game can use it). That's why it takes so long for console games to even start to load up. That part where everything is blank and the disc hasn't started loading yet.

    I wonder how PS4 will deal with it...since they are talking about instant start...would that mean the OS is designed to just quickly disable the features and give the memory back without shutting down? Not sure and I'm not a dev so this is all just based on what it most likely is. I know the memory is given back and that explains why they have to shut the OS down and thus the time between pressing the button to start the game to the time something shows up on screen (logo or loading screen).

    If a game is running right away, that should either mean that the OS (somehow) is designed to keep running while giving back a large chunk of the RAM while running or maybe they're going to have one OS for in-n-out the game...which is probably not likely as that would cause issues with updates in the future...and it would be stupid to reserve extra chunk because that's RAM not being used in-game...or it's possible that the OS will be shutting down much quicker and running the in-game OS quicker too.

    The latter guess sounds most plausible and straight-forward to me and it is possible, seeing Linux operating systems...they can turn on or off in a matter of seconds. Look at Google OS...6 second boot, it's true.
    Last edited by Sufi; 04-05-2013 at 20:50.

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    The 8 GB of GDDR5 and the 6x Blu-ray drive will certainly help. They've still yet to explain all this instant on stuff, but I'm curious to see how it all works together, software- and hardware-wise.
    "The biggest adversary in our life is ourselves. We are what we are, in a sense, because of the dominating thoughts we allow to gather in our head. All concepts of self-improvement, all actions and paths we take, relate solely to our abstract image of ourselves. Life is limited only by how we really see ourselves and feel about our being. A great deal of pure self-knowledge and inner understanding allows us to lay an all-important foundation for the structure of our life from which we can perceive and take the right avenues.

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    This is definitely exciting as PCs really never get that truly-yours kind of specs...they can do amazing stuff on the PCs but sadly it's not feasible to do so. 8GB of RAM is a different realm if you are allowed to use it all. Sadly consoles never get good GPUs and I feel that this will be the biggest bottleneck this generation. I think GB-wise, we're on spot for the next approx 7 years.

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    Ok, I read... Then I called BS

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutButterMunky View Post
    The 8 GB of GDDR5 and the 6x Blu-ray drive will certainly help. They've still yet to explain all this instant on stuff, but I'm curious to see how it all works together, software- and hardware-wise.
    No, they haven't. And I'm just rediculously curious to how it all works as well! Sony's doing a good job at keeping things under wraps this time around.

    Sent from the Warlock


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    Well Eurogamer says the next xbox gpu will be a 7790 more or less while the Ps4 is between a 7850-7870.Vg has been wrong with their specs,while Eurogamer was basically right on with Ps4 minus the 4 gigs of ram part.Sony has already said their api codes to metal.This also bypasses all the directX11 bs.Time will tell which system will have better graphics.If unless MS goes balls out on the gpu which they wont because its using the same jaguar apu.From reports i have read Sony got with Ati to build a higher end Gpu that will only be used in Ps4.I am not saying Eurogamer knows everything but they have a great sorce.

    Well i heard Sony wants to bump up the cpu from 1.6-2.0ghz.From what i read the performance from the bump in mhz wont be worth it.We will know next month.
    Last edited by Black; 05-12-2013 at 06:28. Reason: Merging.

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    Seeing that these CPUs will be pretty crappy, I think any boost would be useful.

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    I just want to pop my game in and play without waiting for installs.MS did a much better job with 360 on that issue.

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    The only 'amazing' special feature the Durango has embedded in its silicon is the SHAPE audio processor which is immensely powerful for all audio concerns. This is a natural fit given Kinect 2.0.

    Otherwise folks, that's it. Durango doesn't have any super aces in the hole to dethrone PS4\Orbis.


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    There is a lot of things it could have that the PS4 doesn't have. Eg a real x86 core, or maybe larger texture caches etc

    We dont know.
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PSU

Playstation Universe

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