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  1. #51
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    I believe that what GG meant was there is no obvious deficiency that developers will have to struggle with. All around it is a competent system. It has obvious limitations, but there shouldn't be hardware that drastically holds back the potential of the other components in the design.


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  3. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    Rage is definitely screwed up. So was the bf4 and uncharted 3 60fps videos. Idk what the correct term is but it looked too fast. I'd rather have 30fps too if they can't get it to look right. COD doesn't give me the feeling of those games. Idk what they are doing differently to not give it the same weird speed that's found in the other games I mentioned.
    Uncharted 3 didn't give me issues (as far as I can remember) and neither did COD.

    Yeah, it's definitely something to it as it's not always to do with the 60 frames thing.

    #IndieStation4 and proud of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I believe that what GG meant was there is no obvious deficiency that developers will have to struggle with. All around it is a competent system. It has obvious limitations, but there shouldn't be hardware that drastically holds back the potential of the other components in the design.
    This. Since I can't like posts all of a sudden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    I can get used to it...the reason why it looks weird is because it's more realistic than what we're used to.

    60fps is more realistic than 24 fps. But what our eyes see, not sure, never looked into it but likely far more than 120fps even.

    The only reason I say that I don't like it is because movies weren't designed to be 120fps. But in the future, if a movie comes out with that frame rate then I won't mind. Something odd about watching an older movie on 120hz...I think likely because it's being upscaled (for the lack of a more accurate/geeky word) to 120fps or just that I'm not used to it.
    Yeah. I said to my bro that we should probably turn down the smoothness cos it's not how the director intended the movie to be watched. I think you're spot on about the idea that it looks far more realistic though, as football - or sports in general - looks glorious on the TV

    But anyway, with regards to PS4 - "no performance bottleneck" and dev friendly architecture, looks like Sony has built a hell of a machine here. Waiting for that bit of bad news :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelemit View Post
    No... Not really...

    That assumes,the app is capable of handling that load!

    If it can't, then there is no bottleneck... Can't do it in the first place to get that kind of data out to the pipeline... U less your graphics are so simplistic it's a non-issue, at that point, then is all that AA or HDR needed because you aren't even generating graphics that can benefit all that stuff? (Yeah, yeah, yeah.... Everything's possible.. But talking realistic situations here... Does HDR really help mario brothers? AA, sure... Helps most everything.... For the most part, but, you get my drift... I hope)

    My knowledge of the inner workings of graphics is weak at best, so only really working from general knowledge combined with logic.... Falty assumptions may be at play here, so talk to the graphics gurus to verify.... But...
    That is like saying I can run Crysis on a gtx260 + Pentium 4 if I disable 90%(very low setting) of the game features.

    As for bottleneck maybe there won't be one since the CPU + GPU is from the same company and is clocked at speed where they both work good together, like matching a mid CPU and a mid range graphic card. I hope the PS4 launch is not going to be like the PS3 launch with that whole Jack Trenton statement hailstorm. The PS4 will look better than last gen, but please let not make a crazy claims like the Killzone 2 CGI from 2005 and have this forum flooded with Playstation hater disproving a BS statement come launch day. I want it to be a happy launch and not a next gen war day.

  8. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I believe that what GG meant was there is no obvious deficiency that developers will have to struggle with. All around it is a competent system. It has obvious limitations, but there shouldn't be hardware that drastically holds back the potential of the other components in the design.
    That's what I think as well. It was just a poor choice of words to explain it.




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  9. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    That's what I think as well. It was just a poor choice of words to explain it.
    True but that's the simplest way to explain it. If this was taken out of their personal blog then I understand...generally these things are asked during an interview and they don't have time to go into details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    True but that's the simplest way to explain it. If this was taken out of their personal blog then I understand...generally these things are asked during an interview and they don't have time to go into details.
    Yeah that's true. Very well could have been a quick interview. Although I think most understood what he was getting at.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    what itachi said

    i think people are misunderstanding the nature of a bottleneck

    i REALLY don't see the craze with 60fps tbh. why do people want it so bad?
    Because it's better. Smoother animation frame to frame, faster response time from control input.

    I'm fine with a rock solid 30fps...but I would prefer a locked 60fps.

  12. #60
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    Kinda a noob question. Is 60 fps the max? Can it be any higher? Do we have capacity to go beyond 60 fps?

  13. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serinous View Post
    Kinda a noob question. Is 60 fps the max? Can it be any higher? Do we have capacity to go beyond 60 fps?
    It can go as high as you want it to go. Just that most people can't tell difference between 60-120 and 120 from 240.

    I've heard some people playing 200+ fps on PC with a game like Quake.

    60fps is the sweet spot....30 is ok and most people don't notice it (mainstreams) but they do notice more details...thus why we see more 30fps games than 60.

  14. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serinous View Post
    Kinda a noob question. Is 60 fps the max? Can it be any higher? Do we have capacity to go beyond 60 fps?
    Basically what Sufi said
    you can go as high as the tech can muster, but the REAL diminishing return area is when you cross 60fps. I can guarantee even the most avid PC gamer will have much trouble telling the difference between 90fps ad 120fps.
    60 and 30 difference is easy to see

  15. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelemit View Post
    Lack of bottleneck = balanced system, it seems, in this quote... No one component so outstrips another that the overpowered unit is left idle without anything to do the majority of time.

    So yes, your claim is true that everything has a bottleneck except something with infinite power.... Which, using that definition, makes the claim ludicrous, agreed...

    I wonder though if they are simply claiming a very well balanced system...


    And a check of OP confirms... Claim is of balance, not infinite power.

    Ie. each part won't overpower another, thus create a bottleneck because of the overpowered part...
    This.

    There is of course the caveat that someone create some new technique which requires something the PS4 can "just" do..hence a bottle neck, but no over all its about making sure there are no "weak links" in the system architecture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serinous View Post
    Kinda a noob question. Is 60 fps the max? Can it be any higher? Do we have capacity to go beyond 60 fps?
    You start hitting display rates then.
    Basically higher than 60fps is really about what you TV can display (i.e. hz).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    It can go as high as you want it to go. Just that most people can't tell difference between 60-120 and 120 from 240.

    I've heard some people playing 200+ fps on PC with a game like Quake.

    60fps is the sweet spot....30 is ok and most people don't notice it (mainstreams) but they do notice more details...thus why we see more 30fps games than 60.
    They are idiots, because there LCD display would likely be locked at 60hz. meaning the other frames are never actually displayed on the screen.
    Last edited by mynd; 04-09-2013 at 04:57.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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  17. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    The claim is ludicrous. Not even remotely possible.

    Here, do you want me to show you a bottleneck? 176GB/Sec memory bandwidth that is shared between the GPU and CPU.

    1080 X 1920 X 64bit(HDR) X 32bit(Z Buffer) X 2(Overdraw) X 4(4XAA) X 60 (Frame Rate) = 254GB/Sec

    Can't be done. Bandwidth bottleneck.

    See, that wasn't hard, was it?
    How is that math done? I'm getting a different product.

    I get 1080x1920 x 8 bytes (HDR) x 4 bytes(Z-buffer) x 2(overdraw) x 4(4XAA) x 60(FPS) = 31,850,496,000 bytes /sec = 31.8GB/sec

    Why are you multiplying the 64-bit colour value by 32-bit for z-buffer? Shoudn't you be adding instead?

    1920x1080 x (8 bytes per pixel + 4 bytes z-buffer per pixel) x 2 x 4 x 60 = 11,943,936,000 = 11 GB/sec

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  19. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion View Post
    How is that math done? I'm getting a different product.

    I get 1080x1920 x 8 bytes (HDR) x 4 bytes(Z-buffer) x 2(overdraw) x 4(4XAA) x 60(FPS) = 31,850,496,000 bytes /sec = 31.8GB/sec

    Why are you multiplying the 64-bit colour value by 32-bit for z-buffer? Shoudn't you be adding instead?

    1920x1080 x (8 bytes per pixel + 4 bytes z-buffer per pixel) x 2 x 4 x 60 = 11,943,936,000 = 11 GB/sec
    Close. Not sure why you are using bytes, thats an awful annotation.
    Or 2x overdraw (pre -z buffer pass?)

    Trust me, you can draw about 2000 things on the screen no problems.
    The GPU will stall well before you have to worry about rendering output.

    There is a lot you guys are not factoring in, alpha masking kills the bandwidth (halves it instantly). Shadow mapping etc etc.

    And that's where the bottle neck will be, not output, rather input.
    Last edited by mynd; 04-09-2013 at 04:58.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

  20. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    This.

    There is of course the caveat that someone create some new technique which requires something the PS4 can "just" do..hence a bottle neck, but no over all its about making sure there are no "weak links" in the system architecture.



    You start hitting display rates then.
    Basically higher tuna 60fps is really about what you TV can display (i.e. hz).



    They are idiots, because there LCD display would likely be locked at 60hz. meaning the other frames are never actually displayed on the screen.
    Good point, forgot about that.

  21. #67
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    I'm sure everybody can tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps. Even those who don't think they can. A lot of people love Call of Duty but can't explain exactly why. They just say it feels good, slick, smooth. They mean, "I like 60fps".

    I've also seen games on a 120hz monitor with the framerate never dropping below 100 and it's great, super buttery. But for modern games it's just not worth the extra expense. You need double the rendering power which translates to more than double the money. I doubt it's even possible with most games even in SLI Titans. Whereas IMO 60fps over 30fps is absolutely worth the extra power, even if that means less sexy graphics.

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  23. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serinous View Post
    Kinda a noob question. Is 60 fps the max? Can it be any higher? Do we have capacity to go beyond 60 fps?
    Could go as high as you want I suppose...but past 60fps it's very hard to see or feel the difference.
    You have to account if your display can even support that, otherwise you'll still be seeing 60fps.

    If I had my ideal PC gaming rig I would be shooting for a setup that would 90fps with all the eyecandy maxed...that way in an intense scene the frame rate drop wouldn't go below 60fps and I'd never notice it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Serinous View Post
    Kinda a noob question. Is 60 fps the max? Can it be any higher? Do we have capacity to go beyond 60 fps?
    The max is whatever your screen can display. For me my screen is a 120Hz monitor so it could show up to 120Fps, and yes we can notice beyond 60FPS. If i'm playing a game at 100+Fps you can notice when it drops to ~80 or so.

    it depends what you are used to.
    Last edited by BBK..; 04-09-2013 at 08:52.

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  26. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    You start hitting display rates then.
    Basically higher than 60fps is really about what you TV can display (i.e. hz).
    Indeed.
    When going over 60hz the advantage is small but it's there. (if your device can support it.)

    Biggest advantage of >60hz displays is the ability to show framerates between normal vsynced framerates. (IE. 40fps between 30 and 60fps on 120hz monitors.)
    This makes frame drops on low framerates less noticeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Close. Not sure why you are using bytes, thats an awful annotation.
    I do it as it's easiest way to calculate as the result is wanted in GB as well.
    Also buffers are usually aligned so that single byte is the smallest unit. (RGBA each single byte in a buffer. Z-buffer 3 bytes + Stencil packed in a buffer.. Same goes to all G-buffers..etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    There is a lot you guys are not factoring in, alpha masking kills the bandwidth (halves it instantly). Shadow mapping etc etc.

    And that's where the bottle neck will be, not output, rather input.
    This.
    ROP usage in framebuffer is not really the only bandwidth hungry operation anymore.
    There is plenty of additional buffers and all sorts of operations (texturing, shadow maps, voxels, post processing, translucency, G-buffers.)
    Last edited by jlippone; 04-09-2013 at 12:34.
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  27. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    This.

    There is of course the caveat that someone create some new technique which requires something the PS4 can "just" do..hence a bottle neck, but no over all its about making sure there are no "weak links" in the system architecture.



    You start hitting display rates then.
    Basically higher than 60fps is really about what you TV can display (i.e. hz).



    They are idiots, because there LCD display would likely be locked at 60hz. meaning the other frames are never actually displayed on the screen.
    This is what most people don't get, its not about indiviual frames that can or cannot be seen its about smoothness and fluidity so those "extra" frames are not lost and are not wasted/useless, they add to the oveall feeling of smoothness of the motion.
    Last edited by keefy; 04-09-2013 at 12:37.

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  29. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    This is what most people don't get, its not about indiviual frames that can or cannot be seen its about smoothness and fluidity so those "extra" frames are not lost and are not wasted/useless, they add to the oveall feeling of smoothness of the motion.
    You can't feel anything you cant see. It's a placebo if you think you are benefiting from 200fps on a 60Hz moniter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I believe that what GG meant was there is no obvious deficiency that developers will have to struggle with. All around it is a competent system. It has obvious limitations, but there shouldn't be hardware that drastically holds back the potential of the other components in the design.
    I think what they meant was that between the CPU - GPU - RAM there isn't a bottleneck. The PS3 has a HUGE bottleneck between all 3 of those things CPU - GPU - RAM. On the PS3 between the GPU and CPU there is a bottleneck as well as between the RAM + the GPU and CPU but not with the PS4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    You can't feel anything you cant see. It's a placebo if you think you are benefiting from 200fps on a 60Hz moniter
    Those "extra" frames dont go anywhere. They don't just vanish because they cannot be seen.


    Also people use high framerates to combat tearing. The higher above the refresh rate the better. IF cap at the refresh rate of the monitor it causes worse tearing and often jittery stuttery motion.
    Vsync causes input lag at 60Hz which is very noticable with a mouse. At 120Hz it is less noticable becuase it has halved but still there.
    Last edited by keefy; 04-09-2013 at 13:11.

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    There is still the big bottleneck of disc read times.


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