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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibby View Post
    There is still the big bottleneck of disc read times.
    can't they use the combination of HDD and RAM to overcome this? like UC did with streaming textures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    can't they use the combination of HDD and RAM to overcome this? like UC did with streaming textures?
    Yeah, many devs have spoken on how the load times will be fraction of what they were and the RAM speed and amount will also help significantly

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    Limits=/=Bottlenecks.
    I think there are some people in this thread that need to understand the difference in these 2 terms.

    Limits mean you reached the highest peak possible with the technology and it can't possibly be pushed any further.
    Bottlenecks mean there maybe 1 or even 2 components in the system that are slowing things down while others are trying to accomplish their task quickly. Think of an actual bottle, the neck is smaller than the main portion, thus slowing the flow of liquid leaving the bottle when its tipped.

    I can only assume that this claim was made because of the following:
    -CPU and GPU are integrated together
    -Memory is shared between both CPU and GPU

    These factors go a long way into reducing transfer rate loss.

    This claim wasn't saying the PS4 is an unstoppable powerhouse. It was saying the system shouldn't be holding itself back unnecessarily in some way. Like someone else said, it's "Balanced".

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  5. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    can't they use the combination of HDD and RAM to overcome this? like UC did with streaming textures?
    Yes, but it requires reading the information into the HDD and RAM. RAM is also used to overcome the slow read speed of the HDD.
    Last edited by Shibby; 04-09-2013 at 16:29.


  6. #80
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    Looks like he goes further in his analysis
    http://www.edge-online.com/news/ps4-...errilla-games/

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  8. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    That's what I think as well. It was just a poor choice of words to explain it.
    How was it a poor choice of words? What Vulgotha explained is exactly what a bottleneck is. I think you just thought 'no bottlenecks' meant 'no limits', which is something completely different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibby View Post
    Yes, but it requires reading the information into the HDD and RAM. RAM is also used to overcome the slow read speed of the HDD.
    Couldn't they preload the textures onto the HDD as cache? or installs?

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    Updated the thread. I'm loving everything about the ps4 so far. Takes care of some of those "it's not really efficient but they're using brute force instead" arguments
    Destiny is going to be EVERYTHING that EA and MS hoped titanfall would be

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    I can't wait to see the full hardware specs and design, I have a feeling it is going to feel like it was crafted by a modern day Michelangelo!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Couldn't they preload the textures onto the HDD as cache? or installs?
    They do that with RAM I believe, or sequential reading. HDD isn't much better than disc, it suffers from the same mechanical constraints. I think the only reason installs were necessary on PS3 was because of the exceptionally slow BD drive. Probably won't be an issue on PS4 regarding reading from BD vs. reading from HDD.
    Last edited by Shibby; 04-09-2013 at 19:36.


  13. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by shepard View Post
    Limits=/=Bottlenecks.
    I think there are some people in this thread that need to understand the difference in these 2 terms.

    Limits mean you reached the highest peak possible with the technology and it can't possibly be pushed any further.
    Bottlenecks mean there maybe 1 or even 2 components in the system that are slowing things down while others are trying to accomplish their task quickly. Think of an actual bottle, the neck is smaller than the main portion, thus slowing the flow of liquid leaving the bottle when its tipped.

    I can only assume that this claim was made because of the following:
    -CPU and GPU are integrated together
    -Memory is shared between both CPU and GPU

    These factors go a long way into reducing transfer rate loss.

    This claim wasn't saying the PS4 is an unstoppable powerhouse. It was saying the system shouldn't be holding itself back unnecessarily in some way. Like someone else said, it's "Balanced".
    Surly if their is no bottlenecks the limits would be far higher than a console with bottlenecks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw3d Genius View Post
    Surly if their is no bottlenecks the limits would be far higher than a console with bottlenecks?
    I could have a top of the line PC bottlenecked by a slower component, or 15 year old hardware with no bottlenecks, just all-around slow transfer rates, which is better?

    "No bottlenecks" doesn't tell you anything about maximum performance. If you had two identical machines except one is bottlenecked by slow RAM and the other is not, then you can say that the latter has higher limits.
    Last edited by Shibby; 04-09-2013 at 19:43.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw3d Genius View Post
    Surly if their is no bottlenecks the limits would be far higher than a console with bottlenecks?
    Correct

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    Even if there are zero bottlenecks, why does there have to be a framerate of 60 FPS?

    Devs could still choose to sacrifice FPS for graphical detail no matter how powerful the machine is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibby View Post
    I could have a top of the line PC bottlenecked by a slower component, or 15 year old hardware with no bottlenecks, just all-around slow transfer rates, which is better?

    "No bottlenecks" doesn't tell you anything about maximum performance. If you had two identical machines except one is bottlenecked by slow RAM and the other is not, then you can say that the latter has higher limits.
    At this time you have gone way beyond what regular people understand in this thread lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    Even if there are zero bottlenecks, why does there have to be a framerate of 60 FPS?

    Devs could still choose to sacrifice FPS for graphical detail no matter how powerful the machine is.
    That criteria is funny because it's been possible since Dreamcast came out. Nvm...NES had 60fps with all of their 2D games.

    It's not that devs have never been able to do 60fps, they just choose not to. But there's more and more power left over with newer generations and we will start seeing more 60fps games but that doesn't change the fact that most developers will still opt for 30fps.

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    Honestly, I can game on both 60FPS and 30FPS and it doesn't bother me one bit. **shrugs**

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    The part I find most interesting about this is that devs will be able to program based on balanced limits. They won't have to "throttle" anything down because of a bottleneck but instead, push the system to the absolute limit. On another note, hopefully the best multi-plat games will be programmed on the PS4 first so those limits can be pushed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdoggy View Post
    Honestly, I can game on both 60FPS and 30FPS and it doesn't bother me one bit. **shrugs**
    30fps definitely bothers me but only in competitive online games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdoggy View Post
    Honestly, I can game on both 60FPS and 30FPS and it doesn't bother me one bit. **shrugs**
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    30fps definitely bothers me but only in competitive online games.
    30fps is by no means a deal-breaker for me, but with more and more games going 60fps, 30 begins to stand out more and more.


  22. #95
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    30fps is barely noticeable (to me) for games that have eye candy and are fairly slow paced.

    I mean, I notice it...I should say, they don't bother me. Something like GT that requires precision or a fighting game, definitely can't do without 60fps...i also prefer shooters to be 60fps. BF3 bothers me at 30fps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigdoggy View Post
    Honestly, I can game on both 60FPS and 30FPS and it doesn't bother me one bit. **shrugs**
    same, i can run a 30fps game, switch to a 60fps game, and not really notice or care tbh.

    however, it depends on the game. I played some Counter Strike back in the day, and i would say those types of games should run at 60: twitch games and racers. however, the vast majority of games are fine at 30 imo...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    same, i can run a 30fps game, switch to a 60fps game, and not really notice or care tbh.

    however, it depends on the game. I played some Counter Strike back in the day, and i would say those types of games should run at 60: twitch games and racers. however, the vast majority of games are fine at 30 imo...
    I've never had a problem with 30 FPS. The only problem comes from when framerates are inconsistent, or when they're interpolated, though that's a problem with movies not games. For instance, those 120 fps Bluray movies are based on 24 fps film, so they interpolate 4 times between each frame. It does NOT look good. When framerates on games drop randomly, it causes problems. This is why I like games that COULD do 60 fps but are locked to 30 fps. It helps them keep it consistent.

    On a side note, I'm guessing the telecommunications infrastructure in Fiji must have improved a lot since 2001 when I was there if you can play online games...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobtheduck View Post
    On a side note, I'm guessing the telecommunications infrastructure in Fiji must have improved a lot since 2001 when I was there if you can play online games...
    nope! still as $#@!ty as ever

    there was a gaming cafe at one of fiji's "malls" where we'd go and get locked into and play LAN battles with the staff
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  26. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    Even if there are zero bottlenecks, why does there have to be a framerate of 60 FPS?

    Devs could still choose to sacrifice FPS for graphical detail no matter how powerful the machine is.
    that because ppl keep saying no bottleneck mean better performance and better performance means what? I mean ppl keep gushing on 8gig of ram, and that it will give better graphical fidelity, yet now we have sacrifice for better graphics..hence a performance issues. So while we gloat about no bottleneck there an obvious issue with performances, yet we still get ppl claiming it on par with a upper range gaming PC.

    The ps4 spec is what it is. A low-mid range gaming PC with a slight over clocked GPU+CPU which will still be better than last gen console. Better to develope for(x86) affordable and familiar hardware at low price mean more games and bigger install base for Sony, so IMO Sony did not went with power this gen so I don't know why we keep trying to boost it graphical power and going as far as comparing it to high end PC with this "close system" power. We are not in the PS1 /PS2 era anymore, the PS4 is a mini PC with all the feature Sony trying to implement. That is why it need so much RAM, and with their decision for the console Sony will be on top this gen!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    Updated the thread. I'm loving everything about the ps4 so far. Takes care of some of those "it's not really efficient but they're using brute force instead" arguments
    Who sad that?

    They are trading efficiency for flexibility, and the cost is expense (GDDR5 aint cheap).
    Its technically "brute force" I guess, but its not really its just expensive.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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