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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    Do you realize how accurate my analogy is?

    What can Windows XP not do? It's written for millions of different hardware configurations, to support tens of thousands of different add on devices, and can do EVERYTHING the PS4 can do.

    The PS4 is a console. Single hardware configuration, limited add-ons, very limited functionality. You won't be editing spreadsheets or doing your family finances and taxes on a PS4. It's a very basic OS with a very limited number of functions that it has to perform.

    Why would the PS4 need a RAM footprint that is 8 times larger than XP? I can see some additions being made to run background communications and such, but really, why would the PS4 need a memory footprint in RAM that at 512MB is 8 times larger than the much more complex Windows XP requires?
    Well it probably won't need RAM footprint 8 times larger than XP, but it can benefit from more than 512MB.
    Windows XP by itself does not need a lot of ram, but as you start running programs it adds up.
    When you run Skype for voice chat, some kind of video recording software used to record, compress, and perhaps stream the game play, run an email client software, etc.... PS4 will hopefully cache all the trophies and messages as well as text chats so that you can view them right away instead of having to wait for them to load like on PS3 every time you bring up the XMB while playing a game, and these things will be stored in the RAM as well.

    We don't yet know much much ram each feature that the PS4 will use on top of the bare OS, so we can only speculate at this point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terminator 101 View Post
    Well it probably won't need RAM footprint 8 times larger than XP, but it can benefit from more than 512MB.
    I doubt it.

    Windows XP by itself does not need a lot of ram, but as you start running programs it adds up.
    When you run Skype for voice chat, some kind of video recording software used to record, compress, and perhaps stream the game play, run an email client software, etc....
    Yes yes, and yet it can do all of that (Except play games, which would be using the other RAM on the PS4 anyways) with just 64MB of RAM on XP. Now, on XP, if you're running a lot of programs at once you'll get slow system response, but they will still all run. Considering the PS4 wouldn't be running anywhere near as many programs and background applications as a PC it is only logical that it would use less RAM, not 8 times more.

    PS4 will hopefully cache all the trophies and messages as well as text chats so that you can view them right away instead of having to wait for them to load like on PS3 every time you bring up the XMB while playing a game, and these things will be stored in the RAM as well.
    A simple web page that is cached in local RAM should be fine for that. a couple of hundred kb at most.

    We don't yet know much much ram each feature that the PS4 will use on top of the bare OS, so we can only speculate at this point.
    The only real speculation should be how much of that 512MB of RAM is going to sit idle, unused, kept as nothing more than a safety measure for possible future system upgrades? There is no logical reason why Sony can't fit the entire OS in half that amount of RAM, so surely they've got an unused buffer included in that 512MB reserve.

    And there definitely isn't any reason why it would need more than 512MB for the OS. It's still just a game console, there are only so many things you can do with it at once. It's not like you're going to be using it as a multi-display system that can game on one screen while watching a movie on another and skyping using a third.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    I doubt it.

    Yes yes, and yet it can do all of that (Except play games, which would be using the other RAM on the PS4 anyways) with just 64MB of RAM on XP. Now, on XP, if you're running a lot of programs at once you'll get slow system response, but they will still all run. Considering the PS4 wouldn't be running anywhere near as many programs and background applications as a PC it is only logical that it would use less RAM, not 8 times more.
    Are you just making up stuff as you go? How do you know that the PS4 OS won't have as much or likely "more" background applications running? lol. Get out of town bro. Seriously?

    Not to mention, it's very devious of them to say 64MB minimum as I know that's not how it is in real world. I have yet to see my XP run below approx 250MB. In fact, why don't you show us a functioning 64MB XP...why don't you show us how much your XP takes (given that you turn off all the tasks you possibly can from the startup). Please, indulge us.

    I'm thinking they are taking about barebones, likely not counting the amount of RAM that is taken by resolution (probably counting 640x480) and you know, crap like that to trick people.

    The only real speculation should be how much of that 512MB of RAM is going to sit idle, unused, kept as nothing more than a safety measure for possible future system upgrades? There is no logical reason why Sony can't fit the entire OS in half that amount of RAM, so surely they've got an unused buffer included in that 512MB reserve.

    And there definitely isn't any reason why it would need more than 512MB for the OS. It's still just a game console, there are only so many things you can do with it at once. It's not like you're going to be using it as a multi-display system that can game on one screen while watching a movie on another and skyping using a third.
    Right...

    Oh hey, you forgot to answer how much RAM you think 360's OS takes. Unless you're doing it on purpose because that would completely throw your entire argument out the window?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Are you just making up stuff as you go? How do you know that the PS4 OS won't have as much or likely "more" background applications running? lol. Get out of town bro. Seriously?

    Not to mention, it's very devious of them to say 64MB minimum as I know that's not how it is in real world. I have yet to see my XP run below approx 250MB. In fact, why don't you show us a functioning 64MB XP...why don't you show us how much your XP takes (given that you turn off all the tasks you possibly can from the startup). Please, indulge us.

    I'm thinking they are taking about barebones, likely not counting the amount of RAM that is taken by resolution (probably counting 640x480) and you know, crap like that to trick people.


    Right...

    Oh hey, you forgot to answer how much RAM you think 360's OS takes. Unless you're doing it on purpose because that would completely throw your entire argument out the window?
    chill out, this is a speculation thread, can't we speculate without attacking people?
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    chill out, this is a speculation thread, can't we speculate without attacking people?
    Alright, fair enough lol. I just hate it when people act deaf and keep spewing out stuff they don't know much about.

    What he doesn't know is that it's not necessarily the amount of background services that is the difference, it's the kind of services and how much RAM they can possibly take, is what will make the difference in RAM difference of PS4's OS and XP.

    XP doesn't have a share program, trophies, x-game chat, friends list and numerous other apps running in the background. XP would have to turn those on first and we can say that without any evidence that XP doesn't have those services from scratch and you'd have to put these programs at launch in order to replicate what the PS4 OS will be running and then see how much RAM it will take.

    I will guarantee you that the PS4 OS will be far more efficient as XP programs would be individual so they don't have that focus to necessarily keep RAM usage low...not to mention, XP programs might have extra features you don't need, taking up your RAM...whereas the PS4 OS would be designed to have the features that will likely be needed by gamers and nothing else.

    Once we find out how many features the PS4 OS has, we will know better but just by using basic logic, that entire claim goes down the drain.

    All this guy does is come in these forums and throw out baseless rhetorics and uninformed/unproven claims...which is why I lost it a bit. He still hasn't answered that question I asked him twice and probably never will. He knows it trumps his entire argument.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Alright, fair enough lol. I just hate it when people act deaf and keep spewing out stuff they don't know much about.

    What he doesn't know is that it's not necessarily the amount of background services that is the difference, it's the kind of services and how much RAM they can possibly take, is what will make the difference in RAM difference of PS4's OS and XP.

    XP doesn't have a share program, trophies, x-game chat, friends list and numerous other apps running in the background. XP would have to turn those on first and we can say that without any evidence that XP doesn't have those services from scratch and you'd have to put these programs at launch in order to replicate what the PS4 OS will be running and then see how much RAM it will take.

    I will guarantee you that the PS4 OS will be far more efficient as XP programs would be individual so they don't have that focus to necessarily keep RAM usage low...not to mention, XP programs might have extra features you don't need, taking up your RAM...whereas the PS4 OS would be designed to have the features that will likely be needed by gamers and nothing else.

    Once we find out how many features the PS4 OS has, we will know better but just by using basic logic, that entire claim goes down the drain.
    I'm not sure what you're argument is. You lashed out at him for saying that XP ran with 64MB of memory and the PS4 OS will be more streamlined, and now you say the same thing?

    All this guy does is come in these forums and throw out baseless rhetorics and uninformed/unproven claims...which is why I lost it a bit. He still hasn't answered that question I asked him twice and probably never will. He knows it trumps his entire argument.
    From what I've read (as a software engineer) he's usually pretty spot-on. I believe he has a game development background.

    Anyway, relax.

  7. #32
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    Be that as it may, I am also dubious of the claim that the PS4 BSD-based OS will have something less than a 100-ish MB footprint. Keep in mind how big the PS3 OS was and even the size of the Vita OS which was larger than 64MB.


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    thats great sony put 8 gigs of ram in the ps4

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion View Post
    I'm not sure what you're argument is. You lashed out at him for saying that XP ran with 64MB of memory and the PS4 OS will be more streamlined, and now you say the same thing?

    From what I've read (as a software engineer) he's usually pretty spot-on. I believe he has a game development background.

    Anyway, relax.
    No he said that the PS4 OS better not be 8x more (512MB) as XP can do the same things at 64MB RAM. Or that's what he's implying or he wouldn't have mentioned 64MB RAM.

    How is he spot on? You should elaborate. I don't care if someone has a PhD, if you're not presenting a point that makes sense, it will be shot down.

    Did you read what I said btw? The PS4 OS is meant to have everything running whereas an XP is barebones at boot (i.e. first time you turn it on).

    Do you know how big the PS3/360 OS was?

    You're the software engineer right? Please tell me where I'm wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Be that as it may, I am also dubious of the claim that the PS4 BSD-based OS will have something less than a 100-ish MB footprint. Keep in mind how big the PS3 OS was and even the size of the Vita OS which was larger than 64MB.
    No way it would be around 100MB. The PS3 OS was larger.

  10. #35
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    The PS3 OS was 96MB at its biggest, if I recall correctly.

    PS4 has a ton of new features..


  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    The PS3 OS was 96MB at its biggest, if I recall correctly.

    PS4 has a ton of new features..
    Nope, that was the in-game OS. The fully featured one was much larger. Which is why we can't access those features in-game and why they made the new PSN store boot your console because they couldn't have a more fully-featured store (that it is now) within the PS3 OS.

    The new store probably takes up a huge chunk of RAM but is separate from the OS.

  12. #37
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    You can get XP to run on 64MB RAM, but that is not saying much. You can't do much with it, a lot of features will be disabled, it will be terribly slow/unresponsive and it is going to do a lot of file swapping.

    It is like using a slow/old computer that runs a game with the lowest of settings at 5 fps as an example of why faster/newer hardware is not needed to run that game.
    Last edited by Ryunosuke; 04-11-2013 at 03:25.

  13. #38
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    Right, but whatever size the PS4 OS will be apparently is constant. I.E. In or out of game it remains, at least that's what I'm getting out of this article and from the interpretations at B3D.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Right, but whatever size the PS4 OS will be apparently is constant. I.E. In or out of game it remains, at least that's what I'm getting out of this article and from the interpretations at B3D.
    Yea I was thinking earlier today that they would still have two versions because we wouldn't be able to play a movie while gaming...but now I'm thinking, moving-playing might still be separate from the OS like it was with the PS3.

    So you're right, it's highly likely the OS is going to be fixed this time around. No reason not to. Maybe they'll just keep all the things out of the OS footprint that they don't want in-game anyway.

    Either way, I'm surprised I'm the only one that finds the XP vs PS4 OS argument ridiculous.

    Someone's going to be very upset when Xbox 3's OS likely will turn out larger than PS4's.

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    Honestly. I don't see why the PS4 should use any more than 256MB of ram for the OS at its peak draw. It really only needs 32MB for the OS kernal which runs the most vital of functions needed to keep the system on and running. As for programs running in the background, multi-tasking and various apps? Well, let's just say that a good portion of them will not be running simultaneously and thus, a good portion can be relegated to the APU L1 and L2 cache. Add to that, the fact that the OS and its various, apps, programs and features will by hyper-optimized because - there is only one standard to work with - it's not hard to imagine a relatively small OS footprint. I think 512MB will be overkill when we stop and think about it.

    I also suspect that while the background downloading feature will consume a sizable chunk of ram, the system won't need 512MB of ram to store all that downloaded data because hard drive caching takes care of the bulk of that. Most likely, that throughput will be used for background installs, if any or just be left on the hard drive for later retrieval as would be the case for things like videos, trailers and other non-essentials. There are a myriad of ways to go about these things and MOAR RAM isn't always the answer.

    Now, I'm not claiming to have all the answers but one thing I know for certain is that the OS will by hyper-optimized.

    P.S. Background download speeds are only as fast as the slowest component so for many on here, ram won't be the issue.
    Last edited by Morganator; 04-11-2013 at 05:39.

  16. #41
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    Surely a decent portion of the OS RAM will be dedicated to the continuous 15 minutes of recorded gameplay. The low power background chip handles the grunt but that data still needs to sit somewhere. 512mb sounds about right to me.

    If it was still Sony's Japan branch lording over the entire system I'd be worried about the OS but with Cerny and no doubt an american team behind the OS/UI, I think it will be great.

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    Alright guys, my guess is the PS4's OS will use 1GB of RAM, lol. It probably won't use all of it right away, but it will give them room in the future to add more features if they want too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Surely a decent portion of the OS RAM will be dedicated to the continuous 15 minutes of recorded gameplay. The low power background chip handles the grunt but that data still needs to sit somewhere. 512mb sounds about right to me.
    My guess is a small ring buffer for a compressed stream which is copied to HDD in deferred bursts. (less HDD trashing.)

    For those who are interested AMD released their GDC2013 papers.
    http://developer.amd.com/resources/d...presentations/
    There's some quite nice information on their GCN architecture in general.

    Some features like partially resident textures should be quite nice for memory usage on largeish textures and for some other little tricks. (Sadly there is 16000 texel limit per dimension.)
    http://developer.amd.com/wordpress/m...20GPUs.v04.pps
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Are you just making up stuff as you go? How do you know that the PS4 OS won't have as much or likely "more" background applications running? lol. Get out of town bro. Seriously?
    Are you seriously trying to suggest that the PS4 will be able to do things that XP doesn't already do?

    Name one. Just one. Go ahead and try.



    Not to mention, it's very devious of them to say 64MB minimum as I know that's not how it is in real world. I have yet to see my XP run below approx 250MB. In fact, why don't you show us a functioning 64MB XP...why don't you show us how much your XP takes (given that you turn off all the tasks you possibly can from the startup). Please, indulge us.
    Come to my office and I'll show you 50 workstations all running XP on 256MB of RAM, with antivirus and at least 8 applications open at once. These systems are used every single day.

    I'm thinking they are taking about barebones, likely not counting the amount of RAM that is taken by resolution (probably counting 640x480) and you know, crap like that to trick people.
    I'm thinking at this point that you don't have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about. Desktop resolution? Seriously? That's a whopping 8.3MB at 1080p resolution, and that is assuming you're using 32-bit color instead of the normal 24-bit.


    Right...

    Oh hey, you forgot to answer how much RAM you think 360's OS takes. Unless you're doing it on purpose because that would completely throw your entire argument out the window?
    Xbox 360 OS footprint is exactly 32MB.

    What do you think the PS4 will be doing that requires 16 times more RAM than the Xbox 360 uses for it's OS? Anything?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    Are you seriously trying to suggest that the PS4 will be able to do things that XP doesn't already do?

    Name one. Just one. Go ahead and try.
    Where did I say that? What I'm saying is that you're comparing an idle PC OS (that doesn't need background apps running) to a console OS (that needs additional background services running from the start), obviously it's going to take more RAM.

    The moment you start to do "anything" on an XP, it will take more RAM. Whereas the PS4 has a dedicated set amount and it works within its limits. Both are designed completely differently. Now once we know what the PS4 is running at all times and then how much RAM the OS is using at that time (not the total fixed amount) then for a rough estimate, we can run similar programs that may or may not have similar RAM usage and get a very rough estimate of what they would be using.

    Your comparison is nill. You can't compare a proactive OS with an idle one, as far as RAM usage goes. An idle OS is not running "anything", a proactive OS may be running quite a few apps in the background.

    Come to my office and I'll show you 50 workstations all running XP on 256MB of RAM, with antivirus and at least 8 applications open at once. These systems are used every single day.
    And what does that prove? I'm asking you to show me an XP session that is running at/around 64MB RAM.

    Again, the amount of applications don't matter, it's what kind of applications you're running...you could be running 100 wordpads (which are 100 different services) and it shouldn't take more than a few dozen MBs of RAM.

    The entire argument is baseless.

    I'm thinking at this point that you don't have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about. Desktop resolution? Seriously? That's a whopping 8.3MB at 1080p resolution, and that is assuming you're using 32-bit color instead of the normal 24-bit.
    You're right, that was my fault, I was thinking about processing bits that require more RAM.

    Either way I don't believe one bit that the XP could run at 64MB at idle on first boot.
    Xbox 360 OS footprint is exactly 32MB.
    No it's not. That's the in-game OS, otherwise you would be able to see and access avatars. The fully featured 360 OS is much larger than 32MB. We don't know the actual amount but it's likely somewhere between 100-150.

    What do you think the PS4 will be doing that requires 16 times more RAM than the Xbox 360 uses for it's OS? Anything?

    I don't know but the share feature seems like a pretty big RAM user to me. Not to mention background downloading, x-game-chat and gaikai. We don't know how many of these are running at all times. There's also remote play. There are likely many more features that we don't know yet and I'm sure I'm missing from what we already know.

    The point is, they have to set a fixed amount (that can obviously go down with time) because it's a closed box and all devs have to know what this limit is and what it is lowered to as we go along. So what they choose from the beginning, they can't make that go higher unless all the games from the beginning are patched (which will never happen).

    Even if the OS is not running all these things per se at all times, it still needs to reserve a fixed amount. But we will likely have tons of services running in the background and that's how the system is so efficient at using these services or as they've told us.

    For all we know, the full OS may be bigger than 512MB.

    Bottom line, you're comparing apples and oranges.
    Last edited by Omar; 04-11-2013 at 19:31.

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    I think the consensus that most people on this thread have reached is that 512 mb is ample ram. Certainly not as ridiculous as some suggestions, such as a few gb that some were trying to put forth. as a member of several forums. I would also postulate that those asserting 2 or 3 gb plus ram usage by OS are often the fans of non PlayStation platforms trying to compensate, for what? I Do not know.
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    I'd rather Sony reserve enough ram now than have to miss out on features for not being prepared(ps3-voice chat). If they don't need it later on then they can chop away at it. Besides, I'm sure having all this $#@! running in the background will take up a decent chunk of ram.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    I'd rather Sony reserve enough ram now than have to miss out on features for not being prepared(ps3-voice chat). If they don't need it later on then they can chop away at it. Besides, I'm sure having all this $#@! running in the background will take up a decent chunk of ram.
    I'm thinking what they will do is to use up all the RAM and they probably have a projected map of how much RAM they will either lower or try to lower and they might add features as they go as RAM usage will likely go down...instead of actually having unused RAM in there but they still might have some in there, who knows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    Are you seriously trying to suggest that the PS4 will be able to do things that XP doesn't already do?

    Name one. Just one. Go ahead and try.
    Play PS4 games.

    Do I win a prize



    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post

    What do you think the PS4 will be doing that requires 16 times more RAM than the Xbox 360 uses for it's OS? Anything?
    "requires"...eh dunno. Perhaps reserved an extra bit for the always running video recording?

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    PlayStation 4 developers have access to 7 GB RAM: rumor
    http://ps4daily.com/2013/04/playstat...pers-7-gb-ram/

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