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  1. #1
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    Indie Dev defends Microsoft

    I guess it's not bad for all devs. Good that they spoke out about this. Love that Dishwasher game.

    The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile dev defends Microsoft

    The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile developer Ska Studios has never had any problems working with Microsoft, contrary to ongoing talk of how indies struggle with the platform holder.

    Ska Studios has three Xbox Live Arcade games – The Dishwasher: Vampire Smile, The Dishwasher: Dead Samurai, and Charlie Murder – as well as four Xbox Live Indie Games – ZP2KX, I MAED A GAM3 W1TH Z0MB1ES 1NIT!!!1, ZP2K9 and Zombie Smashers X4 Guitarpocalypse! – as well as one Windows Phone game, Z0MB1ES (on teh ph0ne).
    Charlie Murder is being published by Microsoft, and in a recent blog post, James Silva – one half of the two-persn developer – had nothing but praise for the platform holder.
    “Quite frankly, working with Microsoft is great. I have heard a few stories that contradict my experience, and I know quite a few people who are happier on platforms other than XBLA, and that’s fine for them,” he wrote.
    “XBLA is a closed, carefully curated platform with its own set of fairly rigid standards and protocols. For me, it was just a matter of ‘do the work, release the game,’ and that’s exactly what we did. Going from a hobbyist PC bedroom developer to having conference calls with Microsoft (admittedly, still from my bedroom) was such a rush that the supposed terrors of having to fill out lots of forms or fix messaging errors were absolutely lost on me.”
    Silva said that “everything’s fine” doesn’t make a good a headline, which leads to a skewed views on Microsoft’s services.
    “When one indie says they’re never working with Microsoft again, the gaming public becomes curious as to whether this is an isolated incident, or part of some sort of ugly truth, and pretty soon everyone wants to know if I’ve just been secretly hiding my experience with the ugly truth, or if I’ll be moving to PS4 because of the ugly truth, when in fact this perceived ugly truth is nothing more than four or five data points,” he continued.
    “Reinforcing the ‘Microsoft is bad for indies’ narrative doesn’t hurt Microsoft, it hurts indies,” he added.
    “Telling thousands of readers that Microsoft is failing at indie gaming is telling thousands of potential customers that Microsoft is failing at indie gaming. And while everyone likes a sale, the ones who really, desperately need the money aren’t the Microsoft people who greenlight the projects, they’re the indie developers who are trying to quit their day jobs, trying to buy a house, trying to raise a baby.
    “As a consumer, would you think twice about buying a game from a ‘failed platform?’ Would you hesitate at buying an indie game from a company that ‘screws indies?’ But that’s the current narrative, and while it sucks for Microsoft, it sucks a lot more for indie developers who are publishing on XBLA.”
    It’s worth noting that the post went up ahead of recent negative discussion of Microsoft’s treatment of indies, although the sentiment has recurred several times over the past few years.
    Thanks, woe.http://www.vg247.com/2013/04/12/the-...nds-microsoft/

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    I think the Braid dev was anally raped by big Bill

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    Most Indie games are shovelware anyway. Every once in awhile a gem comes forth from the rubbish but most aren't even worth 5 minutes of your time.

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    I think this echoes the situation a couple years ago with 360's RRODing, and how some claim the problem wasn't as bad as people think just because they've never experienced any problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    Most Indie games are shovelware anyway. Every once in awhile a gem comes forth from the rubbish but most aren't even worth 5 minutes of your time.
    Oh man I love the XBLIG section. So many great under rated games.

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    Indie games don't crash on 360, ( Terrarira on PS3 being the latest), they dont crash because MS has stringent certification process's, which means you have to make sure you game doesn't conflict with the O/S.
    Every single case of devs being pissy is because their game had bugs that MS demanded they squash.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    I haven't played too many indie games on 360, but the ones I did play didn't have issues. I have a decent collection of indie games on pc, and I'd say I've had more fun with indie games than most AAA games. There are some seriously gifted, creative talent out there not chained by huge corporations making the next standard sequel.

    I played the Dishwasher demo back when it was new, it was not my style game. I think the indie scene will be even more important next gen, but you can see article after article of people saying this or that about a platform, the real test will be what indie developers actually do with the new consoles. The rest is just talk.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Indie games don't crash on 360, ( Terrarira on PS3 being the latest), they dont crash because MS has stringent certification process's, which means you have to make sure you game doesn't conflict with the O/S.
    Every single case of devs being pissy is because their game had bugs that MS demanded they squash.
    what was that game on 360 that the dev said he'd never fix because of what MS charge for patches? was it Fez?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yungstar 2006 View Post
    what was that game on 360 that the dev said he'd never fix because of what MS charge for patches? was it Fez?
    Yup, and he's one of the pissy ones.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    XBL can't be too bad of a place for indie devs.. Just look at the success of Minecraft.

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    More Successful Indie Devs Defend Microsoft, Xbox 360

    The Behemoth states that they “have absolutely no problem with Microsoft or the XBLA team.



    Microsoft hasn’t been getting great press from independent developers lately, most notably from Jonathan Blow (Braid) and Brian Provinciano (Retro City Rampage), whodidn’t have glowing things to say about trying to work with the company that created the Xbox 360. Blow stated point-blank that “Microsoft treats independent developers very badly,” while Provinciano noted that the company has an “intimidating corporate vibe.”
    But not every independent developer has had trouble with Microsoft. The Behemoth, the wildly successful studio behind Castle Crashers and BattleBlock Theater, has come out to defend Microsoft. BeefJack stumbled upon this Raptr Q&A with the studio’s Project Manager, Emil Ayoubkhan, and Ayoubkhan paints a bit of a different picture than Blow and Provinciano.

    “We have absolutely no problem with Microsoft or the XBLA team,” he said. “We love working with them, and hopefully they enjoy working with us as well. I can’t speak for other devs that may have bad mouthed Microsoft in the past, but that’s definitely not the company that we are.”
    Ayoubkhan later continued, stating that, “You’ll always hear the negative side of things in the press, or from others, more than the positive aspects. It’s definitely a lot more entertaining to read I suppose.”

    The Behemoth’s first game, Alien Hominid, put them on the map, but the studio didn’t find extraordinary success until it released Castle Crashers on XBLA in 2008. Castle Crashers later came to PSN in 2010 and PC in 2012, but it was on XBLA that the studio made a name for itself, and its newest game, the XBLA title BattleBlock Theater, just launched last week. It’s a very good game: we gave it a 7.8.
    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/04/...osoft-xbox-360
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 04-13-2013 at 04:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost-Rhayne View Post


    That's a little old...2011 to be exact and indie dev support for XBLA was stronger than ever and still remains to this day.



    Some devs found PS3 hardware painful to work with but they still did. No one is gonna pass up an opportunity to make as much money as they can. XBL is still the place for indie devs.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 04-13-2013 at 05:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Indie games don't crash on 360, ( Terrarira on PS3 being the latest), they dont crash because MS has stringent certification process's, which means you have to make sure you game doesn't conflict with the O/S.
    Every single case of devs being pissy is because their game had bugs that MS demanded they squash.
    Sure, mynd. That means....almost nothing coming from you. A simple google search reveals your statement to be false (regarding crashes.)

  17. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Indie games don't crash on 360, ( Terrarira on PS3 being the latest), they dont crash because MS has stringent certification process's, which means you have to make sure you game doesn't conflict with the O/S.
    Every single case of devs being pissy is because their game had bugs that MS demanded they squash.
    Not all of them. Some literally couldn't get their game published on XBLA despite jumping through every necessary hoop in their path. They have pretty good reason to be pissy

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I'm told that several MS devs have this picture wallpapered in their offices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    I'm told that several MS devs have this picture wallpapered in their offices.
    lol Good one. Could be a leaked document regarding MS next gen strategy for the Durango. lol
    Last edited by mistercrow; 04-13-2013 at 11:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post


    That's a little old...2011 to be exact and indie dev support for XBLA was stronger than ever and still remains to this day.



    Some devs found PS3 hardware painful to work with but they still did. No one is gonna pass up an opportunity to make as much money as they can. XBL is still the place for indie devs.
    LOL A little old? No, it shows MS has been $#@!ting on indie devs since 2011. Being uneasy to work with isn't news that's exclusive to 2013.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    Sure, mynd. That means....almost nothing coming from you. A simple google search reveals your statement to be false (regarding crashes.)
    Either you're confusing "indie" with live arcade or you cant use google. A quick google of "xbox live arcade game crashs" brings up...fez...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Not all of them. Some literally couldn't get their game published on XBLA despite jumping through every necessary hoop in their path. They have pretty good reason to be pissy
    Have yet to here of one.

    Independent game developers face a lot of obstacles, from limited funding and AAA competition to marketing challenges and getting attention from an easily distracted press. But those hurdles can multiply when an indie developer decides to release a game on a console. Fez developer Phil Fish highlighted this fact last week, with a highly publicized complaint about being asked to pay tens of thousands of dollars in recertification fees to Microsoft in order to patch a known issue with the game.

    Clashes between Microsoft and indie developers are not a new phenomenon. Since 2008, World of Goo co-creator Ron Carmel has been surveying 200 of his fellow independent developers about their feelings on various platforms. Last year's survey showed evidence that interest in Xbox Live Arcade was waning among developers, while interest in PlayStation 3 was surging. What's more, a 48 percent plurality of the developers described working with Microsoft on Xbox Live Arcade as "excruciating," a level surpassed only by individual cell phone carriers. Working with Steam, on the other hand, was considered "very easy" by 64 percent of developers in the survey.

    Speaking to Ars Technica, Carmel clarified that those "excruciating" experiences centered on dealings with Microsoft Studios, the in-house publishing unit that releases independent XBLA games that don't have an established third-party publishing partner (like EA, Activision or Ubisoft). "Contract negotiations [with Microsoft Studios] are drawn out and adversarial," Carmel said. "I've heard many complaints about having to work with a producer, and their terms are the worst among all modern digital distribution channels." (Microsoft refused an opportunity to comment on this story.)

    Not only does going through Microsoft Studios mean keeping your game exclusive to Xbox Live Arcade for a certain period of time after launch, but the outfit also takes an additional percentage of a game's revenues on top of the standard cut taken for all Xbox Live Arcade titles, Carmel said. "That's why we see savvy console developers like Supergiant [Bastion] and Klei [Shank] go through third-party publishers—those publishers get better terms from XBLA (directly) than a small developer could get from Microsoft Studios, and they can launch the game simultaneously on multiple platforms."

    Avoiding that exclusivity clause is part of the reason Zeboyd games founder Robert Boyd said he didn't try for a full Xbox Live Arcade release for the recently released Penny Arcade Adventures: On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness Episode 3. Instead, Boyd adapted the Steam version of the game for the less popular Xbox Live Indie Games channel, which has much less stringent certification requirements, but also receives much less promotion from Microsoft. Boyd said he sees the XBLIG release as a "courtesy to our fans" that still allowed the game to be ported to "as many platforms as possible."
    The past is history

    Boyd praised Microsoft for doing some "great things" for the indie game community, including creating the Indie Games area as a proving ground for low-budget developers in the first place. But he worries that the company has "stopped progressing as far as fostering indie games go, at the same time that everyone else is focusing on indie development more and more." He cites Steam's easy post-launch updates, Sony's extensive outreach efforts to indie developers, and even Nintendo's increasing focus on digital distribution as signs that Microsoft is falling behind in this area.

    "Sure, Microsoft has a full schedule on XBLA right now, but if they want to continue to attract top talent to their platforms for 2013, 2014, and beyond, they need to step up their efforts and be more accommodating of smaller developers," Boyd said. "At the very least, they need to ease up on their patch rules. It doesn't matter how good your QA team is—if you're making something with the kind of complexity found in your typical modern game, you're not going to catch every bug the first time around. I really feel for [Fez programmer] Renaud Bedard, since I know how frustrating it is to find [out] about a bug and not be sure how to fix [it]."

    Not all indie developers are so negative about the hassles of Xbox Live Arcade publishing. Derek Yu, whose cult hit PC game Spelunky was recently adapted for XBLA, said he went in to the port knowing full well that there were additional costs to doing business on consoles. "It didn't deter me because I was committed to developing a console game," he said. "In my opinion, the entire process of console development is prohibitive—not just the expenses but also the selection process and the time invested into understanding the platform. You should only do it if you have the resources and really want to be on a console."

    But those "prohibitive" console development hurdles don't even serve any real purpose, according to Braid developer Jonathan Blow. While strict certification requirements (and their attendant temporal and monetary costs) may have made sense back in the disc-only days, Blow says, the process has become actively harmful in releasing today's downloadable indie titles.

    "The certification processes of all these platform holders were based on the idea that all these steps they test are absolutely necessary for software to run robustly, and that software robustness is super-important for the health of their platform and its perception by customers," Blow said. "But look at iOS. There is almost no certification process for iOS, so by the Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo theory, the apps should be crashing all the time, everyone should think of iOS as sucky, etc. But in fact this is not what is happening. There is no public outcry for more testing and robustness of iOS software."

    Blow called out console makers for micromanaging developers with certification requirements, like the need to include that ever-present "do not to turn off their console when a game is saving" message. The time spent developing and testing for minutia like this adds up, he said, arguing it could be better spent working on the games themselves.

    "The edge that both Apple and Valve have going into the future is that they both genuinely care about the end-user experience and want to make it as good as possible," Blow said. "Which coincidentally seems to be the place that these consoles are handicapped due to their corporate culture. Can anyone look at the current 360 or PS3 dashboards and legitimately say that those are products of an entity that deeply cares about user experience?"

    While upstarts like Ouya are trying to remove all the barriers that give indie console developers such headaches, Blow fears the current certification model might be too "baked into the DNA" of the established console makers to be changed any time soon.

    "If the actual way the next-gen consoles work is much like the way they work now, they will be functionally archaic in the marketplace," he said. "Keep in mind that they have to compete with the iPad 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. Any idea what the iPad 5 or 6 are going to look like, how powerful they are going to be, what other user experience benefits they are going to have? I sure don't."
    http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/0...onsole-gaming/

    I'm told that several MS devs have this picture wallpapered in their offices.
    ROFL.
    Last edited by mynd; 04-13-2013 at 08:21.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Either you're confusing "indie" with live arcade or you cant use google. A quick google of "xbox live arcade game crashs" brings up...fez...
    I wasn't talking about fez (nor was it the game that people were talking about crashing in the results I found.) I don't see the point in differentiating between Indie games and Xbox Live Arcade when we're talking about quality control.

    Their stringent certification method is thrown to the wayside when it comes to XBLA games?

    You guys seem to be using the word indie at your own convenience. Minecraft is an indie title when you need to show that indie games can be successful on the Xbox platform.

    Before you respond with saying look up what indie means. I know what it means....indie games usually involve a small team or an individual. Minecraft being an arcade title goes to show that you're only making the distinction because it suits your point, you want to look the other way.
    Last edited by sainraja; 04-13-2013 at 08:53.

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    Read article I posted above, nuff said.

    Instead, Boyd adapted the Steam version of the game for the less popular Xbox Live Indie Games channel, which has much less stringent certification requirements, but also receives much less promotion from Microsoft.
    For the record we don't even get XBLIG in NZ. Nor is this article about XBLIG


    XBLIG and XBLA are two completely different things.

    I didn't even mention minecraft?
    Last edited by mynd; 04-13-2013 at 09:44.
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    Why are there 2 seperate certification processes?

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    My understanding is the indie game channel does not require heavy certification because they do not charge as much, nor promoted, a lot of the games are based on XNA game studio, which isn't really optimised nor flexible code.

    I cant really say, we don't have it in NZ. But certainly when you are paying a fair whack of money for arcade game, you do not want it to crash.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yup, and he's one of the pissy ones.
    1 year after it's release and FEZ has now sold 200,000 units on XBLA..
    http://polytroncorporation.com/what-...ts-been-a-year

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yungstar 2006 View Post
    1 year after it's release and FEZ has now sold 200,000 units on XBLA..
    http://polytroncorporation.com/what-...ts-been-a-year
    Those are some good numbers. MS may not have the greatest standing with some indies but some games manage to do pretty darn good. Hopefully we get more good indie games for the 720.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Read article I posted above, nuff said.



    For the record we don't even get XBLIG in NZ. Nor is this article about XBLIG


    XBLIG and XBLA are two completely different things.

    I didn't even mention minecraft?
    I know you didn't mention it. That's why I said you guys and I said this because you didn't correct him when he used that [Minecraft] as an example of an successful indie title but you were quick to tell me what is and what isn't considered an indie title (well, what you said was that I am confused.)

    Let's not ignore the fact that Minecraft was released under the 'Arcade' banner.

    My understanding is the indie game channel does not require heavy certification because they do not charge as much, nor promoted, a lot of the games are based on XNA game studio, which isn't really optimised nor flexible code.

    I cant really say, we don't have it in NZ. But certainly when you are paying a fair whack of money for arcade game, you do not want it to crash.
    Their certification is so good that they have two separate ones? and one is not very stringent? lol
    Last edited by sainraja; 04-14-2013 at 22:56.

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