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    About the Religion Rules on PSU Forums

    The rule states no Religious Threads on PSU. Then why is it Religious bashing is allowed? A lot of forums have the rule about "No Religion Bashing". I think PSU needs that rule. People can't seem to solely state their opinion without their beliefs getting bashed and insulted. That can and probably already has led to flames.

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    Religion bashing is not allowed.

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    it is a verse that we stand by i guess... It is pointless to have a bashing if all of the people are different
    Plato and Aristotle, a detail of The School of Athens, a fresco by Raphael. Aristotle gestures to the earth, representing his belief in knowledge

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal_NFS View Post
    Religion bashing is not allowed.
    You're the reason I cannot browse this forum at work.

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    Let it be noted that "This religion is not true," or, "Here are faults with this religion," =/= Religious bashing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal_NFS View Post
    Religion bashing is not allowed.
    But it's not stated in the official list of the rules. It needs to be if that's the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Let it be noted that "This religion is not true," or, "Here are faults with this religion," =/= Religious bashing.
    It's up to this forum. I was once on a forum in which yes, that was considered religious bashing. Their reasoning was the person believed the religion to be true so who has the right to say it's not true? The second one was definitely considered religious bashing, the one statement about "faults". Pointing out faults is saying something bad about a religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Let it be noted that "This religion is true," or, "Here are faults with atheist," =/= atheist bashing.
    edit ur post to show my point in this matter



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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    It's up to this forum. I was once on a forum in which yes, that was considered religious bashing. Their reasoning was the person believed the religion to be true so who has the right to say it's not true? The second one was definitely considered religious bashing, the one statement about "faults". Pointing out faults is saying something bad about a religion.
    Ha.

    No, stating your opinion and pointing out qualities of reality is not bashing. Bashing is someone saying, "Religious people are stupid and ignorant," or, "Christianity is a cesspool of disgusting acts." This is entirely different to my aforementioned examples, which are legitimate and humble responses. For any forum to count that as bashing, and silence people for it, is wrong. Just because you choose to believe in a religion does not deliver your opinion or right to speak above mine. Recognize that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Let it be noted that "This religion is not true," or, "Here are faults with this religion," =/= Religious bashing.
    I agree, so long as there is solid reasoning behind the assertion. The first statement, to me, could qualify if no reasons are given.


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    To clarify, when I mentioned my second example, I was referring to mature and reasonable criticisms of religion. Such as when you (Vulgotha) and I had that little debate a couple of years ago, and I was voicing against certain aspects of Christianity. Yet despite multiple pages passing not a single blow was thrown or received. We proved things can be handled in a gentleman-esque fashion. If religious discussion is allowed, everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions and thoughts of it. And we shouldn't confuse counter concerns and responses as bashing. This functions as a method to try and silence opposing viewpoints, and that's not right at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    To clarify, when I mentioned my second example, I was referring to mature and reasonable criticisms of religion. Such as when you (Vulgotha) and I had that little debate a couple of years ago, and I was voicing against certain aspects of Christianity. Yet despite multiple pages passing not a single blow was thrown or received. We proved things can be handled in a gentleman-esque fashion. If religious discussion is allowed, everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions and thoughts of it. And we shouldn't confuse counter concerns and responses as bashing. This functions as a method to try and silence opposing viewpoints, and that's not right at all.
    Religious discussion is not allowed. It's stated in the rules. A person who states their opinion in a thread and says their religion is why is not discussing the religion. If someone comes along and says something bad about their religion, well that's not only religious bashing, but taking the thread off topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Ha.

    No, stating your opinion and pointing out qualities of reality is not bashing. Bashing is someone saying, "Religious people are stupid and ignorant," or, "Christianity is a cesspool of disgusting acts." This is entirely different to my aforementioned examples, which are legitimate and humble responses. For any forum to count that as bashing, and silence people for it, is wrong. Just because you choose to believe in a religion does not deliver your opinion or right to speak above mine. Recognize that.
    But who are you to say what's reality and what's fiction? What's reality to you may not be reality to another person, regardless of how many links to back up your opinion of reality.

    I'm not understanding how a person stating something about their religion and someone not being able to say something like, "So, [random religion] is wrong any way" is having their opinion above yours.

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    No because on one hand, he's saying "faults with religion", you're saying "faults with atheists" unless you meant to say "faults with atheism"...to me that's not bashing.

    If one cannot take criticism then one must rethink about their level of faith. What matters in the end is, what do you feel about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    Religious discussion is not allowed. It's stated in the rules. A person who states their opinion in a thread and says their religion is why is not discussing the religion. If someone comes along and says something bad about their religion, well that's not only religious bashing, but taking the thread off topic.
    You're missing the point entirely. Firstly, I clearly stated, "If religious discussion is allowed..." Secondly, again, you're mixing two situations under different context.

    I'm Christian. = I'm an atheist.

    I believe in Christianity because x. = My lack of believe/hold of criticisms is due to y.

    The first is a simple statement, whereas the latter is a position open to argument. What you've done is mix the first theistic example with the second atheistic example, then essentially said, "See, they're different." Well, of course they would be, if you choose to misunderstand the subject at hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    But who are you to say what's reality and what's fiction? What's reality to you may not be reality to another person, regardless of how many links to back up your opinion of reality.
    This is going into the realm of some deep-$#@! philosophy and gratuitous semantics. I'd be happy to debate this, or at least examine these understandings with you, elsewhere if you'd like.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    I'm not understanding how a person stating something about their religion and someone not being able to say something like, "So, [random religion] is wrong any way" is having their opinion above yours.
    In particular, what you said here:

    I was once on a forum in which yes, that was considered religious bashing. Their reasoning was the person believed the religion to be true so who has the right to say it's not true?
    Examine that closely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    But who are you to say what's reality and what's fiction? What's reality to you may not be reality to another person, regardless of how many links to back up your opinion of reality.

    I'm not understanding how a person stating something about their religion and someone not being able to say something like, "So, [random religion] is wrong any way" is having their opinion above yours.
    An interesting point and has merit philosophically, however the issue therein lies with a lack of progress and stagnation. To never challenge ideas or test yourself leads only to ignorance and ruin.

    The metaphysical question of 'what is real' haunts us now more than ever, in spite of scientific discovery. The more we know, the more we just don't know. Our reality is shaped more often than not by 'probabilities' as opposed to set in stone certainties. As human beings, the reality is we operate off of assumptions and by rounding up answers. That is, pragmatism. We're all guilty of this.

    Assumptions are not necessarily a bad thing, if we didn't make them I doubt very much our race would have progressed very much. But we have to recognize it for what it is.

    Quantum mechanics has really shown us how chaotic, if not sophisticated and insanely granular, reality is. In fact reality can be altered simply by the act of observing it.

    With all of this being said, there is still order. There are still absolutes. I don't argue that we can ever know it all, or even that we are able to as human beings (we may simply be too limited) but I believe we can know at least some of it. I think our progress has indicated at least this much is true.

    So the pursuit of truth, with all of the above kept in mind, is a very healthy and reasonable thing. You have to be open and receptive to new ideas, be cognitively flexible.


    I happen to believe in a rational and ordered cosmos that was designed. Ergo I think that we as humans have been gifted with the abilities to understand this universe. To embrace the logos. At the very least, much of it.

    Discourse does not have to lead to anger or violence, though it often does. To stay away from reason and trying to ascertain truth- what kind of life is that? Socrates had that choice and he decided to drink the hemlock instead.

    So, can we ever 'objectively validate' the absolute reality of something? No, at least not yet. But like the concept of Pi eventually you have to terminate the endless regress in order to apply the practical concepts. Pi still works for us just fine, in spite of the fact that its total value can never really be known.

    So I guess in many ways for us its more a matter of "more right" vs "less right".
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 04-20-2013 at 05:45.


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    I'll make a quick note of this. I have to get up in 5.5 hours to drive 130ish miles, and I really should be asleep.

    Something we must all accept is the rule of uncertainty. Even science, as fantastic as it is, relies entirely on observation. This is the possible extent of all human knowledge, and is the only base from which we can extrapolate all of our understanding. Human observation is also innately flawed. However, when I state, 'Established in reality," what I mean is truths we've established under the context unto which we understand the universe: axioms. For example, we know water contains oxygen atoms. We know the Sun is larger than the Earth. These are confirmations of what we can observe, and they're backed by numerous tests, examples, and studies. These details are founded in reality.

    This is not to say they are absolute truths. The world we see could be the matrix. You could be dreaming this, and you'll wake up to the real world soon. We could postulate any infinite number of scenarios, and consider their implications individually and carefully, but these things don't carry much weight. None of them operate as foundations from which we can work from. Indeed, they're all actually quite moot compared to what we can actually obverse and record as information. We have to accept and take some safety in measurements and reason. This is what I mean by 'reality', Black Wolf. You really can't skate around it, because anything otherwise is just painful conjecture.

    And frankly, there also comes a moment of blatant common sense to the whole thing. Like, seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Quantum mechanics has really shown us how chaotic, if not sophisticated and insanely granular, reality is. In fact reality can be altered simply by the act of observing it.
    To clarify, while quantum mechanics is very complicated and mind-bending, the truth of the matter (heh) has some coherence behind it. It's not that the particles, by some mechanism, are aware they're being watched, which then causes them to function differently. What happens is that, since quantum systems are so small, any scenario which we can observe then effects influence into the system; effectively becoming a part of the system. This skews and alters the results from if the test had remained unobserved.

    I know it sounds really awesome and mysterious, but this is actually one of the lesser complexities of quantum physics. I was disappointed, too.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 04-20-2013 at 07:14.
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    Religion is a constructor form of belief and is scripted to make believe is a set of lines in a page and that book/words mean nothing unless you act upon them... You struggle to the bases of survival and yet you conform to words that make you Conviced you our free and yet it makes you constructed to a belief that has laws, rules and limits
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    To clarify, while quantum mechanics is very complicated and mind-bending, the truth of the matter (heh) has some coherence behind it. It's not that the particles, by some mechanism, are aware they're being watched, which then causes them to function differently. What happens is that, since quantum systems are so small, any scenario which we can observe then effects influence into the system; effectively becoming a part of the system. This skews and alters the results from if the test had remained unobserved.

    I know it sounds really awesome and mysterious, but this is actually one of the lesser complexities of quantum physics. I was disappointed, too.
    Why would you be? Nothing you've stated goes against what I've said.

    Observation still influences reality, even if we know 'why' behind it. I was never under the impression we didn't have theories as to why, but to me that was somewhat irrelevant to the point I was conveying. Though I haven't read it put in so easy to understand terms before, and for that I do thank you. You framed the answer in such a way that it made sense to me and I appreciate that.

    Reality is a very slippery thing, and our own perceptions assuredly color it. One way or another.

    But through it all there are anchors.

    You are correct, we can understand things within the context of the framework we find ourselves in. It's almost maddening how deep the rabbit hole goes on this.

    What Rapture and I are saying, Black Wolf, is that through it all it pays to question and exchange ideas. Getting upset and anxious over potential conflict is.. Egregious. There will always be conflict, but that doesn't mean you have to instigate it. Nor that we have to sacrifice the quest for knowledge and truth in the vain hope of staving it off.

    To put it simply, say there are two people. One believes reality is 1 the other says reality is 0. These two views are in conflict, they cannot both be right. In this limited illustration, I'd argue that the appropriate thing to do would be to analyze the situation and pool all the available knowledge and think hard on it to try and find an answer.

    Simply leaving the question of "well which is it?" alone because it might ruffle feathers and accepting ignorance.. Well, that to me is akin to cowardice. Though cowardice for all the best intentions.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 04-20-2013 at 07:49.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Why would you be? Nothing you've stated goes against what I've said.
    Not terribly so, but the specific language you used, coupled with the fact that many (and I do mean many, so please don't take offense) people don't accurately understand the observation effect, led me to think that maybe you weren't totally knowledgeable on it. It's not necessarily that the mere act of observing particles causes the change to take place, but instead it's because our methods of observation are kinda $#@!ty and $#@! with the results. An example of this is attempting to observe quantum superposition (which is, essentially, when a particle spins in different directions or holds different passive states at the same time), but to even observe this electronically we have to bump a photon off of it, which skews the actual results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    To put it simply, say there are two people. One believes reality is 1 the other says reality is 0. These two views are in conflict, they cannot both be right. In this limited illustration, I'd argue that the appropriate thing to do would be to analyze the situation and pool all the available knowledge and think hard on it to try and find an answer.
    Indeed. If any held position isn't able to stand up to scrutiny then it really does question the validity of this position, and one has to ask why it even exists at all. It's in everyone's interests to keep an open mind and search for any greater truths available. There's only potential gain involved.
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    I thought Atheists took a stance of "No religion for me, thanks" and left it at that. wouldnt questioning/picking at/denying and whatever of other religions make on Anti-theist?

    Anyway, a thread made to discuss the rules on religious discussion on the forum has turned into just that... and somehow physics...


    Shouldnt the rule be more like

    "Theological discussion and the discussion of their merits is prohibited in any form"??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Let it be noted that "This religion is not true," or, "Here are faults with this religion," =/= Religious bashing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Ha.

    No, stating your opinion and pointing out qualities of reality is not bashing. Bashing is someone saying, "Religious people are stupid and ignorant," or, "Christianity is a cesspool of disgusting acts." This is entirely different to my aforementioned examples, which are legitimate and humble responses. For any forum to count that as bashing, and silence people for it, is wrong. Just because you choose to believe in a religion does not deliver your opinion or right to speak above mine. Recognize that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    To clarify, when I mentioned my second example, I was referring to mature and reasonable criticisms of religion. Such as when you (Vulgotha) and I had that little debate a couple of years ago, and I was voicing against certain aspects of Christianity. Yet despite multiple pages passing not a single blow was thrown or received. We proved things can be handled in a gentleman-esque fashion. If religious discussion is allowed, everyone should be allowed to voice their opinions and thoughts of it. And we shouldn't confuse counter concerns and responses as bashing. This functions as a method to try and silence opposing viewpoints, and that's not right at all.
    stop talking so much common sense!

    the matter (as with all debates) should fall to the discretion of the mods. so long as people conduct themselves in a proper manner and acknowledge the viewpoint of those opposite, the matter should be left alone, and the members left to 'discover' the point of their debate.

    use the report button if you feel someone is taking things too far. there's no need to fan the flames and continue with the argument...
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    our rules used to state that we would allow no religious topics or political. We loosened the rule for political topics, to test the waters on how people handled themselves. It worked pretty well. Most people have respected the political thread and have had some good discussions.

    So as of this morning, I have amended the rule completely to encompass religious topics. For a temporary (possibly) run.


    to be clear, I don't want to see reports like "he hurt my feelings calling out religion as a falsehood" if the person explains why. If I explained my views on religion, I am betting most who believe would report me LOL

    What I am saying is, the whole premise behind why this thread was started is actually quite rude to people who choose not to follow religion, or have their own faith. People on both sides of religious belief, be it believing, or believing it to be a lie, should be able to discuss the topic.

    Their reasoning was the person believed the religion to be true so who has the right to say it's not true? The second one was definitely considered religious bashing, the one statement about "faults". Pointing out faults is saying something bad about a religion.
    Who has the right? Everyone. Saying something bad about a religion is bashing it? Then you really don't want to talk to me. I have my beliefs and ideals, but I hate organized religion as an organization. IMO, you do not need to attend church to have beliefs. To some, that is saying something bad about religion, but did I ever slam the belief system? Nope. See the terrible gray lines this topic can generate.


    Let's see how the new rule goes, and decide later on how it has progressed, or regressed as a topic.

    the new rule is:

    22. Special Note Regarding abuse of Religious and political topics - Religious topics are discourage, however we know from time to time members will engage in a meaningful discussion. Any member trolling, flaming or being outright disrespectful in a political or religious topic will be infracted without warning. In addition, the amount of infraction points issued for any unacceptable behavior in these threads is higher than it is elsewhere in the forum. This is a result of members behaving poorly in these topics on previous occasions. PSU promotes intelligent discussion and the staff will clamp down very heavily on any member abusing their posting privileges in these topics.
    LMAO

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    Religion is just a sore subject of argument for most. For some, the mere question of religion is considered to be an insult, hence is the reason it is so strict on most forums. But honestly, if I for example am easily offended about the question of my religion, I stay clear of those threads, and let people go about their merry ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by claud3 View Post
    ...
    I don't think it's a pure joke. Most people don't understand religion. Generally it has more to do with their upbringing and experiences rather than the religion itself. Note that in no way am I saying that any religion is right or wrong, I'm saying that it's valid.
    Last edited by Ixion; 04-22-2013 at 15:48.

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