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Thread: The Bible

  1. #26
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    To the Op, there has been some changes in the wording of the Bible due to experts gaining a better understanding of the ancient Hebrew and Greek text. However, there are also translations and experts who have changed word arrangements and word meanings to make the Bible appear, for lack of a better term, not so closed minded or old fashioned. I believe there is a God in heaven who created the universe and and sent his son to die for sin so mankind wouldn't pay that price. For me I try to remain as objective as I can when I study scripture in the sense that I am just a man and God is God. When Job loses his family, his health, and his wealth he asks God why, and God asks him in return where were you when I created this and did this.

    I cannot understand all of God or all of his ways and that is where my faith comes in. Despite changes in texts and meanings throughout the years, the overall theme is still there. Sin entered the world and God being a righteous God required a payment for sin. In the Old Testament it was an annual sacrifice that the priest would make on behalf if the nation of Israel, because there was no way they could keep all of God's laws and not sin. Christ came to be the new sacrifice to take away sin. He came no to abolish the law but to fulfill the law in that he is the only sacrifice worthy of taking away sin.

    The Apostles especially Paul focused on how there is nothing that man can do to wipe away our sin. They tried to get people to understand that following the law would still lead to death because no one could follow every law perfectly. Christ's death and resurrection defeated sin and death and allowed those who would trust in him to be free. They no longer had to follow the old law, but trust in Christ because it is through Christ that God sees us as sons and heirs to the kingdom.

    Unfortunately to many Christians believe that their freedom in Christ makes them better than others and try to force rules on other people about how to live, and some even change the meaning of the text to prove their position. That is not what it is about. It is about resting in the fact that Christ took our place and now we can have freedom in him. That is the message of the Bible and throughout history it hasn't changed. As I study the Bible ad come to parts that I don't understand, I pray. I ask God to help me see what He wants me to see. It is by faith that I believe the Bible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal_NFS View Post
    It sure is. Without something to fear, people would not care how bad they were in their life. People needed something to believe to keep the world civil. They need to think there is something good after they die, to keep them good as they are alive.
    "Religion is not morality. Theists ask me, 'If there’s no god, what would stop me from raping and killing everyone I want to.' My answer is always: 'I, myself, have raped and killed everyone I want to ... and the number for both is zero.' Behaving morally because of a hope of reward or a fear of punishment is not morality. Morality is not bribery or threats. Religion is bribery and threats. Humans have morality. We don’t need religion."

    -Penn Jillette

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    "Religion is not morality. Theists ask me, 'If there’s no god, what would stop me from raping and killing everyone I want to.' My answer is always: 'I, myself, have raped and killed everyone I want to ... and the number for both is zero.' Behaving morally because of a hope of reward or a fear of punishment is not morality. Morality is not bribery or threats. Religion is bribery and threats. Humans have morality. We don’t need religion."

    -Penn Jillette

    Unfortunately I think people do need religion to be good. I am sure there would be much more murder, rape, etc, if people did not fear what would happen to them after they die. The bible puts fear in to people, nobody knows if there is an afterlife, and people are afraid of being damned for eternity if there really is one.

    For all we know, Jesus was real, but he could have been an opium smoking magician....
    Last edited by Lethal; 04-22-2013 at 21:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    "Religion is not morality. Theists ask me, 'If there’s no god, what would stop me from raping and killing everyone I want to.' My answer is always: 'I, myself, have raped and killed everyone I want to ... and the number for both is zero.' Behaving morally because of a hope of reward or a fear of punishment is not morality. Morality is not bribery or threats. Religion is bribery and threats. Humans have morality. We don’t need religion."

    -Penn Jillette
    I recall you being a staunch theist.


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    I believe in the promise my God has given to me. I believe the bible is real and has been manipulated over the years. Some of it is still intact, while some of it isn't. I do believe that there is good and evil, inbetweeners and non-believers. And I also believe at the end of the day. When the dust settles and the clouds part... every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

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    The bible....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal_NFS View Post
    Unfortunately I think people do need religion to be good. I am sure there would be much more murder, rape, etc, if people did not fear what would happen to them after they die. The bible puts fear in to people, nobody knows if there is an afterlife, and people are afraid of being damned for eternity if there really is one.
    I really must question the ethics of a person or society if they're only good people because of fear of god, not because they're actually good people. Regardless, this still isn't the case whatsoever. You don't see atheists going out and raping and killing people willy-nilly. Let's take a look at some demographics:


    Well, would you look at that. The most non-religious nations include countries such as Germany and Netherlands, which are incredibly peaceful and progressive. Austria, France, Iceland, Japan, South Korea, etc -- are these examples of immoral or violent societies? No, not one bit.

    Religion doesn't keep people from being immoral. Certainly there may be an environmental influence, but this isn't specific to religion at all. There's basically no evidence to suggest religion is what keeps a person from being bad. And if it did, I could list all the atrocities religion has caused people to do. What makes a person be a decent or good human being is empathy, not religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal_NFS View Post
    For all we know, Jesus was real, but he could have been an opium smoking magician....
    There was a man named Jesus, but many details on him are sketchy. We do know he claimed to be the son of God, and that he did gather some small number of followers, and he did appear as a threat to Rome, for which he was executed. That's really about it.
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    The Argument of Religion = Morality is worn out, ill be honest. People spout it either side of the argument, Having faith means morality, not having faith makes no diffrent yadda yadda yadda.

    Its the same as Video games. If someone said to you that adam lanza or whatver his name is done the school shootings because of violent video games, chances are you would say "No that was his own doing, games dont make people violent,its down to the individual"

    Its something im always saying on almost every matter. its down to the individual, people make their own damned choices in life. Sure religion and video games can change someones outlook on stuff but it still comes down to the individual. people have brains and freewill to choose what they want to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I recall you being a staunch theist.
    It wasn't until I was 17 or so that I began to think about humanities finite limitations. Up until then I only thought of God as a powerful dude in the clouds. So after I started to think more deeply on the matter (in addition to attending a Jesuit university), I realized our limitations and the need for faith to assert anything in our reality as true. God made a whole lot more sense to me, as God is seen as the unknowable infinite that gives purpose to our fleeting, finite lives.

    However, we ultimately don't know. We do know there's something more, but we don't understand it, and believing in God is just replacing something we don't understand with something we don't understand. I don't see the point. So that's my current position. Agnosticism.

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    Isn`t the bible just a collection of writings from various others ....just that the writings all reach the same point. Worship god (bit crude of a definition but thats it in a nutshell)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jj03 View Post
    Isn`t the bible just a collection of writings from various others ....just that the writings all reach the same point. Worship god (bit crude of a definition but thats it in a nutshell)

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
    I took a class in college called 'Early Christian Writings' and it was basically about how the different authors of the Bible were each trying to convert a different sect of people to Christianity (i.e. the Jews, the Pagans, etc), and there were direct contradictions in result.

    I think I might have had a rogue professor, since this was a Catholic school and everyone else who took the class just had to memorize parts of the Bible and what-not, whereas my Professor taught us how the Bible was used to manipulate people.
    Last edited by Ixion; 04-23-2013 at 17:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    I took a class in college called 'Early Christian Writings' and it was basically about how the different authors of the Bible were each trying to convert a different sect of people to Christianity (i.e. the Jews, the Pagans, etc), and there were direct contradictions in result.

    I think I might have had a rogue professor, since this was a Catholic school and everyone else who took the class just had to memorize parts of the Bible and what-not, whereas my Professor taught us how the Bible was used to manipulate people.
    Cool. Thanks for that...i guess it was a work of many applications. Myself, i remain open, as religion is really complicated, so i want to understand more before opening my mouth further. For the record, i do not believe in god. Period. I am, however, open to further education.

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    Thanks for all the replies. Happy seeing other peoples views. Ixon i wish we had that class at my school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    I really must question the ethics of a person or society if they're only good people because of fear of god, not because they're actually good people. Regardless, this still isn't the case whatsoever. You don't see atheists going out and raping and killing people willy-nilly. Let's take a look at some demographics:


    Well, would you look at that. The most non-religious nations include countries such as Germany and Netherlands, which are incredibly peaceful and progressive. Austria, France, Iceland, Japan, South Korea, etc -- are these examples of immoral or violent societies? No, not one bit.

    Religion doesn't keep people from being immoral. Certainly there may be an environmental influence, but this isn't specific to religion at all. There's basically no evidence to suggest religion is what keeps a person from being bad. And if it did, I could list all the atrocities religion has caused people to do. What makes a person be a decent or good human being is empathy, not religion.



    There was a man named Jesus, but many details on him are sketchy. We do know he claimed to be the son of God, and that he did gather some small number of followers, and he did appear as a threat to Rome, for which he was executed. That's really about it.

    Sorry, I still stand by my opinion. It is easy to show demographics because the majority of the world believes in religion. Take religion away, and watch that chart blow up. Like a virus, the craziness would spread like wild fire.

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    Modern psychology, neuroscience, demographic statistics, and case samples purely demonstrate otherwise, but OK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Modern psychology, neuroscience, demographic statistics, and case samples purely demonstrate otherwise, but OK.
    You mean assumptions?

    I have my opinion, you have yours. It's all good! As long as we both sleep well at night, that is all that matters.

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    Did you just call numerous legitimate studies and field confirmations assumptions? I don't even... That's not how that works.

    You've totally put the cart before the horse here. Religions have these morals and people abide by them because they're mostly instinctual to begin with. Humans are a group species, and we dictate our actions based on the opinions of others and the response of society. Your thinking that everything would just go to $#@! without religion is entirely conjecture, and it's just laughable in the face of numerous counter reasonings.

    What you're essentially stating is that atheism inherently leads to evil if given the chance, which is absurd. It has no basis whatsoever. Atheists are perfectly normal people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal_NFS View Post
    It sure is. Without something to fear, people would not care how bad they were in their life. People needed something to believe to keep the world civil. They need to think there is something good after they die, to keep them good as they are alive.

    Movie or not, I think "The Book of Eli" shows exactly why we have a bible. Why all areas of the world have a religion. To keep the world civil.
    Yes. This is exactly why all atheists like myself go around killing, pillaging, and raping those of different beliefs than us. Oh wait. No that doesn't happen.

    I would hate to view other people the way you view people. That we are all one imaginary baby sitter away from wanting to harm our fellow man.

    "You don't need religion to have morals. If you can't determine right from wrong, then you lack empathy, not religion" - Unknown

    "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don't want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don't want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you. You know what I mean?" - Penn Jillette


    “Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.” - Isaac Asimov.
    Last edited by jinsoo; 04-24-2013 at 13:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal_NFS View Post
    And just because someone writes a book, does not mean it is true.....




    I understand that there was a war, but it is the bible that will bring society back. The movie shows what it would be like without religion, without a bible. This is why it was so important to find, or write the bible again. It was the entire point of the movie.
    Are you kidding me right now? You act like someone got in a time machine, traveled to some point in the future, and then came back and said this is what they witnessed happening. The plot for the movie came from some writer's head! I can't believe you think that this movie is what would actually happen without religion. You know, there's also a cemetery somewhere in Maine where you can bury your dead pet and it will come back to life. It's scary to me that you seem to have such a hard time deciphering fiction from reality.

    And for the record, the likely source for our morality is evolution. Individual members of a group benefit when the group as a whole is healthy and unified. So in essence, helping others is somewhat of a selfish act because it also helps you. There's also strength in numbers. Just look at others species. Primates live similarly to how we do and thrive in the wild. Look at a pride of lions as well. A couple of members might make the kill, but they all share in the feast. Why? Because helping members of your pack helps you and makes it more likely for your continued survival. If a monkey were to kill his entire troop, I would not bet on him having an easy time of surviving for very long after.
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    it is letters put together too make you think... You either accept or not

    the true result, is what is your mind thinking
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    the bible is just a book and nothing else..... People that take it as universal agreement, need to look in the mirror
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    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful" - Seneca
    Pretty sure this helps explain why that guy wanted the bible in Book of Eli. It would have been a useful tool to gain control of people who still believed. On the overall though, the neither the bible or religion is a necessity for people to be good. If only we could ask all the victims of church and crusading.

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    Then it is a false truth... So if i was to take the workings of H.G.WELLS as the bible, does that make me any different
    Plato and Aristotle, a detail of The School of Athens, a fresco by Raphael. Aristotle gestures to the earth, representing his belief in knowledge

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