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    TotalBiscuit DESTROYS used game arguments



    Well I've never bought a used game except once when the new was out of stock (Dead Space 2) The bit about why there are steam sales is quite revealing. GameStop - Power to the shareholder

    Off topic: I wish Warframe comes to ps4, but then I wonder if my PC account will transfer over or not. He was really good compared to me
    EDIT: Game confirmed for ps4
    Last edited by Itachi; 06-05-2013 at 03:59.

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    likewise i don't support the used market. not out of spite for other people, but because that money doesn't find its way to the devs, i believe it was discussed here months ago.

    and that REALLY is the bottom line: the devs see nothing from the used game market.

    to defend the state of the used game market in its current form would be considered very selfish imo. people should turn to the Gaming Outlets. infact, the last time it was discussed here Sony said the VERY SAME thing.
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    He's wrong. Simple as that for me. He likes to be contrary, even antagonistic. It generates views.

    I have also worked in game retail and it's true, they do tell you to push used and push it often. Of course they do, it's the only way they can make profit. But most of the people I ever asked said no thanks (and their eyes said stop wasting my time, don't blame them). The people who regularly buy used don't even use money, they use in-store credit for the games they just traded in. That isn't lost revenue no matter which way you try to spin it.

    Gamestop, GAME etc are not faultless in this, they are not some poor victims. But their greedy attitude towards the used market was a direct result of making peanuts in profit when selling new. My old manager once told me that we made less than 3 profit on every new PS3 sold, back when they were 400

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    He's wrong. Simple as that for me. He likes to be contrary, even antagonistic. It generates views.

    I have also worked in game retail and it's true, they do tell you to push used and push it often. Of course they do, it's the only way they can make profit. But most of the people I ever asked said no thanks (and their eyes said stop wasting my time, don't blame them). The people who regularly buy used don't even use money, they use in-store credit for the games they just traded in. That isn't lost revenue no matter which way you try to spin it.

    Gamestop, GAME etc are not faultless in this, they are not some poor victims. But their greedy attitude towards the used market was a direct result of making peanuts in profit when selling new. My old manager once told me that we made less than 3 profit on every new PS3 sold, back when they were 400
    The entire video proved that it IS lost revenue and it hurts the industry MUCH more than any other product

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    The entire video proved that it IS lost revenue and it hurts the industry MUCH more than any other product
    How is it though? The only people they are short changing are themselves. It's not lost revenue for publishers, like I said they aren't using hard cash most of the time. If the publishers had their OWN used game trading setup that cut out retail but still worked for customers, then yes. Right now, no

    This guy hasn't proven anything except that he's very opinionated

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    How is it though? The only people they are short changing are themselves. It's not lost revenue for publishers, like I said they aren't using hard cash most of the time. If the publishers had their OWN used game trading setup that cut out retail but still worked for customers, then yes. Right now, no

    This guy hasn't proven anything except that he's very opinionated
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    He's wrong. Simple as that for me. He likes to be contrary, even antagonistic. It generates views.

    I have also worked in game retail and it's true, they do tell you to push used and push it often. Of course they do, it's the only way they can make profit. But most of the people I ever asked said no thanks (and their eyes said stop wasting my time, don't blame them). The people who regularly buy used don't even use money, they use in-store credit for the games they just traded in. That isn't lost revenue no matter which way you try to spin it.

    Gamestop, GAME etc are not faultless in this, they are not some poor victims. But their greedy attitude towards the used market was a direct result of making peanuts in profit when selling new. My old manager once told me that we made less than 3 profit on every new PS3 sold, back when they were 400
    how do you think sony felt? they practically paid you ~100 per console sold o_O
    at least you got something....

    Retailers make the rules, its as simple as that. your in store manager doesn't amount to much if im being quite frank. fact of the matter is, people much higher then he is make decisions that could cripple game developers, game developers need gaming outlets to get their games out, and its a position they've moved to exploit.

    in fact, the Sony interview which was discussed here months ago; Devs, Publishers and console manufactures were ALL (yes, MS AND Sony) trying to get them to come to the table and sort out used games, and the retailers basically said '$#@! you, deal with it!'

    the fault lies with the retailers and not the Publishers and developers. retailers do jack but stock and sell the game. Publishers and Developers carry the cost of creating, running and maintaining it.
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    There's no objective traits here, so I wouldn't say he destroyed pro-used game arguments. Really, all he did was offer reasonable counter-points. If someone still wants used games then that's it, you can't show that they're wrong. Regardless, I never much cared for this debate to begin with, but he did offer some convincing statements.

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    I only agree with online passes, since buying a used game and playing online means the developer has to support you, yet they don't get your money.

    For offline games though? Nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    I only agree with online passes, since buying a used game and playing online means the developer has to support you, yet they don't get your money.

    For offline games though? Nope.
    really? but the dev created the game at a cost. what are you giving them in return?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    how do you think sony felt? they practically paid you ~100 per console sold o_O
    at least you got something....

    Retailers make the rules, its as simple as that. your in store manager doesn't amount to much if im being quite frank. fact of the matter is, people much higher then he is make decisions that could cripple game developers, game developers need gaming outlets to get their games out, and its a position they've moved to exploit.

    in fact, the Sony interview which was discussed here months ago; Devs, Publishers and console manufactures were ALL (yes, MS AND Sony) trying to get them to come to the table and sort out used games, and the retailers basically said '$#@! you, deal with it!'

    the fault lies with the retailers and not the Publishers and developers. retailers do jack but stock and sell the game. Publishers and Developers carry the cost of creating, running and maintaining it.
    And it's publishers who make hundreds of % profit. As I said above the retailers are not blameless but their used game policies are a direct result of publisher's new game policies. It's a case of "if you $#@! us over we have to $#@! you over to survive". And actually the only ones the retailers are $#@!ing over are us, the buying customer. Because selling used games is not a crime!

    The likes of EA have done a wonderful job of making the retailers look like the big bad guys but it's just not that simple. And it's funny how they're only too happy to jump into bed with Gamestop for a special offer when it suits them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    really? but the dev created the game at a cost. what are you giving them in return?
    Why should they get money because an owner of the game decided to sell it? What if the game was given to a friend for free? Should the publisher get a piece of that too?

    Making copies of the game is one thing, but selling your own game is completely different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    And it's publishers who make hundreds of % profit. As I said above the retailers are not blameless but their used game policies are a direct result of publisher's new game policies. It's a case of "if you $#@! us over we have to $#@! you over to survive". And actually the only ones the retailers are $#@!ing over are us, the buying customer. Because selling used games is not a crime!

    The likes of EA have done a wonderful job of making the retailers look like the big bad guys but it's just not that simple. And it's funny how they're only too happy to jump into bed with Gamestop for a special offer when it suits them.
    a game retails for around 50

    Sony take a cut
    Publishers take a cut
    Developers take a cut
    retailers take a cut
    ^crude but basic breakdown

    thats a little over 10 for each game sold assuming cuts are all equal (which they aren't) naturally, the person who pays for the venture (the publisher) gets the biggest cut. then its up for the others to fit into the remaining margin.

    if you bypass ONE disc through resell, only one person then takes a cut...how marvelous is this situation that on the resell only one person takes everything?

    you're assuming the retailers are reacting to online passes and such, that's incorrect, online passes and other attempts at revenue steams are a result of retailers NOT sharing the second round of income they enjoy.

    the game developers/publishers NEED the retailers, the retailers know this and are exploiting that fact. but that gamestop thing? you think that is the publishers? no. Gamestop demand special attention from the publishers to remain relevant. what does EA gain by segmenting the market? NOTHING! they'd rather milk every single one of us! not just the few who happen to visit gamestop.
    special promotions are retailers demanding they get something to stay ahead of the other game retail stores.

    the retailers are playing double dips on revenue for a product that isn't even theirs. the publishers don't like it, devs don't like it, and the console manufactures don't like it.
    retailers are preventing revenue from reaching developers when they resell a game and take ALL the revenue.

    its also the reason PSN and LIVE sell games at the SAME price as the retailers. retailers wont have ANYBODY undercutting them, if they do they simply not stock their games. a bigger blow to the publisher than it is to the retailer as they have no stake in the venture whatsoever.


    but as you say we are the victims in the end of that there is no argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    Why should they get money because an owner of the game decided to sell it? What if the game was given to a friend for free? Should the publisher get a piece of that too?

    Making copies of the game is one thing, but selling your own game is completely different.
    really Ixion? what can somebody get from a free transaction (that is completely legal in EU not in US )

    you're missing the point. more often then not, second hand copies will be bought from the retailer. irrespective of exchanges, you've still purchased a copy of the game (legally unfortunately). of that exchange, how much does the dev see?

    nothing. you aren't supporting the people who created your entertainment.
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 06-01-2013 at 02:42.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    really Ixion? what can somebody get from a free transaction (that is completely legal in EU not in US )

    you're missing the point. more often then not, second hand copies will be bought from the retailer. irrespective of exchanges, you've still purchased a copy of the game (legally unfortunately). of that exchange, how much does the dev see?

    nothing. you aren't supporting the people who created your entertainment.
    The creators are supported for the amount of people who currently own the game, not for the amount of people who just experienced the game. If that was the case, they would have to charge you every time you played through the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    The creators are supported for the amount of people who currently own the game, not for the amount of people who just experienced the game. If that was the case, they would have to charge you every time you played through the game.
    you are missing the point. the point is you are a lost sale. money that the devs could otherwise be receiving.

    if you walk into any business meeting and bring up 'lost sales' you'll have the attention of everybody in that room.

    but who is it who stole that sale? the retailers. the very same guys who make demands of the publishers and dictate their actions.

    revenue streams keep businesses afloat. with retailers taking 100% of used game sales, Publishers have to find other ways of recuperating that stream.

    this is not good for us on any level.

    if the retailers weren't such assholes, we'd all be much better with our used game experiences, and we wouldn't be having the discussion right now

    Revenue lost in whatever form is wasted potential.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    you are missing the point. the point is you are a lost sale. money that the devs could otherwise be receiving.

    if you walk into any business meeting and bring up 'lost sales' you'll have the attention of everybody in that room.

    but who is it who stole that sale? the retailers. the very same guys who make demands of the publishers and dictate their actions.

    revenue streams keep businesses afloat. with retailers taking 100% of used game sales, Publishers have to find other ways of recuperating that stream.

    this is not good for us on any level.

    if the retailers weren't such assholes, we'd all be much better with our used game experiences, and we wouldn't be having the discussion right now

    Revenue lost in whatever form is wasted potential.
    You're explaining why it would be good for the creator to receive part of used game sales, but you're not explaining why they deserve it. They sold a game to someone who didn't want to keep it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    You're explaining why it would be good for the creator to receive part of used game sales, but you're not explaining why they deserve it. They sold a game to someone who didn't want to keep it.
    or they sold it to someone with a really $#@!ty attention span

    im not explaining why its 'good' per se, rather, why its necessary.

    can you list the available revenue streams open to the developer? its VERY few in number isn't it?
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    There is nothing special about the video game market that warrants this anti-used game hysteria, when compared to other mediums/products that do not.

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    Yeah you COULD still continue to buy used games and that's your choice but then don't $#@! about market saturation of FPS games, season pass and sequel rehashes. If you are creating an industry that is so volatile because you wanna save 5 bucks then that is what you will have to deal with
    Quote Originally Posted by RedOrb_Collector View Post
    There is nothing special about the video game market that warrants this anti-used game hysteria, when compared to other mediums/products that do not.
    Did you even watch the video? He CLEARLY explained NUMEROUS entertainment mediums that are much different than games.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    or they sold it to someone with a really $#@!ty attention span
    Or they made a mediocre game and still want the money the customer received to get rid of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    can you list the available revenue streams open to the developer?
    Make games that are worth owning.

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    I guess when I sell my car to the neighbors, Ford should get a cut from that too...

    This is an old argument. If devs want in on the used games, then they should pony up some money to create the market. Gamestop PAYS for the game, and then sells it for the investment they put into it. If ND wants to get a cut, then they need to invest in the used games market. That goes for all devs/pubs. Period.

    Retailers/online, the create the market, and put money forward to do so. Devs/Pubs don't deserve MORE money from no other activity once the game is sold the first time.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    Or they made a mediocre game and still want the money the customer received to get rid of it.



    Make games that are worth owning.
    now you're not even trying

    the practice exists there's no denying it. and the business model used by Publishers and Developers requires a revenue stream fthrough game sales, which is hindered by used game sales.

    im not saying the practice is wrong, but if they sorted their $#@! out we'd benefit in the end.

    as you say, a game might not be somebodies cup of tea. but for somebody else it might be something that they're looking for. but the full price is a bit too much for them.

    in this instance if the revenue was split even, the person could purchase the used game at a less riskier price, and ALL parties would win. revenue gets to where it needs, customer trials their game, and potentially, comes back for the sequel.

    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I guess when I sell my car to the neighbors, Ford should get a cut from that too...

    This is an old argument. If devs want in on the used games, then they should pony up some money to create the market. Gamestop PAYS for the game, and then sells it for the investment they put into it. If ND wants to get a cut, then they need to invest in the used games market. That goes for all devs/pubs. Period.

    Retailers/online, the create the market, and put money forward to do so. Devs/Pubs don't deserve MORE money from no other activity once the game is sold the first time.
    your car costs around $10K to build, it's sold to you at 3 or 4 times that. completely different business model. there is no comparison....
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 06-01-2013 at 04:08.
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I guess when I sell my car to the neighbors, Ford should get a cut from that too...

    This is an old argument. If devs want in on the used games, then they should pony up some money to create the market. Gamestop PAYS for the game, and then sells it for the investment they put into it. If ND wants to get a cut, then they need to invest in the used games market. That goes for all devs/pubs. Period.

    Retailers/online, the create the market, and put money forward to do so. Devs/Pubs don't deserve MORE money from no other activity once the game is sold the first time.
    How come everyone is bringing up the same points the video already shot down?

    Car argument doesn't hold and is an example of false equivalency. Your car is a necessity NOT a luxury like your games. Car manufacturers have guarantees (for the most part) that they will sell their products because people NEED cars in today's world but on the other hand people don't NEED games.

    Secondly you car undergoes physical wear and tear so if you buy a car second hand you will theoretical be getting an inferior product in terms of performance compared to new. Furthermore when a car breaks down the new parts used come for the manufacturer and therefore supplies a reliable revenue stream for them. On the contrary there is no wear and tear of a game nowadays and even if there is, the resurfacing process costs a couple of bucks and are not going to the devs/publisher

    Third, you car's cost is not even in the same league to compare

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    now you're not even trying

    the practice exists there's no denying it. and the business model used by Publishers and Developers requires a revenue stream fthrough game sales, which is hindered by used game sales.

    im not saying the practice is wrong, but if they sorted their $#@! out we'd benefit in the end.

    as you say, a game might not be somebodies cup of tea. but for somebody else it might be something that they're looking for. but the full price is a bit too much for them.

    in this instance if the revenue was split even, the person could purchase the used game at a less riskier price, and ALL parties would win. revenue gets to where it needs, customer trials their game, and potentially, comes back for the sequel.


    your car costs around $10K to build, it's sold to you at 3 or 4 times that. completely different business model. there is no comparison....
    Really? How much did Uncharted 3 cost to make? How many were sold? And no, my Ford was not sold for 3 or 4 times it's cost to make lol. Anyways...

    They make one car, sell it, have to make another car, sell it. etc. ND, etc., make one game and sell millions for the cost of making one game. The 20 million cost earns 180 million back in this example. Why do they get more money, from used sale cuts, that they didn't invest in creating the used game market?

    Doesn't make sense.




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    Have to reiterate that it's a problem all of the publisher's own making. They're now trying to have their cake and eat it. The video game industry model is broken and they need to focus their efforts on fixing it before purging the retailers and enforcing anti-consumer bollocks on the people who grew the industry in the first place. Honestly in our bubble I think it's easy to forget just how much MONEY these companies make. They're no paupers! Any financial trouble they find themselves in is entirely their own fault, gaming has been less effected by the recession than pretty much every other sector.

    If you want a example of a way to help fix the industry, let's look at prices. Why is every (non-indie, retail) game $60? Not every game is created equal so why are they sold as such. This is why the AA games are dead. It might sound backwards, but sell them at a reduced cost, $40. You'll sell more when the iron is hot (I think something like 90% of a games sales is in the first 2 weeks or something like that) and you will probably persuade some people to buy new instead of waiting a couple weeks for a used copy.


    Let me ask those of you who are against used games a question

    Are you against the resale of games entirely or just through a middle party? In a perfect world there'd be no Gamestop taking their chunk of flesh and we could all trade our games amongst ourselves. Now there's a few sites dedicated to this around but not many because it's generally hard to trust people on the internet unless you have a bit of security like on ebay.

    Speaking of which, are you also against people selling their games on ebay too? Sure Ebay take their small cut but it's a lot smaller than a brick and mortar retailer.

    Cos then you're effectively saying that we do not own our games. At all.

  28. Likes jphuff, $Greatness$ likes this post
  29. #25
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    You know regardless of how you look at it being against used games is like saying if you can't afford it full price you shouldn't be gaming. It's a crude way of putting it but that's essentially what it boils down to. Some people are not in financial situations to go out and drop 60 bucks a pop on every game they want. So because the distribution of revenue off games is $#@!ty they should suffer? That is the bad thing about the used game market. They make consumers out to be the ass holes for buying it used. No I didn't watch the video. Mostly just referring to the argument that used games should be banned.




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