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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Really? How much did Uncharted 3 cost to make? How many were sold? And no, my Ford was not sold for 3 or 4 times it's cost to make lol. Anyways...

    They make one car, sell it, have to make another car, sell it. etc. ND, etc., make one game and sell millions for the cost of making one game. The 20 million cost earns 180 million back in this example. Why do they get more money, from used sale cuts, that they didn't invest in creating the used game market?

    Doesn't make sense.
    im in my third year of my BSc in Economics and im sorry to say F34R, that makes no sense

    and its precisely why you can't compare the two business models.

    for starters, the operating margins alone are in two different worlds.

    bottom line, drop the comparison with cars, its going nowhere. FYI cars are sold from the manufacturer at 3 or 4 times the manufacture cost(depending on the company and the model), this is fact

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Have to reiterate that it's a problem all of the publisher's own making. They're now trying to have their cake and eat it. The video game industry model is broken and they need to focus their efforts on fixing it before purging the retailers and enforcing anti-consumer bollocks on the people who grew the industry in the first place. Honestly in our bubble I think it's easy to forget just how much MONEY these companies make. They're no paupers! Any financial trouble they find themselves in is entirely their own fault, gaming has been less effected by the recession than pretty much every other sector.
    keep in mind these guys fund games

    if they have no money, we get no games.

    $#@!ed up reasoning i know, but that's how it is unfortunately. we can only hope the fat bastards at the top actually care to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    If you want a example of a way to help fix the industry, let's look at prices. Why is every (non-indie, retail) game $60? Not every game is created equal so why are they sold as such. This is why the AA games are dead. It might sound backwards, but sell them at a reduced cost, $40. You'll sell more when the iron is hot (I think something like 90% of a games sales is in the first 2 weeks or something like that) and you will probably persuade some people to buy new instead of waiting a couple weeks for a used copy.
    you answered you own question really.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    90% of a games sales is in the first 2 weeks or something like that
    maximising profit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Let me ask those of you who are against used games a question

    Are you against the resale of games entirely or just through a middle party? In a perfect world there'd be no Gamestop taking their chunk of flesh and we could all trade our games amongst ourselves. Now there's a few sites dedicated to this around but not many because it's generally hard to trust people on the internet unless you have a bit of security like on ebay.

    Speaking of which, are you also against people selling their games on ebay too? Sure Ebay take their small cut but it's a lot smaller than a brick and mortar retailer.

    Cos then you're effectively saying that we do not own our games. At all.
    in a perfect world they'd get their asses along and we wouldn't be the innocent bystander receiving all the shots!

    used games aren't inherently bad, its implementation currently is causing issues though.
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 06-01-2013 at 05:19.
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  2. #27
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    Used games market will cease to exist certainly after this generation.

    Game did one over on the UK users of steam and other digital download servicesby not allowing a game called Homefront to be sold digitally throughout UK even though the game is a steamworks game and requires Steam to work properly.
    How $#@!ing dumb is that?

    $#@! retail! Digital downloads for the win.
    Last edited by keefy; 06-01-2013 at 05:31.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post

    you answered you own question really.
    Eh?


    maximising profit.
    And I'd be willing to bet there'd be more profit if they sold A/AA games for $40.

    in a perfect world they'd get their asses along and we wouldn't be the innocent bystander receiving all the shots!

    used games aren't inherently bad, its implementation currently is causing issues though.
    You didn't really answer the question. So to put another way; F34R wants to buy Metro Last Light, so I sell him my copy because I'm done with it. No one else gets a cut. Are you against this?

    They've lost a sale. Buying used from retail is not always a lost sale. But this is, so it's worse?

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    He makes some strong arguments, im not a big used game buyer anyway, but he brought up some things that i haven't considered before.

    I would sure rather publishers and developers, MS and Sony get a boost in profits over a place like GameStop.

    One thing though, i believe these big major gaming stores will probably be gone before long anyway.
    Digital downloads and online shopping is just gone get more popular.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Eh?
    And I'd be willing to bet there'd be more profit if they sold A/AA games for $40.
    would there really? you'd be releasing your product to market at an inferior price. every game on the shelves sit there at $60 and yours is trying to get someones attention at $40?

    its the least risky option to go in at the market price. irrespective of quality or content.

    the market dictates companies decisions, and the market is unfortunately ambivalent when it comes to paying $60 for a mediocre game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    You didn't really answer the question. So to put another way; F34R wants to buy Metro Last Light, so I sell him my copy because I'm done with it. No one else gets a cut. Are you against this?

    They've lost a sale. Buying used from retail is not always a lost sale. But this is, so it's worse?
    you aren't doing it in mass quantities. you wont't sell F34R 4 copies of Metro. yes it's a lost sale, but you are strangely insignificant (as am i) to businesses.

    retailers have a monopoly on the used game market (this is significant). it wouldn't be a market if the quantities paled into insignificance. and as i said above, the market dictates companies decisions.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    would there really? you'd be releasing your product to market at an inferior price. every game on the shelves sit there at $60 and yours is trying to get someones attention at $40?

    its the least risky option to go in at the market price. irrespective of quality or content.

    the market dictates companies decisions, and the market is unfortunately ambivalent when it comes to paying $60 for a mediocre game.
    I do believe it would be economically viable at $40. A & AA games don't sell at $60 anyway, largely I think because people quite rightly weigh them up against AAA games and ask: why would I buy the other one when they cost the same?

    So sure it's risky but you can count on one hand the franchises that are not a risk to bring to market in the first place.


    you aren't doing it in mass quantities. you wont't sell F34R 4 copies of Metro. yes it's a lost sale, but you are strangely insignificant (as am i) to businesses.

    retailers have a monopoly on the used game market (this is significant). it wouldn't be a market if the quantities paled into insignificance. and as i said above, the market dictates companies decisions.
    Aite so let's assume for the sake of discussion this utopian perfect market exists. Many people are trading their games with eachother, as many used games are being sold in this market as in todays non-perfect version. Same rules apply, seller gets all the money, no one else gets a cut, there's no monopoly being had here. But that's an awful lot of lost sales. No longer insignificant

  7. #32
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    I think a lot of people, even TotalBiscuit, are ignoring how poorly a lot of publishers and studios handle their budget and marketing. Yes, used games do remove money from publishers; But we need to remains aware of the expenses and costs developers push to create games when they could have been much more efficient. They attempt to meet these AAA standards (thus mismanaging priority in funds) and it's coming back to hit them.

    As for used games, I feel gamers should be allowed to sell their retail copies. I don't like when we get things like online passes. I understand the excuse for them, but I feel that it's anti-consumer in its execution (a similar example is DRM). These are companies and I think they need to absorb the loss and manage themselves better, not take the expense out on their consumers and fans.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Aite so let's assume for the sake of discussion this utopian perfect market exists. Many people are trading their games with eachother, as many used games are being sold in this market as in todays non-perfect version. Same rules apply, seller gets all the money, no one else gets a cut, there's no monopoly being had here. But that's an awful lot of lost sales. No longer insignificant
    i think the perfect market would be retailer AND publisher getting cash, but i'll indulge

    so the assumption is, games now exist in an open market? you buy your copy and its yours to own and do with as you please?

    as i said to Ixion, Publishers/Developers require a revenue stream to remain afloat. the BEST business model that would fit this market would be episodic content. like the walking dead episodes. naturally, you'd lose sales on the first release, but the intent would be that people became significantly interested to buy subsequent episodes in their own time as soon as possible.
    in this case, devs would be very pleased. they get to work and get paid directly.

    but that is with the intent of keeping all parties happy.

    more likely, Publishers would become the ire of peoples souls and enforce locked content (much like was rumored for the PS4) on discs that would need online activation.

    that latter one sounds very similar to what Xbox One is rumored and also what the PS4 was rumored to be doing doesn't it?

    however, in our real world case its the manufacturers getting iffed with retailers. Consoles are traditionally sold at a loss and subsidized though game sales....full circle?
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 06-01-2013 at 06:23.
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  9. #34
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    This stuff makes me laugh. Like, really, are you serious? All these apologizes for a BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. Take the training wheels off and call it like it is. They're out to fleece the gamers for more money. Period, end of story. No other discussion. "Gamestop sells my games used cheaper, wah wah." Yeah, they sure do. Gamestop also gives me credit for your game. Publishers and Developers have the same opportunity to buy back COD1,2,3 and 4 yet they don't do it. I didn't purchase a license, I purchased a game! Pure and simple.

    Once that disc is in my hands, it belongs to me. I get it, you want to support the Devs. I do as well. You have that one guy who buys the game used, but then after while he has money to buy all that nice DLC the Developers tacted on post-release and buys that. Is he not supporting our beloved Developers? Yeah, I didn't think so. Since we're so hung up on "Supporting the Devs", How about those Devs who gave us the long stroke?

    Look at all those PS3 owners who owned Skyrim and that massacre of a game before it was fixed umteen years later? So now, according to the current version of DRM and Apologist, I should be stuck with this game and suffer through this rushed unfinished product even though I already Supported them buy purchasing it and realizing it was absolute trash? That doesn't make sense if I have a willing corporation like Gamestop, Ebay and other outlets willingly to buy this said game. Some other poor soul may find treasure with my trash. I bought it brand new, Devs are happy. I trade it to Gamestop. They're happy. Poor soul buys it. Everyone wins.

    At the end of the day the problem isn't with me. The problem is with the industry hating on Gamestop. Fine. Direct your attention to Gamestop accordingly and stop trying to give me the long stroke and excuses.The gaming world has been on a boost since the Era of Casual gaming. These folks are eating. I'm sorry the pie isn't as big as they might like it, but don't play the victim. Good games have great sales. I don't see COD, GTA, Madden and other games struggling. All I hear about it record setting sales. Who's missing out? Take it up with your publishing partner if they yanking your chain.

    I try to sympathize with this "Support the Devs" moment, but don't feed me garbage about them not eating while I continued to get rushed product that is flawed and patched to death 50 times over the course of the year or met with "We'll fix it in the next game" all the while selling millions of copies. Or tying it to my profile asking me to buy an online pass for every single gaming member of my household. Kill that noise. Doesn't make sense.

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  11. #35
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    The games industry are not special snowflakes who require us to ignore our right to first sale doctrine in order to protect an extra couple of cents on their shareholder dividend. There's no other industry I can think of that seems to have it's consumers actually believing they should give up their rights to help these companies get richer.

    But hey, lets ignore all that and instead look to reduce consumer rights instead. Let's not discuss the elephant in the room, a business model in dire need of review.

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  13. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    now you're not even trying
    How so? My point is simple. People pay the price tag to own a game; not just experience it.

    Therefore, the creator should get revenue for every person that owns the game. And if the game is worth owning, then more people will own the game (instead of just experiencing it and getting rid of it) and the creator will receive more revenue.
    Last edited by Ixion; 06-01-2013 at 22:17.

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    Cars are not essentials for everyone. For a lot of people they are luxuries and are not needed.

    So after listening to the video essentially if you believe the argument then he legitimizes piracy. If selling used DVDs and CDs is not a valid comparison then he just gave a notch in the belt for the pirates because if the movie industry doesn't have to worry about stores selling used DVDs they should not have a problem with pirates. Both ways see the industry gain $0.

    I don't believe in the slightest that Gamestop has this insane amount of power he speaks about. Devs/Publishers could easily just open up their own store if they are under the thumb of Gamestop. If it is all about exposure it'd be pretty easy to open up their own place. If the devs/publishers don't actually send stock to Gamestop then Gamestop won't actually be around anymore.

    The big problem with his entire argument is he is looking at it from his own eco-system. I've been living overseas for the past 4 years. There are a lot of PSN region problems that makes buying new actually pointless. Why buy AC3 new when the online pass that comes with it won't work anyways because it is the wrong region, or even better with UC3 needing the disc and PSN region to be the same so even buying an online pass is pointless. Also not every country has a Gamestop/EB. They don't have those in Korea. 99% of the gaming stores there are ma&pa stores, with the other 1% being Sony supported from all the ones I've seen.

    If the games cost so much to maintain and create that used game sales are hurting devs and publishers that much then the games are too expensive to make. Companies need to scale back if the bottom line is hampered that much, or raise prices.

    I do agree with him that at some point all games are just going to be digital only, it is inevitable at the rate technology is progressing.

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    I'm with Greatness. If they are so worried about getting revenue off of used games why don't the devs work out a contract with the publishers for a buy back program. Of course the publisher would get more of the money because they are implementing the plan but something is better than nothing. There is always some kind of thought to screw over the consumer to fix the problem instead of fixing the problem from the inside out. Devs are happy and consumers are happy. But no, they would rather $#@! about it and blame the people that but their products and retailers. Guess what. The retailers are in the business of making money just like you guys!

    I still don't understand how the argument is made that it's not like any other industry. It's not like any other industry because the distribution of revenue is so $#@!ty? If they are so worried about it stop trying to put a bandaid on an open wound. It will suffice for a sort while but there will be another problem right down the road.




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  17. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasombra View Post
    Cars are not essentials for everyone. For a lot of people they are luxuries and are not needed.

    So after listening to the video essentially if you believe the argument then he legitimizes piracy. If selling used DVDs and CDs is not a valid comparison then he just gave a notch in the belt for the pirates because if the movie industry doesn't have to worry about stores selling used DVDs they should not have a problem with pirates. Both ways see the industry gain $0.

    I don't believe in the slightest that Gamestop has this insane amount of power he speaks about. Devs/Publishers could easily just open up their own store if they are under the thumb of Gamestop. If it is all about exposure it'd be pretty easy to open up their own place. If the devs/publishers don't actually send stock to Gamestop then Gamestop won't actually be around anymore.

    The big problem with his entire argument is he is looking at it from his own eco-system. I've been living overseas for the past 4 years. There are a lot of PSN region problems that makes buying new actually pointless. Why buy AC3 new when the online pass that comes with it won't work anyways because it is the wrong region, or even better with UC3 needing the disc and PSN region to be the same so even buying an online pass is pointless. Also not every country has a Gamestop/EB. They don't have those in Korea. 99% of the gaming stores there are ma&pa stores, with the other 1% being Sony supported from all the ones I've seen.

    If the games cost so much to maintain and create that used game sales are hurting devs and publishers that much then the games are too expensive to make. Companies need to scale back if the bottom line is hampered that much, or raise prices.

    I do agree with him that at some point all games are just going to be digital only, it is inevitable at the rate technology is progressing.


    Pirates copy games.
    selling a game someone bought new doesnt create an extra copy.

    What he says about GAME is true they pushed their influence around too much because they were (maybe still are) the biggest bricks and mortar retailer for video games in the UK. I posted an example of their complete audacity and bullying tactics a few posts ago.
    Last edited by keefy; 06-01-2013 at 21:43.

  18. #40
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    Just stopping in to say that the obnoxious use of all caps "DESTROYS" in the thread title made me not want to watch the video.

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  20. #41
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    I think it's awfully sweet of so many people to believe that the software industry deserves so much special treatment, although I suspect they might feel differently if they made a product themselves.

    So many are ignoring on simple fact that Cyn brought up first here (from what I can see). The publishers themselves made this mess. They're simply going about things by trying to screw consumers instead of actually addressing the issues they could address. I don't believe that the ratio of people using loaned or used games is any different now than when it was when cartridges cost $80-100 apiece. The bottom line is that companies exist to make money and increase profits. The industry is simply trying to increase their profit margins.

    People bring up that games require maintenance and servers, but that's budgeted into a project when they make a game. Game publishers aren't required to keep servers running or other resources for any length of time, unlike say the car industry that has to make sure parts for a car are available for a certain number of years. Yes, a used game gives them no money, but this could easily be fixed without shafting the consumer. I don't buy used games when a used copy is $5 less than new. The games I buy used usually don't even have online services available anymore. I buy them for around $10-15 and they are games I wouldn't have tried or had no interest in when they were new.

    I think it would be perfectly reasonable to have to pay a fee for online services. The online pass system was about that and ensured that publishers would get some money for those other game players that didn't buy the game new. Yeah, people griped about it, but people don't like change, period. It still was a fair compromise. I wouldn't mind paying a small fee for that just like I don't mind buying DLC that I want. That's my choice. I will NOT pay retail or really close to retail for some used game though.

    The way we've been hearing about things going with the Xbox One and possibly with the PS4, I think will HURT the game market more than anything. Fact is, there are many people who can't afford the games when new. Fact is, a lot of people trade in a few used games for credit so they can afford some new game in the store. If the publisher block that by making people pay $50 or whatever for every new game, those people won't buy or will buy far less. THAT will have a real impact on sales figures.

    I wouldn't mind as much even if they lock games down to my console. There would need to be a provision like with iTunes where I can use multiple devices though. Bottom line, the game industry has allowed the market to go where it is today. There are real and good options they could pursue that would increase their revenue without destroying the current ecosystem and without shafting consumers. Change, no matter how it works out, is often painful and people would have to get used to it. But, when things go completely digital, the change will be vast and we're almost there already, like the PC market pretty much already is.

    I'm waiting to get actual details on this new scheme before I really rant or freak out. There's so much contradiction right now that I'm not convinced that things will even go the way so many are speculating that it will. So I'll be paying a lot of attention to E3 to see what develops. I hope the game industry has enough sense to make changes that will help them but be equitable to the consumers. If not, I fear they could really damage the industry.

    Meanwhile, just don't lose sight of who created this "mess" for publishers in the first place. Also, think of this: the industry keeps talking like they won't be able to continue business, but they ARE making profit and ARE continuing. Thinking that things as they are will spell the death of the gaming industry is naive and is a result of drinking the publisher's kool-aid. What's really happening is that the industry is just trying to find a way to increase their profits. Think about this- even in markets where there can be no piracy and no resale like full digital distribution, prices have still not gone down. Games still sell for $50 or $60. This is because publishers are enjoying making that much more money off of digital distribution, not because of some other retail bogeyman. That just doesn't make any sense, if you think about it. Other software markets are doing the same thing, and they don't have big, bad GameStop to blame. So ask yourself if GameStop having that much power REALLY makes sense given the fact that those other digital markets are doing the same thing in keeping digital prices the same as box prices. No, this is just the publishers taking advantage of a new hardware generation to see how far they can push consumers and push profits up within their market segment. How far they can go depends on us. Hopefully they won't end up pushing too far and killing their golden goose. We'll see.

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  22. #42
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    The used game industry can, indirectly, help devs earn money. There is a large portion of gamers that sells their games; I know that there are plenty of new purchases I wouldn't be able to get if I hadn't sold some games. The used game market is necessary to help support new sales.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasombra View Post
    I do agree with him that at some point all games are just going to be digital only, it is inevitable at the rate technology is progressing.
    Yes, and some form of DRM is going to happen in that situation.
    Sony is making all their new games downloadable and they will be locked to your account or your console in some way.
    DD is just going to become more common place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Pirates copy games.
    selling a game someone bought new doesnt create an extra copy.

    What he says about GAME is true they pushed their influence around too much because they were (maybe still are) the biggest bricks and mortar retailer for video games in the UK. I posted an example of their complete audacity and bullying tactics a few posts ago.
    The devs and publishers have all the power. Why they are not using it and are being 'bullied' is beyond me as they hold the product. No product=No GAME/Gamestop/EB/whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasombra View Post
    The devs and publishers have all the power. Why they are not using it and are being 'bullied' is beyond me as they hold the product. No product=No GAME/Gamestop/EB/whatever.
    Because 'they' is a collective. If one developer tries to utilize their position (whether for good or bad) - yet if it contrast to what the stores want - Game/Gamestop can just say, "Oh, alright. We won't sell your product then." And there goes an entire avenue of sales that could have been.
    Last edited by Nerevar; 06-02-2013 at 09:15.

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  27. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Because 'they' is a collective. If one developer tries to utilize their position (whether for good or bad), yet it contrast to what the stores want, Game/Gamestop can just say, "Oh, alright. We won't sell your product then." And there goes an avenue of sales that could have been.
    The collective should collectively get together and figure out how to stop being bullied then. It is a capitalist world. If they can't come together as a whole to fix this problem then it is a problem they created.

    If I didn't live overseas I'd still have been buying games new, but after my experiences the past couple years now I refuse to buy new except in very rare circumstances. I don't mind waiting a year or even two for a game considering I only get half a game anyways if it comes with any sort of DLC/PSN region specific content/DRM as its locked out for me.

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    Can i just ask, who the f**k is totalbiscuit? Just another nob with a opinion or somebody with actual credibility?

    Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by jj03 View Post
    Can i just ask, who the f**k is totalbiscuit?
    A contrarian douchebag:








    *Adam Boyes works for Sony.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    A contrarian douchebag:








    *Adam Boyes works for Sony.
    Cheers. That total biscuit does come across as a $#@!.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasombra View Post
    The collective should collectively get together and figure out how to stop being bullied then. It is a capitalist world. If they can't come together as a whole to fix this problem then it is a problem they created.
    Pretty sure that's illegal and is called a form of monopoly. I forgot the correct term for it but competitions to get together and form a plan to control is illegal. Because this way a bunch of companies could get together and charge you whatever they want to.

    It would fall under antitrust practices.

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