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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    How so? My point is simple. People pay the price tag to own a game; not just experience it.

    Therefore, the creator should get revenue for every person that owns the game. And if the game is worth owning, then more people will own the game (instead of just experiencing it and getting rid of it) and the creator will receive more revenue.
    http://www.psu.com/a019601/Sony-and-...o-CEO-responds

    the article covers a wide range of reasons for and against. but it basically seems as though companies have found a way to sort that $#@! out
    in what capacity, i don't know. but as i said. Sony and MS get paid per disc sold. not just the devs and publishers.

    used games bypass that revenue stream in its entirety.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Pretty sure that's illegal and is called a form of monopoly. I forgot the correct term for it but competitions to get together and form a plan to control is illegal. Because this way a bunch of companies could get together and charge you whatever they want to.

    It would fall under antitrust practices.
    its called price fixing and companies do it all the time.
    to be exact, the market structure is an oligopoly
    oil companies, for example, they do it all the time. but when you think about it, oil is dirt cheap. the only reason you notice it is because you use it all the time.



    think of the work involved with bringing oil to the masses?
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 06-02-2013 at 11:33.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    He's wrong. Simple as that for me. He likes to be contrary, even antagonistic. It generates views.

    I have also worked in game retail and it's true, they do tell you to push used and push it often. Of course they do, it's the only way they can make profit. But most of the people I ever asked said no thanks (and their eyes said stop wasting my time, don't blame them). The people who regularly buy used don't even use money, they use in-store credit for the games they just traded in. That isn't lost revenue no matter which way you try to spin it.

    Gamestop, GAME etc are not faultless in this, they are not some poor victims. But their greedy attitude towards the used market was a direct result of making peanuts in profit when selling new. My old manager once told me that we made less than 3 profit on every new PS3 sold, back when they were 400
    He lied to you!

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw3d Genius View Post
    He lied to you!
    At Best Buy we made only about $5 on each system. The companies selling the product make very little off the actual system itself. Games, accessories that is where the money is to be made and why employees will shove them down your throats.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuuichi View Post
    At Best Buy we made only about $5 on each system. The companies selling the product make very little off the actual system itself. Games, accessories that is where the money is to be made and why employees will shove them down your throats.
    but wtf do retailers do?

    im not saying they aren't important but c'mon. they stock the game. they didn't pour millions into developing it. millions on R&D. millions on marketing.

    (im curious to know now if they actually market their own special game offers?)

    they essentially pass the thing along.

    their margins should reflect that.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    but wtf do retailers do?

    im not saying they aren't important but c'mon. they stock the game. they didn't pour millions into developing it. millions on R&D. millions on marketing.

    (im curious to know now if they actually market their own special game offers?)

    they essentially pass the thing along.

    their margins should reflect that.
    Not disagreeing with you just saying that systems the retailers do not make much. Games we made about $10 on because a games with my employee discount was about $53 and discount is 10% above cost, so around 47.70 they paid for game and sell it at 59.99. Accessories....yeah don't even get me started how much of a mark up they have especially the off brands.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    http://www.psu.com/a019601/Sony-and-...o-CEO-responds

    the article covers a wide range of reasons for and against. but it basically seems as though companies have found a way to sort that $#@! out
    in what capacity, i don't know. but as i said. Sony and MS get paid per disc sold. not just the devs and publishers.

    used games bypass that revenue stream in its entirety.


    its called price fixing and companies do it all the time.
    to be exact, the market structure is an oligopoly
    oil companies, for example, they do it all the time. but when you think about it, oil is dirt cheap. the only reason you notice it is because you use it all the time.


    think of the work involved with bringing oil to the masses?
    Dirt cheap is relative. But Shell, BP, Exxon Mobil, these are amongst the richest corps in the world. 7 of the top 10 companies by revenue are in oil. They make more profit than every other business sector in the world combined. So struggling to see your point

    Also under $4 for a gallon of Coke?

    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw3d Genius View Post
    He lied to you!
    Don't think so

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuuichi View Post
    At Best Buy we made only about $5 on each system. The companies selling the product make very little off the actual system itself. Games, accessories that is where the money is to be made and why employees will shove them down your throats.
    The margin is just as small on new games. Hence the reason they push used so hard in the first place.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
    Dirt cheap is relative. But Shell, BP, Exxon Mobil, these are amongst the richest corps in the world. 7 of the top 10 companies by revenue are in oil. They make more profit than every other business sector in the world combined. So struggling to see your point
    i won't disagree with you, they are, i simply brought it up as a point for price fixing
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  8. #58
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    So the entire argument is: videogame publishers created a flawed business model and because of that customers have to give up their basic rights to compensate. Right...

    I could nitpick the video's points, but I found this post on neogaf who explains it better than what I could possibly do, so...

    If the secondhand market is not having a major detrimental effect on the primary market, then why would it need to be addressed?

    If it were the case for movies and games, then yes, I'd favor similar measures by music/movie industries to protect themselves against it.

    Well, this is the disconnect I guess. You admit you only hold this view because of the detrimental effects (you think) are impacting the industry. You are asserting that a fundamental aspect of property rights and consumer rights as it has existed since the beginning of trade should be adjusted and recodified on a per-industry basis, not because it's inherently bad or unethical, but just because you think it's a threat to the industry's health. Which means you are essentially arguing for protectionism for corporations--consumers are free to exercise their consumer rights only up to a certain point, but if that free exercise is perceived to threaten the viability of the industry, then their rights must be limited in order to save the industry.

    I don't think I can put into words my disgust at this demeaning display of groveling at the feet of your game developer overlords. Even a die-hard laissez-faire capitalist would not be so subservient, because even a capitalist would accept that sometimes industries die and that's the way the world works. As much as I enjoy games, there is no inherent good in this industry. The ends do not justify the means here; there is nothing that makes the gaming industry inherently worthy of preservation, not to the point that would justify carving out a special exemption for them where used games are somehow magically not OK when they are OK for every other packaged good on the planet. Just because your favored set of content producers couldn't properly adapt does not justify rewriting the rules of what "property ownership" means and fundamentally removing the ability to preserve, inherit, pass on, lend, and share its products.

    The industry does not come first; consumers do. I have no sympathy for an industry that cannot properly stumble its way around a viable secondhand market like every other mature industry in the world. Sometimes your old product just isn't good enough, and the way you solve it is by making a better product, not by forcing consumers to adapt to your archaic and myopic business model with your dying breath. If this industry can't find a way to make money off the primary market -- even with DLC and exclusive pre-order content and HD re-releases and map packs and online passes and annualized sequels and "expanding the audience" and AAA advertising and forced multiplayer -- then, if I may be so blunt, $#@! it. It doesn't deserve our money in the first place. If an entire industry has its head so far up its ass, is so focused on short-term gains, and has embraced such a catastrophically stupid blockbuster business model in the pursuit of a stagnant market of hardcore 18-34 dudebros that it thinks it has no choice but to take away our first-sale rights as its last chance of maybe, finally, creating a sustainable stream of profits, then it can go to hell. It doesn't need your protection, it needs to be taken out back and beaten until it remembers who its real masters are.

    I especially have a hard time having any sympathy because so many of the industry's problems are of its own making. They chose to focus on shaderific HD graphics over long-lasting appeal and gameplay; they chose to focus on linear scripted cinematic B-movie imitations that were only good for one playthrough instead of replayability and open-ended design; they chose to pour so much money and marketing into military porn and fetishized violent shootbang Press A to Awesome titles, exactly the kinds of games that hardcore gamers, the most likely gamers to trade in games quickly were prone to buying and reselling; and perhaps most galling, they chose to give Gamestop loads of exclusive pre-order bonuses while they knew exactly what Gamestop would say to those customers once in the store. They kept making insanely lavish and nonsensical displays of spectacular whizz-bang, despite that being exactly the kind of game most susceptible to trading after one week because there was nothing left to do with it. And now they're discovering that putting so many insanely expensive eggs into one fragile and easily breakable basket is maybe not the most sustainable business model ever.

    So forgive me if I find myself not caring one bit when the industry complains that it's just so hard to sell six million copies of Gears of Medal of Battle of Uncharted Angry Dudes VII in the first week and that's why they need to take away used sales for the entire platform. No, the problem isn't at this end.
    http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php...postcount=1361

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  10. #59
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    They chose to focus on shaderific HD graphics over long-lasting appeal and gameplay; they chose to focus on linear scripted cinematic B-movie imitations that were only good for one playthrough instead of replayability and open-ended design
    This guy acts like making games is some magic formula where all a developer has to do is it use to create games that are long-lasting/gameplay focused?

    Open-ended design does not automatically mean a game will be a 'GOOD' game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    This guy acts like making games is some magic formula where all a developer has to do is it use to create games that are long-lasting/gameplay focused?

    Open-ended design does not automatically mean a game will be a 'GOOD' game.
    Like.

  12. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    This guy acts like making games is some magic formula where all a developer has to do is it use to create games that are long-lasting/gameplay focused?

    Open-ended design does not automatically mean a game will be a 'GOOD' game.
    I'm not going to argue about what defines a lasting game since that's subjective, but I agree with his overall point. Developers create games that customers don't want to keep and they feel they should be rewarded for that? I don't think so.

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    A lot of it has to do with the superficial demands of the newer generations. It's difficult to spend time in storyline or things that pertain to longevity when the graphics are what sell...and technical achievement. Online component.

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    So at this point its clear that this problem is the industry's own making. What I wanna know is what do you guys think is required to climb out of this pit? Steam is by far the best ecosystem out there, xbl and psn can't touch its sales and social connectivity AND its free, so digital only sounds inevitable but is DD viable when we will have 50GB games next gen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    So at this point its clear that this problem is the industry's own making. What I wanna know is what do you guys think is required to climb out of this pit? Steam is by far the best ecosystem out there, xbl and psn can't touch its sales and social connectivity AND its free, so digital only sounds inevitable but is DD viable when we will have 50GB games next gen?
    Cloud.

    I think it's a combination of both the developers and the consumers, is why we're at the point that we are.

  16. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    A lot of it has to do with the superficial demands of the newer generations. It's difficult to spend time in storyline or things that pertain to longevity when the graphics are what sell...and technical achievement. Online component.
    Video games are an odd medium, since they inherently use technology and so there's an expectation to always have the most cutting edge visuals. Other mediums don't have that expectation.

    For example, a 'Drama' film doesn't need any special effects. But a 'Drama' video game (like Heavy Rain)? It needs the latest technology.

    And all movies charge the same prices at the box office, but if you make a video game with retro visuals, it has to be a $10 PSN game.

    This is why the industry is having a budget issue and is looking for whatever revenue it can get. It's unsustainable.

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    Exactly. The thing about a movie is, if it's good then it's worth it. A good game isn't necessarily worth $60 even if it's perceived worth is high. Like I'm sure people would pay lots for Minecraft if they love the game that much...but it's still a cheap game.

    Notice how the devs of angry birds are trying to charge like $30 for the bundle when the game was going for a buck on the phones. There's even a free version. So I guess they're charging you for what you perceive it as. Since they can't charge the phone users that money as they already are exposed to the initial price point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    I'm not going to argue about what defines a lasting game since that's subjective, but I agree with his overall point. Developers create games that customers don't want to keep and they feel they should be rewarded for that? I don't think so.
    I don't think any developer starts a game project thinking they are making a game their customers aren't going to want to keep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    I don't think any developer starts a game project thinking they are making a game their customers aren't going to want to keep.
    It doesn't matter what they want to do. It matters how the product ends up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    It doesn't matter what they want to do. It matters how the product ends up.
    How the product ended up is not something they planned for. It wasn't a deliberate decision by the developers, lol.

    My whole point is that developers aren't in the industry to make games that gamers don't like [on purpose]. I don't know how you can hold that against them.
    Last edited by sainraja; 06-03-2013 at 01:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    How the product ended up is not something they planned for. It wasn't a deliberate decision by the developers, lol.

    My whole point is that developers aren't in the industry to make games that gamers don't like [on purpose]. I don't know how you can hold that against them.
    What is your point? Who cares what their intent is? If they make a bad game, then don't deserve as much money.

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    Publishers/Developers try to make a game (especially high profile ones) that they know they will get the most money out of.

    So yes, in a way it is our own fault (and not ours as enthusiastic gamers but the mainstream dummies) that will gobble up anything that looks "hollywood" and while that's cool and all, they know that an average mainstream gamer doesn't have the wits to go for a long game anyway.

    They have found an equilibrium where everyone is happy. Even us, for the most part.

    But also the development costs have gone up due to advanced tech/actors that are needed to make games and I'm sure many other things we don't hear about.

    I think the real fault is either all of us or none of us, it's only natural to make something that they can make the best bang on...and yes, it's their fault for making it strictly business and not having any passion left.

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    Buying a $#@! game is our own fault, plenty of review out there to stop us wasting our money. Not liking a game doesn't make the game $#@!.
    Last edited by keefy; 06-03-2013 at 10:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Buying a $#@! game is our own fault, plenty of review out there to stop us wasting our money. Not liking a game doesn't make the game $#@!.
    Yeah and reviews for the most part can not be trusted as they opinions. I mean look at IGN it gave Rage 8.5 and that game was a pos. Look at Kotauka it said Dragons Dogma sucked and everyone who played it disagree for the most part.
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    Opinion is different than a $#@!ty broken game all yous are moaning about.

    Lots like FF7, I don't, does that mean its a $#@!ty broken game? NO!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuuichi View Post
    Yeah and reviews for the most part can not be trusted as they opinions. I mean look at IGN it gave Rage 8.5 and that game was a pos. Look at Kotauka it said Dragons Dogma sucked and everyone who played it disagree for the most part.
    Sadly reviews are not as good or as valid as they should be. Technically they are opinions but they should be informed opinions that look at a game as a whole and base it on what it is, not what it should be. I think a lot of the problems with Dragons Dogma with reviewers was they expected a Japanese Skyrim but Skyrim it was not (Thankfully in my opinion), and so their opinions were skewed.

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