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  1. #101
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    ^Sufi, why are you wasting your time on him xD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    So why did they specifically mention that they used PS3 tools? I could see generic PC tools translating to the PS4 well but if you really want to go further into optimization, I reckon it's still different once you use the actual tools. Don't forget that PC tools are likely made to cover all sort of configuration and thus making the tools inefficient to begin with.
    Oh yeah, they will cut the crap they dont need out of the system, but "PS3 tools" doesn't necessarily mean, running on the PS3. Just means they were developed with the PS3 in mind.


    So that's good news then, right?
    Yes
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Oh yeah, they will cut the crap they dont need out of the system, but "PS3 tools" doesn't necessarily mean, running on the PS3. Just means they were developed with the PS3 in mind.
    How is that any better lol.

    @Kung. Believe... (sounded funny in my head)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    How is that any better lol.

    @Kung. Believe... (sounded funny in my head)
    Well, look at it this way, it far easier to retool x86 code to Ps4, than it is to retool SPU code and retool it. All thought that wouldn't probably be that hard either using compute.
    Either way, I'm sure devs are loving the x86 environment they get to play in now.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

  6. #105
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    So now QD has 7-8 gddr5 to play with we should see a game that actually looks quite a good bit better than this then in a couple of years?

  7. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw3d Genius View Post
    So now QD has 7-8 gddr5 to play with we should see a game that actually looks quite a good bit better than this then in a couple of years?
    I'm sure the actual game they make will look better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    This was only because the original Heavy Rain tech demo in 2006 could not make use of the Cell processor like a late 2009 game. The PS4 has no impossibly difficult processor with secret hidden potential and difficult split RAM this time around.
    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    You are forgetting that it was only achievable because the original tech demo did not use the Cell BE, which is why drawing a direct correlation to the PS4 and Dark Sorcerer is faulty.
    You keep bringing this up and fail to realize that this is exactly what I have been talking about. Software continues to improve with time regardless of platform and regardless if there is Cell in the console.

    5 years from now we will say that in 2013 demo QD didn't use such and such techniques on the 8 CPU cores and didn't utilize the GPU as efficiently as it could have.

    "2006 demo didn't use cell" is no excuse because no game at the time did.

  9. #108
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    He thinks that just because it's PC architecture the developers will know how to take 100% advantage of the hardware from day 1, which is as far away from the truth as u can get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Right and I want to think that they won't get to the fidelity of this demo but I also know that they surpassed their previous demos and this one was very unoptimized and not nearly using the full RAM.

    I don't know what to expect but I'm not going to make any sharp judgement yet. That's why I'm going to play safe and say that it is possible, eventually, that they may get close to this fidelity, maybe not exact in character models but environment at least. Overall they will impress us enough that we won't come back to this years later and say that they never came close because they've done that before.
    Heh. I agree with most everyone else on here as well. I too, Sufi, thought there was NO WAY QD would match what they did with that casting video and I remember how aghast I was when I got my hands on Heavy Rain. True, that's a different sort of game and I don't expect the next GTA on the PS4 to look like QD's stuff. QD games are a different sort of beast. More an interactive story and experience than the "traditional" type video games. A lot of people don't like them because of that (there's already tons of criticism coming against Beyond: Two Souls) but I like them. I LIKE a "non-traditional" game experience now and again and I think those QD games have entertainment value. They're just different from GTA and Killzone and the others.

    So yeah, I don't expect Killzone 5 to look like that QD demo either, but I think a lot of people will be surprised at just how much these games improve over the current PS3 stuff. I'm seeing on tons of forums where people seem to be discounting the difference between 1080p and 720p. I think it's because they're thinking of the difference as being 1080 to 720 and not factoring in the actual difference. The reality is that 1080p is over double the pixels of 720p. It's a difference of over 1 million pixels being displayed and rendered on screen. That's NOT a difference to sneeze at. I remember the first PS3 titles being shown were impressive but people were saying they weren't THAT much better than the OG Xbox at the time. That quickly changed within a year though and obviously this gen's graphics WERE much better than the one before it. I think right now because of the architectures being made more accessible, we're seeing a bigger jump up front, but there will still be room for devs to grow and improve.

    I personally am really hoping that most games for example can be both 1080p AND 60fps, but I expect that especially early on, we're likely to mostly see stuff that's "just" 30fps and 1080p. Honestly, for most game types I think 30fps is probably as high as they need to go anyway. I'm just hoping that the systems ARE truly capable of doing just about anything at 60fps as well if the developers choose. I'm also REALLY excited to see what Quantic Dream can do with the PS4! I wish it was November already! (or September if THAT rumor about the PS4's availability is true).

    One more thing on this huge post. Check out MGS4 again if you want to see some impressive graphics. Maybe it's just me, but that game STILL looks so good to me. Your being able to do things inside the cut scenes themselves is impressive as hell to me as well. That game was the first that made me just blown away on the PS3 and I still think it looks probably just as good as any other 3rd person type game I've played.

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  12. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by KungMartin90 View Post
    He thinks that just because it's PC architecture the developers will know how to take 100% advantage of the hardware from day 1, which is as far away from the truth as u can get.
    Sure, I think we ARE seeing bigger gains up front due to the architecture being easier to deal with but even so, all (or most, anyway) of the demos we're seeing now are running on code that's already months behind what the devs have right now. That's what they do for demos and shows like E3 and why the stuff they show at the NEXT show (TGS?) will be leaps ahead. Also, being months behind these devs were working on kits, for the PS4 at least, that had only 4GB RAM instead of 8. So we'll see differences based on that. Naturally, there will still be some things to be figured out over the next few years and even if that weren't true it's just a fact of software development that people are smart and figure out new tricks and algorithms to use that make things more efficient and more "sparkly" graphics wise as well. After all, I can't imagine that 6 years ago anyone truly believed that we'd see something like "the Last of Us" actually running and looking the way it does on the PS3.

    The architectures are making things vastly simpler for developers this time around, but still, these are consoles. There will be innovations as the developers learn ways to do things on the consoles that just aren't possible on a PC and we'll see those benefits as gamers. That's part of what owning consoles is all about.

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  14. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Well, look at it this way, it far easier to retool x86 code to Ps4, than it is to retool SPU code and retool it. All thought that wouldn't probably be that hard either using compute.
    Either way, I'm sure devs are loving the x86 environment they get to play in now.
    So why not use actual PC tools to create everything and not the PS3 tools? It would make more sense as PS4 is way closer to x86 than PS3 is. I just feel like there's more to it if they felt the need to keep their PS3 tools...maybe they already had a lot of techniques mastered that they didn't on the x86. Don't know, but I do think that it will get better once they have everything right.

    Although x86 is closest to PS4, I think we're going to see some really awesome stuff that we didn't see on x86 before, primarily because of all the restrictions imposed due to the PC's ecosystem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaw3d Genius View Post
    So now QD has 7-8 gddr5 to play with we should see a game that actually looks quite a good bit better than this then in a couple of years?
    Probably not better than the demo but they will definitely show us a better tech demo later on. I do think that they will likely come close to this demo though, I can't say for sure...I honestly hope they can impress us more without actually making it this detailed (tech demo) and I think that's definitely possible but this level of detail? I'd like not to think it's possible yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by KungMartin90 View Post
    He thinks that just because it's PC architecture the developers will know how to take 100% advantage of the hardware from day 1, which is as far away from the truth as u can get.
    Any hardware will not be fully utilized day 1...no one wants to either. Also, you can "claim" that you did because you just put everything that is using up all the resources, which is really just semantics, it's not really true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KungMartin90 View Post
    He thinks that just because it's PC architecture the developers will know how to take 100% advantage of the hardware from day 1, which is as far away from the truth as u can get.
    You get a better "start", but nobody's ever had so many cores to play with, it will take a while to we see them fully utilized for sure.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

  16. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    So why not use actual PC tools to create everything and not the PS3 tools? It would make more sense as PS4 is way closer to x86 than PS3 is. I just feel like there's more to it if they felt the need to keep their PS3 tools...maybe they already had a lot of techniques mastered that they didn't on the x86. Don't know, but I do think that it will get better once they have everything right.

    Although x86 is closest to PS4, I think we're going to see some really awesome stuff that we didn't see on x86 before, primarily because of all the restrictions imposed due to the PC's ecosystem.
    Probably not better than the demo but they will definitely show us a better tech demo later on. I do think that they will likely come close to this demo though, I can't say for sure...I honestly hope they can impress us more without actually making it this detailed (tech demo) and I think that's definitely possible but this level of detail? I'd like not to think it's possible yet.
    PS3 tools allow them to use much MUCH lower level APIs than DX or OpenGL called PSGl (maybe got the name wrong) so that allows them to squeeze more power out of the hardware. Just a wild guess.

    It may very well be the familiarity of the tools aswell

  17. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    You get a better "start", but nobody's ever had so many cores to play with, it will take a while to we see them fully utilized for sure.
    Do you really feel that CPU is going to bring any change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Do you really feel that CPU is going to bring any change?
    Yes.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

  19. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yes.
    Physics? AI?

  20. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Physics? AI?
    I'll chime in that as far as I'm aware, the basic core of the game programs along with things like AI (physics gets primarily offloaded to the GPU I believe) should show us a difference this generation as well. I'm a bit uncertain about what Mark Cerny keeps talking about as in using the GPU compute units for compute tasks rather than graphics. I'm not a big game programmer so I don't know what advantage there is to be had there. I would just say that the multi-cores in the CPU will allow for faster and more efficient execution of even more ambitious game applications. A game might be split up so that portions of it are running on separate core's or groups of cores. That would allow them to be independent of each other and have less of a detrimental effect on performance. I'm really curious about this using the GPU as compute units though. I haven't been able to wrap my head around what that means just yet but it's apparently one of the reasons Sony went for the more powerful GPU that had more of these compute units available. Other than the fact that they could opt for a bigger GPU as well because they didn't need to allow for something like MS had with the ESRAM. Anyone know how to explain the whole "using GPU for compute tasks" aspect?

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    Interesting. I'd like to know as well. Also, I didn't know GPUs also took care of the physics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Interesting. I'd like to know as well. Also, I didn't know GPUs also took care of the physics.
    nvidia physx bro

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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    nvidia physx bro
    But I always just thought that it was specifically a physics card...like a CPU variant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    But I always just thought that it was specifically a physics card...like a CPU variant.
    no that's not how it works. Physx works with any nvida GPU since I think gtx400 series (it cuts your fps by half though). I might be wrong but I think its the GPGPU capabilities of the cards that allow them to do that (next gen consoles have GPGPUs).

    CPU based physics are apparently VERY slow compared to something like physx (dunno if that's just nvidia PR talk or not)

  25. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    no that's not how it works. Physx works with any nvida GPU since I think gtx400 series (it cuts your fps by half though). I might be wrong but I think its the GPGPU capabilities of the cards that allow them to do that (next gen consoles have GPGPUs).

    CPU based physics are apparently VERY slow compared to something like physx (dunno if that's just nvidia PR talk or not)
    indeed.

    to add to that, the GPU is a parallel processor meaning it can do many things at one time quite slowly. the CPU is a serial processor so it can do one thing at a time but very fast.
    the benefit this has for physics is that a GPU can calculate many different particles in parallel within the scene. the cpu would update each particle in sequence (which is VERY slow).

    i heard a great analogy about the difference a while ago and it goes like this:
    take a novel. if you ask the GPU and CPU to find a specific phrase within it's pages they would search for it like this. the CPU would start at the very first word and go through every word in sequence from there on. the GPU on the other hand will separate the book into its individual pages and go through every page at the same time.

    PS4 has compute units dedicated to doing more general tasks like physics calculations. i think it was DF who did the article (??) saying that even with the units being used for their intended purpose, the PS4 is still the strongest console out by 15% (??)
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 06-25-2013 at 05:14.
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  26. #123
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    Interesting information indeed. Never knew that physics was GPU-bound lol. You'd think otherwise right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Interesting information indeed. Never knew that physics was GPU-bound lol. You'd think otherwise right!
    GPU is more visual physics like cloth, water, particles etc

    the actual game world physics is still CPU bound if i understand correctly. things like hit detection, collision detection etc
    what can be moved (and calculated) on the GPU i don't actually know. but it justifies the decision to go APU this gen.

    what i can't wait to see is how devs use the CPU cores! most high end games use 4 cores, but not very effectively. i'd like to see games running across all available cores at 100%

    I fully expect story driven games to look like this at some point in the generation.

    EDIT:
    and the RAM! if you force (on PC) Skyrim to use more than 4GB (don't know exact number) of RAM it crashes instantly.

    CPU cores and RAM are obvious areas to exploit
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 06-25-2013 at 05:48.
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    Quote Originally Posted by itachi73378 View Post
    You keep bringing this up and fail to realize that this is exactly what I have been talking about. Software continues to improve with time regardless of platform and regardless if there is Cell in the console.

    5 years from now we will say that in 2013 demo QD didn't use such and such techniques on the 8 CPU cores and didn't utilize the GPU as efficiently as it could have.

    "2006 demo didn't use cell" is no excuse because no game at the time did.
    Maxing out the Cell processor and maxing out the GPU are two completely different things. With a GPU, at all times without any effort on your part, the program utilizes all of the GPU cores. But with the Cell, it takes diligent work to even get graphics running on 1 SPE of the 7 available. When the Cell is actually utilized, it easily doubles the processing power.

    It's not that difficult to understand. Your comparison is completely faulty. Your comparison would only be relevant if the Dark Sorcerer demo was only running on 6 compute units out of 12 on-board the GPU and later then have a retail game released running on all 12 units. But anyways, it looks like I'm wasting my time explaining any of this for you. So I won't correct you any further on this matter.

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