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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutButterMunky View Post
    It has to be the best what? Their games are pretty average to me, despite having insane graphics.
    Two was injecting a little sarcasm there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by radgamer420 View Post
    Two was injecting a little sarcasm there.
    Ah, I see. Lol.
    "The biggest adversary in our life is ourselves. We are what we are, in a sense, because of the dominating thoughts we allow to gather in our head. All concepts of self-improvement, all actions and paths we take, relate solely to our abstract image of ourselves. Life is limited only by how we really see ourselves and feel about our being. A great deal of pure self-knowledge and inner understanding allows us to lay an all-important foundation for the structure of our life from which we can perceive and take the right avenues.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    No the GPU has two independant bus's, one to DDR3, one to the ESRAM.
    BY contrast, the PS4 has a 2 very small bus's between the CPU and GPU, and one main memory buss
    Ah ok I see now. I was confused at first because busses don't read and write at the same time.

    So the the upper end bandwidth they are talking about is with read/write split between memory pools (DDR3 and esRAM)
    Yeah that would bump the effective bandwidth up considerably to just about maxing DDR3 speeds. Neat trick.

  4. #154
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DrJay24

    I'm interested in who gave this info to DF, why they leaked it and why Leadbetter became a stenographer.

    In a subsequent twitter exchanges ( don't know who is writing for DF ):

    Quote:
    Digital Foundry ‏@digitalfoundry 29 Jun
    Xbox One ESRAM peak bandwidth is still 102.4GB/s on pure reads or writes, so I assume 128 byte x 800MHz calculation still holds true.

    Michael Coleman ‏@MichaelMikado 29 Jun
    @digitalfoundry r u saying only 88% of the memory can read/write simultaneously? Please explain how that's technically possible? What part??

    @MichaelMikado no that's not what it says, did you read the article?

    and

    Quote:
    Digital Foundry ‏@digitalfoundry
    Xbox One ESRAM peak bandwidth is still 102.4GB/s on pure reads or writes, so I assume 128 byte x 800MHz calculation still holds true.

    Ali ‏@phosphor112 29 Jun
    @digitalfoundry Where does the 88% come from? The ~133GB/s is the "realistic" BW of the chip, so how do they come up with that 88%?

    Digital Foundry ‏@digitalfoundry 23h
    @phosphor112 good question, MS didn't go into depth on that one

    It seems that DF "knows" that 88% doesn't mean that simultaneous read/writes are happening 88% of the time but the article states that simultaneous read/writes are occurring.

    Quote:
    Xbox One processor is considerably more capable than Microsoft envisaged during pre-production of the console, with data throughput levels up to 88 per cent higher in the final hardware.

    So the 88% is a combination of "simultaneous" read/writes and some other mechanism.

    DF also says that that it doesn't know where that 88% number comes from.

    Seems to me either their "trusted sources" don't know what they are talking about or the MS representative doesn't, either way DF doesn't seem to care.


    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=4289


  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I cant figure out where they get this so called extra boost from either.
    Its not like there is downtime on the ESRAM, it's zero latency.

    Clock increase would do it, widend the buss would do it. Neither seems likely.

    Did I mention my distrust of these technical by Eurogamer ?

    Maybe a "acknowledge buss" that runs the other way, and they simply sent data down it?


    Ohh Snap!.

    They are using the falling edge of the clock cycle? A-la DDR?
    That would give you these sorts of numbers I'm pretty sure.

    That's something you could do, and would rely entirely on the integrity of the Esram (i.e. you would be able to test if post build and implement it if you found you structure could handle it).
    Last edited by mynd; 07-01-2013 at 01:02.

  6. #156
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    I like Mynd's rundowns of tech. I've never touched anything that but PC so I can't say too much on Microsoft's embedded RAM, but it's nice to have Mynd the common sense rundown of the tech but in a technical and bad ass way.

  7. #157
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    Honestly I think Eurogamer\DF normally does a smashing job, in this case though they were handed a 'hard' number by a trusted source without any real explanation or context..

    I think actual clarification to this whole thing will be forth coming in the coming weeks.


  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Honestly I think Eurogamer\DF normally does a smashing job, in this case though they were handed a 'hard' number by a trusted source without any real explanation or context..

    I think actual clarification to this whole thing will be forth coming in the coming weeks.
    They do a good job of frame analysis etc, but when it comes to the actual techno babel, they largely are clueless.

    Take his 800mb for render targets in the Killzone demo comment.
    That doesn't mean all 800mb are rendered ever frame, just that things like cube maps have to be well defined in memory space.

    But yes, "extra holes in memory" is vague. Honestly, its I am sure its to be the down cycle on the clock pulse, and finding ways of using this, just like DDR does.

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    Will there be a difference in GRAPHICAL FIDELITY/CONTENT between the PS4 and the Xbox One in multiplatform games such as COD or battlefield? This is what im truly concerned about...please provide an unbiased comprehensive answer. thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    You lost me, but Ill try and explain.

    The Framebuffer is the only guaranteed piece of of memory that you will access on your GPU.

    Textures, model data etc, will change either frame to frame, or over time.

    In any one given scene you will "draw" you models or textures once per frame (yes you can instance to get multiple model of the same model if you want), but you only access it once.

    So in a GPU commands you will do this.

    Get model data 1
    Texture data 1
    Draw
    Get model data 2
    Texture data 2
    Draw...etc etc




    So in memory terms it looks like this.

    GDDR READ model data 1
    GDDR READ Texture data 1
    Draw
    GDDR WRITE Framebuffer
    GDDR READ model data 1
    GDDR READTexture data 1
    Draw
    GDDR WRITE Framebuffer


    So we have...

    Read Address 1, Read Address 2, Write Address 3
    Read Address 4, Read Address 5, Write Address 3
    Read Address 6, Read Address 7, Write Address 3

    Notice Address 3 is in every line, its the framebuffer (what get displayed on screen).

    But it gets even worse because we often do a "compare" in depth data to make sure we aren't drawing something that's actually behind something already on screen.

    So a real memory access is closer to this...

    Read Address 1, Read Address 2, Read Address 3, if pass Write Address 3
    Read Address 4, Read Address 5, Read Address 3,if pass Write Address 3
    Read Address 6, Read Address 7, Read Address 3,if pass Write Address 3

    Fun times eh, we have Read, read, read, write repeated over and over agian till our final picture is "created". One frame.

    Every time we write to our frame, we also do a little thing called latency.
    We issue a command "hey we want to read, or we want to write".

    The GPU has to issue that command and WAIT for the Ram to return an address data.

    Thats usually a cycle or two of "waiting" where it stalls the GPU pipeline.

    Now, throw in to that mix a second bus, that requires no latency.


    Take your "write" and place it there.

    What do you get now?

    GDDR READ model data 1
    GDDR READ Texture data 1
    Draw
    ESRAM WRITE Framebuffer
    GDDR READ model data 1
    GDDR READTexture data 1
    Draw
    ESRAM WRITE Framebuffer

    The effect on Main memory and the GPU memory controller for it is this...

    READ, READ,READ,READ,READ,READ.

    On the ESRAM-> WRITE, WRITE, WRITE

    You also do not have a wait state on the memory.

    In short you can get close to you maximum read speeds.

    Compare that to a read/write/wait effect:

    176gb/s could very wildly as a it will depend on how main write and how many read states you put in place.

    In some cases for example where you read/writing it could be less that the speed of the DDR3.

  10. #160
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    I know what you're trying to say. One will definitely show improvement but you have to understand that both technologies are a moving target so when One will start to show improvement, so will the PS4 and due to the architecture, PS4 will be there sooner.

    This generation, 360 eventually was taken over because it was just not as powerful but it showed its potential much earlier which kept the PS3 aside for a good amount of time.

    Next generation, the PS4 couldn't be more simple and One, while not as complicate as the PS3 or even the 360, is still more complicated than the PS4 so you have two things going against you, 1) Less power 2) More complexity.

    Theoretically it should never be able to either par with the PS4 or surpass it at any point. I can only see it on par in the beginning. Definitely not surpassing it...not unless they took a game developed specifically for the One and then roughly ported it over to the PS4.

    Not to mention, Sony has always had first party developers that work on what the console can do, not sure if MS will change their ways from this generation.
    What you say about the Xbox One makes sense if the developers were starting from scratch (regarding complexity.) But they are not.

    They are not going to forget the techniques/methods they used in this generation and can easily use the knowledge they have now as stepping stones.

    You can't use the current gen as basis to predict what will/will not happen next gen. PS3 used something that was very different from it's competitor. Things aren't 1-to-1 when you compare the current gen to the upcoming one.

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    Can anyone please tell me if the average gamer will be able to successfully distinguish between the superior graphical performance between the Xbox and the ps4 on multiplat games? If so, what degree ? This is a crucial factor in deciding which to purchase. WILL THERE BE A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE IN GRAPHICAL FIDELITY

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraphrases View Post
    Will there be a difference in GRAPHICAL FIDELITY/CONTENT between the PS4 and the Xbox One in multiplatform games such as COD or battlefield? This is what im truly concerned about...please provide an unbiased comprehensive answer. thanks
    No difference, engines are designed to implement features on a base set.
    Minor if any lets say that at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    Oh Joy, I never said it was better, just making the best use of what it's got. Its more "efficient" at what has got to play with.
    Better? Thats pie in the sky stuff.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraphrases View Post
    Can anyone please tell me if the average gamer will be able to successfully distinguish between the superior graphical performance between the Xbox and the ps4 on multiplat games? If so, what degree ? This is a crucial factor in deciding which to purchase. WILL THERE BE A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE IN GRAPHICAL FIDELITY
    Nobody can tell you that at this point. The consoles need to be released and the games can't be compared until they are finished. I don't think there will a drastic difference... we'll just have to wait and see.
    "The biggest adversary in our life is ourselves. We are what we are, in a sense, because of the dominating thoughts we allow to gather in our head. All concepts of self-improvement, all actions and paths we take, relate solely to our abstract image of ourselves. Life is limited only by how we really see ourselves and feel about our being. A great deal of pure self-knowledge and inner understanding allows us to lay an all-important foundation for the structure of our life from which we can perceive and take the right avenues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    No difference, engines are designed to implement features on a base set.
    Minor if any lets say that at least.
    Thanks for replying, I deem you as a reputable tech wiz.
    I've spent multiple hours on NEOgaf and according to many of the users on that site, who claim to be knowledgeable within the realms of tech, have stated the PS4's 1.82 teraflops of computing power compared to the inferior Xbox's 1.21 tFlops will render a noticeable difference EVEN on multiplat games. As you are aware, that is a 50% increase in GPU power , so if you claim that there will not be a difference...then please edify me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraphrases View Post
    Thanks for replying, I deem you as a reputable tech wiz.
    I've spent multiple hours on NEOgaf and according to many of the users on that site, who claim to be knowledgeable within the realms of tech, have stated the PS4's 1.82 teraflops of computing power compared to the inferior Xbox's 1.21 tFlops will render a noticeable difference EVEN on multiplat games. As you are aware, that is a 50% increase in GPU power , so if you claim that there will not be a difference...then please edify me.
    Again... we'll just need to wait and see. I think it's too early even for knowledgable folks to predict the outcome of what developers are able to do with the Xbox One and PS4 hardware. Fortunately for developers, especially ones developing multiplat games... the One and PS4 are both based on x86 architecture... so there will certainly be less headaches developing for both systems this time around.
    "The biggest adversary in our life is ourselves. We are what we are, in a sense, because of the dominating thoughts we allow to gather in our head. All concepts of self-improvement, all actions and paths we take, relate solely to our abstract image of ourselves. Life is limited only by how we really see ourselves and feel about our being. A great deal of pure self-knowledge and inner understanding allows us to lay an all-important foundation for the structure of our life from which we can perceive and take the right avenues.

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yungstar 2006 View Post
    lol
    Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
    lol
    Quote Originally Posted by Yungstar 2006 View Post
    lol....
    Probably along the lines of "we are being paid lots to talk about the game and give some exclusive content to PS4, so we better not mention that ONE version performs better".
    Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    What you say about the Xbox One makes sense if the developers were starting from scratch (regarding complexity.) But they are not.

    They are not going to forget the techniques/methods they used in this generation and can easily use the knowledge they have now as stepping stones.

    You can't use the current gen as basis to predict what will/will not happen next gen. PS3 used something that was very different from it's competitor. Things aren't 1-to-1 when you compare the current gen to the upcoming one.
    Oh no I understand that part. But the problem isn't that they "know" how to work with it or not. The problem is that in any case, it's going to be more development time/effort/skill. In fact, if it's a smaller developer, it's going to be worse. While One is way more efficient than any other console ever made, PS4 just edges it by a good amount.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paraphrases View Post
    Can anyone please tell me if the average gamer will be able to successfully distinguish between the superior graphical performance between the Xbox and the ps4 on multiplat games? If so, what degree ? This is a crucial factor in deciding which to purchase. WILL THERE BE A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE IN GRAPHICAL FIDELITY
    We don't know yet. There will be a difference but it's going to vary from little to at least a medium amount, theoretically. and we will see a bigger difference as we progress into the generation.

    Reason being that unlike last time, PS4 is not going to be more difficult to develop for, in fact, it will be easier than the Xbox.
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    No difference, engines are designed to implement features on a base set.
    Minor if any lets say that at least.
    Don't listen to this guy, he lets his bias take over him.

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    In additionally, I must prompt another relevant question. Due to PS4's composed unified system of GDDR5 Ram, will the ps4 be EASIER to develop upon as others have also stated. Given the Xbox One employs ESRAM in its configuration, will this complicate things..and it certainly poses more issues than having a unified memory system as ps4 has chosen , right? Please correct me if I am wrong

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraphrases View Post
    Thanks for replying, I deem you as a reputable tech wiz.
    I've spent multiple hours on NEOgaf and according to many of the users on that site, who claim to be knowledgeable within the realms of tech, have stated the PS4's 1.82 teraflops of computing power compared to the inferior Xbox's 1.21 tFlops will render a noticeable difference EVEN on multiplat games. As you are aware, that is a 50% increase in GPU power , so if you claim that there will not be a difference...then please edify me.
    Firslty, the tearflop argument will help out in "compute" of that there is no doubt. If it will help with shaders..mmm depends on the shader, a lot of shaders are designed for very specific functions, and will be ported across form engine to engine.

    Will they bother tweaking a specific pixel shader to allow for the extra grunt? Up to devs, but by in large mess with them to much and you going to break you engine, in terms of rendering what when and why.

    GPU performance, is a black box in over all engine terms.

    You require x and y to result in z. How you get there inside the black box, that's what individual platform engineers will have to find, the best way of getting there. If they get to a point where they get there on both systems, they will be happy. Will they go looking for optimization, yes. Will they exceed their mandate on a particular feature set?

    i.e. Engine development wanted z but I can also give them z and some other stuff?
    Generally that will be noted and re-used in the next iteration of the engine. But it will unlikely to be implemented this time round.

  20. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Firslty, the tearflop argument will help out in "compute" of that there is no doubt. If it will help with shaders..mmm depends on the shader, a lot of shaders are designed for very specific functions, and will be ported acorss form engine to engine.

    Will they bother tweaking a specific pixel shader to allow for the extra grunt? Up to devs, but by in large mess with them to much and you going to break you engine, in terms of rendering what when and why.

    GPU performance, is a black box in over all engine terms.

    You require x and y to result in z. How you get there inside the black box, thats what individual platform engineers will have to find, the best way of getting there. If they get to a point where they get there on both systems, they will be happy. Will they go looking for optimisaiton, yes. Will they exceed their mandate on a particular feture set?

    i.e. Engine development wanted z but I can also give them z and some other stuff?
    Generally that will be noted and re-used in the next iteration of the engine. But it will unlikely to be implemented this time round.
    Got in Paraphrases? lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Paraphrases View Post
    In additionally, I must prompt another relevant question. Due to PS4's composed unified system of GDDR5 Ram, will the ps4 be EASIER to develop upon as others have also stated. Given the Xbox One employs ESRAM in its configuration, will this complicate things..and it certainly poses more issues than having a unified memory system as ps4 has chosen , right? Please correct me if I am wrong
    They both have unified RAM but Xbox will rely on ESRAM to get stuff done...even with the ESRAM it's not going to outdo the PS4 in power and not in ease of development either.

    All I'm saying is that you're probably never going to see a game on the PS4 that will underperform more than the Xbox One version. Mathematically, that's the most logical conclusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    lol

    lol


    Oh no I understand that part. But the problem isn't that they "know" how to work with it or not. The problem is that in any case, it's going to be more development time/effort/skill. In fact, if it's a smaller developer, it's going to be worse. While One is way more efficient than any other console ever made, PS4 just edges it by a good amount.

    We don't know yet. There will be a difference but it's going to vary from little to at least a medium amount, theoretically. and we will see a bigger difference as we progress into the generation.

    Reason being that unlike last time, PS4 is not going to be more difficult to develop for, in fact, it will be easier than the Xbox.
    Don't listen to this guy, he lets his bias take over him.

    Can the biases please be discarded? I simply am striving to attain the truth and understand the key differences within these two systems. If there is a noticeable difference in graphical fidelity, that is certainly enough for me to sway towards the PS4. However, I have been informed countless times that developers work towards the lowest common denominator (in this case, the Xbox), which will negate any visual differences on multi plat games. I only wish that any technical wiz can convey the truth to help me make a more informed decision.

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraphrases View Post
    Can the biases please be discarded? I simply am striving to attain the truth and understand the key differences within these two systems. If there is a noticeable difference in graphical fidelity, that is certainly enough for me to sway towards the PS4. However, I have been informed countless times that developers work towards the lowest common denominator (in this case, the Xbox), which will negate any visual differences on multi plat games. I only wish that any technical wiz can convey the truth to help me make a more informed decision.
    You don't need a tech wiz to inform you anything. It's anyone game.

    I'm not being biased here. If so, you can at least tell me where.

    All I'm saying is that these games are going to be scalable. There will definitely be some games where the developer will choose not to push the consoles to the max (especially if there's no PC version) and that's why I mentioned the word "vary". The results are going to vary.

    If all developers tried to make a title that was extremely ambitious, you're going to see the One version struggle more.

    Otherwise, they should have similar results, maybe slight differences. You're probably never going to see the One version being better than the PS4 version overall in any case. It would have to be a very special sort of circumstance to do this...likely a fault of the developers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraphrases View Post
    In additionally, I must prompt another relevant question. Due to PS4's composed unified system of GDDR5 Ram, will the ps4 be EASIER to develop upon as others have also stated. Given the Xbox One employs ESRAM in its configuration, will this complicate things..and it certainly poses more issues than having a unified memory system as ps4 has chosen , right? Please correct me if I am wrong
    PS4=Way more PC like, and straightforward, you don't really need to go looking for optimizations unless you somehow need them.

    Xbox One=More like a supercharge 360 in terms of having access to that edram, which also makes it more complicated.

    In all honesty, devs will try options on the One, run them through performance porfilers, and decide which one does the best (in terms of esram/ddr3 targets). Extra steps to profiling performance, but I dare say as time rolls on , they will find things that work , things that don't work and things to avoid at all costs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Firslty, the tearflop argument will help out in "compute" of that there is no doubt. If it will help with shaders..mmm depends on the shader, a lot of shaders are designed for very specific functions, and will be ported across form engine to engine.

    Will they bother tweaking a specific pixel shader to allow for the extra grunt? Up to devs, but by in large mess with them to much and you going to break you engine, in terms of rendering what when and why.

    GPU performance, is a black box in over all engine terms.

    You require x and y to result in z. How you get there inside the black box, that's what individual platform engineers will have to find, the best way of getting there. If they get to a point where they get there on both systems, they will be happy. Will they go looking for optimization, yes. Will they exceed their mandate on a particular feature set?

    i.e. Engine development wanted z but I can also give them z and some other stuff?
    Generally that will be noted and re-used in the next iteration of the engine. But it will unlikely to be implemented this time round.
    The x, y and z analogies have left me in complete disarray.

    It is a fact that GDDR5 provides more bandwidth as well as higher speed which translates into augmented graphics, correct?

    If so, why did Microsoft opt to employ the ddr3, inferior, ram selection? Will the esRAM work to diminish the bandwidth as the new articles have acclaimed, or will it not?

    As far as I'm concerned, the 192 GB/s bandwidth is a theoretical calculation while the realistic bandwidth speed will be projected at 133 GB/s. If this is true, the ps4's GDDR5 consistent, unified memory system will still possess a 176 GB/s bandwidth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paraphrases View Post
    The x, y and z analogies have left me in complete disarray.

    It is a fact that GDDR5 provides more bandwidth as well as higher speed which translates into augmented graphics, correct?

    If so, why did Microsoft opt to employ the ddr3, inferior, ram selection? Will the esRAM work to diminish the bandwidth as the new articles have acclaimed, or will it not?

    As far as I'm concerned, the 192 GB/s bandwidth is a theoretical calculation while the realistic bandwidth speed will be projected at 133 GB/s. If this is true, the ps4's GDDR5 consistent, unified memory system will still possess a 176 GB/s bandwidth.
    You know, all that stuff is still up in the air. If that's true then surely Xbox One will benefit from it.

    Why they chose the DDR3 RAM is because they said themselves that they weren't targeting the highest graphics, it's supposed to be an all around system. Had they done that, they'd have to charge you more for it.

    Their solution to the RAM speed issue is quite clever and I feel that they will do just fine...I'm just not expecting it to be the top performer.

    Honestly most people will not care about the differences. If people cared that much, they'd go buy a PC. They'd go buy the Wii U instead of the 360/PS3. They want games and that's it.

    That's what MS is relying on and I think it will work to a good extent.

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