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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Sigh. I see where you're getting your calculations from now. You were communicating poorly, Foraeli.

    But no, you're still wrong. These aren't stock AMD parts we're talking about, and flop calculations are very straight forward and its easy to determine at this point regardless of the vendor. How you calculate flops does not differ between Nvidia and AMD, but the architectural inefficiencies\efficiencies of both play into it.

    Summary:

    1. Sony, not AMD, gave the flop rating for the PS4.
    2. AMD and Sony made modifications to the AMD GPU tech which ultimately landed in PS4.
    3. Flop counts are not the end all for overall performance, especially in a console.
    4. Using the 1.84 figure, as is provided by Sony, is the only rational thing to use. No hand waving or magical bull**** conversions (3.1 Nvidia flops = 3.8 AMD flops). If we're going to be using it to make comparisons at all.
    Actually, you simply never bothered to read my posts properly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    You can't directly compare GPUs across different vendors like that. NVIDIA rates their GPUs differently than AMD.

  2. #52
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    Where is MYND when you need him!

    It comes across as Foraeli just messing with you guys, It can be difficult to admit you are wrong in these internet 'exchanges', so perhaps just agree to disagree would be easiest.

    on-topic: can anyone explain what Raycasting of Audio is? in laymans terms

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Actually, you simply never bothered to read my posts properly.



    No offense to Foraeli, but I tire of this exchange. I'll check up on it later or something, especially if Mynd posts.


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    I think this thread has been totally side tracked....the main point was the GPU has the ability to handle several things besides graphics which allows the developer FREEDOM to develope the game to their liking either maxing out graphics or having extra computing power in situations where they may want to request....perhaps an especially demanding portion of the game. Fact is it is very obvious these parts aren't STOCK PC parts that everyone wants to just say it is. They have been specially designed to serve the PS4 bring the highest performance for games as possible. We already know MS didn't aim for that.....they admitted as much....they want their console to be a multimedia machine and sacrificed high end performance as per their own PR. Sony may not have stocked the PS4 with the highest end components possible in PC gaming but they have modified high performance parts that will be versatile and powerful enough to "MIMIC" high end performance as close as possible at a $399 price point......thats a win for me.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    I already told you it's not proper to compare horsepower ratings across different vender like that. NVIDIA rates their GPUs differently than AMD. What NVIDIA rates as 3.1 teraflops AMD will rate as 3.8 teraflops.



    I told you already that you can't directly compare the horsepower ratings that way, and I told you why you cannot. You are not listening properly at all.
    I think his point is....


    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    both next gen consoles are less than half the power of the 680GTX.
    YOU JUST DID.

    Also, regarding the PS4, it runs 2 separate 10mb bus's directly to/from the GPU.

    In other words you can directly send computed information via these bus's too and from the GPU and CPU.

    You can effectively treat the compute unit in the GPU as Heterogeneous computing.

    Not unlike the SPU's in the cell, except this is even faster.

    4 of the CU's are specifically designed to run as compute units.
    They have no equivalently balanced output ROP's. In other words as a balanced GPU, this units would have 12-14 CU's.

    Using the extra 4 CU's will help in possible shader claculations, but only for very very complex shaders.

    Not only that but you can run these 4 completly seperaltey from the other 14.

    In other words CU's can be running calculaitons, while others can be doing GPU rendering.

    This is not an either/or situation.
    Both next gen consoles can split the workload between Compute and rendering in parallel.
    Last edited by mynd; 07-03-2013 at 00:26.
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  7. #56
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    Finally! Someone who reads who reads the whole sentence instead of just half. lol

  8. #57
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    He's disagreeing with you.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Finally! Someone who reads who reads the whole sentence instead of just half. lol
    Comparing any Nvidia card is pointless. Lets just leave it at that.
    They run different setups and are stronger in some areas and weaker in others.
    Bringing them in to any discussion about pure AMD based products is pointless.

    Making a broad generalization like less than 50% powerful is no different than a direct comparison, because it can easily be argued that they are not 50% less powerful, its like saying an apple is twice the orange an orange is.
    Last edited by mynd; 07-03-2013 at 00:33.
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  11. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Comparing any Nvidia card is pointless. Lets just leave it at that.
    They run different setups and are stronger in some areas and weaker in others.
    Bringing them in to any discussion about pure AMD based products is pointless.
    It's not pointless. The 680GTX is actually a close equivalent to the HD7970 despite this. Both are neck-and-neck in most all game comparisons as they are designed to compete with each other. And at any rate, they used very poor horsepower ratings to conclude the power of the console to PC hardware. Thank you tho for actually reading my posts lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    It's not pointless. The 680GTX is actually a close equivalent to the HD7970 despite this. Both are neck-and-neck in most all game comparisons as they are designed to compete with each other. And at any rate, they used very poor horsepower ratings to conclude the power of the console to PC hardware. Thank you tho for actually reading my posts lol.
    Not sure why you would compare a closed box system to a PC component in the first place.
    Between coding efficiencies and tighter bus control, you gong to see efficiencies exceeding their teraflop spec differences.
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  14. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Not sure why you would compare a closed box system to a PC component in the first place.
    Between coding efficiencies and tighter bus control, you gong to see efficiencies exceeding their teraflop spec differences.
    There is a God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Eh? How does using the GPU for Decompression, Raycasting of Audio, Physics Simulation, Collision Detection, and World Simulation free up the GPU to do more? That's just plain backwards. I don't think you understand how GPUs work.
    You are making it sound as if they MUST do all of this. They don't, they don't have to do any of this. You're confusing yourself.

    The ability to perform asynchronous complex processes will just make the GPU more efficient. What individual devs choose to do will be up to them, or they could choose to never use this "feature" and thus nothing would change, but this flexibility is an improvement no matter how you look at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparc View Post
    For goodness sake I hope nobody thinks to start labelling the console an Xbrick,
    oops
    -Regarding the Xbone A.K.A. the Xbrick

    "Faith - that's another word for ignorance isn't it?" -House

  16. #63
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    Mynd's theme song in this thread



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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Not sure why you would compare a closed box system to a PC component in the first place.
    Between coding efficiencies and tighter bus control, you gong to see efficiencies exceeding their teraflop spec differences.
    Of course, optimization of closed platforms will allow the hardware to be more powerful, but that's not relevant in showing how powerful these consoles are compared to past generations. The Xbox 360 was more powerful for its time than the PS4 is given today's technology. Hence, why I am making the comparison to PC hardware.

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    Crock of ****.

    Move to 0:18.

  20. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Of course, optimization of closed platforms will allow the hardware to be more powerful, but that's not relevant in showing how powerful these consoles are compared to past generations. The Xbox 360 was more powerful for its time than the PS4 is given today's technology. Hence, why I am making the comparison to PC hardware.
    Who told you the Xbox 360 had a more powerful GPU than top end at the time?
    It has 128 bit bus which crippled it for starters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    Crock of ****.

    Move to 0:18.

    Probably not the best example, Oblivion was developed on Xbox mostly with an Apple G3.
    But yes, there was GPU's that had more powerful advantages (memory for starters).
    Last edited by mynd; 07-03-2013 at 02:28.
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  21. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Who told you the Xbox 360 had a more powerful GPU than top end at the time?
    It has 128 bit bus which crippled it for starters.
    Who told you I ever thought an Xbox 360 was more powerful than a powerful top end GPU in 2005? All I said was that the 360 was more powerful for its time than the PS4 is for its time. Why misconstrue what I say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Probably not the best example, Oblivion was developed on Xbox mostly with an Apple G3.
    But yes, there was GPU's that had more powerful advantages (memory for starters).
    My point is that you're not going to see a big change such as this moving forward. In fact, many publications have already stated that consoles are catching up rather than getting left behind.

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  24. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Who told you I ever thought an Xbox 360 was more powerful than a powerful top end GPU in 2005? All I said was that the 360 was more powerful for its time than the PS4 is for its time. Why misconstrue what I say?
    Sorry misread what you were trying to say.

    What tells you that these GPU's aren't as relatively powerful?
    Teraflops?

    Just because someone makes a ridiculously over priced GPU (relative to what was offered back then), doesn't mean that these GPU's are underpowered compared the average consumer spend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    My point is that you're not going to see a big change such as this moving forward. In fact, many publications have already stated that consoles are catching up rather than getting left behind.
    Catching up? They passed PC's having 8 cores and 64 bit native o/s.
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  25. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Catching up? They passed PC's having 8 cores and 64 bit native o/s.
    I have yet to talk about specs. I'm speaking about actual game performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Sorry misread what you were trying to say.

    What tells you that these GPU's aren't as relatively powerful?
    Teraflops?

    Just because someone makes a ridiculously over priced GPU (relative to what was offered back then), doesn't mean that these GPU's are underpowered compared the average consumer spend.
    I don't expect next gen consoles to rival high end PC hardware, but I do wish they were a bit more powerful than what they are. It would make some visual effects a little easy to do.

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    Look at it this way...

    In 2005 at launch of the 360, the top dog AMD chip was the x1800 which would cost you $549 ($695 with inflaiton).
    A titan will cost $1249.

    This $695 GPU was much better then the GPU in the 360.

    So what does say $495 get you now? (I have no idea Im not American)
    HOw does THAT compare to the GPU's in these systems?
    Last edited by mynd; 07-03-2013 at 03:40.
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  29. #73
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    lol this guy. next-gen consoles are already competing with the best PC graphics right now. I'm not seeing any PC games that will be out by then that will be better-looking and the PC versions of these games aren't likely going to be much better either.

    Some visual effects? People don't care about about these "some visual effects" are because as it looks right now, I'm not seeing anything PC that next-gen consoles can't do...not speaking about oh PC has OpenGL 4.2 with this or that, I'm saying, show me a game that looks far better and then you have an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Look at it this way...

    In 2005 at launch of the 360, the top dog AMD chip was the x1800 which would cost you $549 ($695 with inflaiton).
    A titan will cost $1249.

    This $695 GPU was much better then the GPU in the 360.

    So what does say $495 get you now? (I have no idea Im not American)
    HOw does THAT compare to the GPU's in these systems?
    Exactly. And games back then didn't need 2 or 3 GPUs for the PC games to run well. Optimization is becoming extremely important now. Thus why the jump to x86 is happening because Sony and MS are about to take over more PC market than last time. I am expecting many more PC gamers to make the jump as it's becoming more and more ridiculous to play the latest games with good settings.

    Enthusiasts will stick but more of the mid-ranged gamers will break.
    Last edited by Sufi; 07-03-2013 at 03:43.

  30. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Look at it this way...

    In 2005 at launch of the 360, the top dog AMD chip was the x1800 which would cost you $549 ($695 with inflaiton).
    A titan will cost $1249.

    This $695 GPU was much better then the GPU in the 360.

    So what does say $495 get you now? (I have no idea Im not American)
    HOw does THAT compare to the GPU's in these systems?
    I will not acknowledge any comparison of the PS4 to the Titan. That's unrealistic. I'm comparing it to the 680GTX as I keep saying and for the reason that the 680GTX is the 7800GTX equivalent of 2013.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    I will not acknowledge any comparison of the PS4 to the Titan. That's unrealistic. I'm comparing it to the 680GTX as I keep saying and for the reason that the 680GTX is the 7800GTX equivalent of 2013.
    I'm only using the titan as its the most expensive gfx card I know of. You can replace it with whatever other top gfx card you want. I'm actually implicitly asking you to NOT compare it with these cards.
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