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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    That's an error there. The ARM is a single core V7 and it's sole lone job in this world is DVR. It's grabs the outgoing buffer (essentially HDMI buffer) and writes it back to the HDD for the Share function. I don't have a Dev kit but everything i've seen indicates that, especially if the block diagram leaks are accurate. You WANT the OS and the game speaking the same ISA language. (x86-64).
    Yeah, I doubt the ARM runs the OS when it's not in the background. It does handle standby mode, downloads, uploads, freeze-frames current gameplay in memory for instant-on gaming, etc.

    Here's some info on it that lends to it possibly being able to handle the OS in the background, so that possibly none of the main CPU cores have to be dedicated to the OS while in-game:

    The Cortex-A5 comes designed for applications that require virtual memory management for high-level operating systems within an extremely low power profile.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraTrstrL View Post
    Yeah, it's Mark Cerny, the guy has that King Midus touch of gold. Sony allowing him to be the PS4 architect was the best thing they could have ever done. A developer creating the hardware for developers to use. Microsoft's main exclusives have always been nearly 100% shooters. I also have to wonder how many of Xbone's current exclusives are really just timed exclusives that haven't been stated as such yet. For instance, Titan is really just a timed exclusive on 360, Xbone and PC. I'm not that impressed with Killer Instinct 3, the dev team behind it doesn't have a great track record, and the look of it strays too much from the original. I was surprised that Insomniac Games was making something for Xbone, but it seems they are working on a new Ratchet & Clank possibly on PS4. Going by the recent World's Collide solar eclipse teaser pic that surfaced a few days ago, it's been tied to Insomniac Games now.



    Oh, true, I forgot about the HyperVisor virtual machine. You're right, that definitely is part of the large ram reservation for OS.


    @Sufi, I agree, these consoles aren't ready to be sharing their power for such robust entertainment uses like Xbone is so boldly attempting, unless it had the raw hardware power of a top end PC/GPU to begin with, but it's far from that. Like John Willaford states, the hUMA will definitely give a great performance boost, but this is to help keep the consoles going for a few years as PCs fly by their raw computing power even further. The PS4 has done everything in it's power to reduce the overhead of all the background OS and extra social functionality, while the Xbone just throws a large chunk of it's vital resources away on excessive features that most people won't even use. Many people don't even use cable boxes anymore, I dunno though, they have research teams that put big money into these things, so I guess they know what they are doing. It just doesn't seem to be aimed at hardcore gamers though, that's for sure.
    That's every console ever, BUT, this time we have RAM!!!! GOBS OF F'N RAM. There's things that RAM lets a programmer do. For now, they can forgo some things and save time (like not compressing things and not streaming things back and forth from the HDD file system so much).
    This system handles tons of quality on screen details at next gen level at 1080p and the RAM lets the programmers calculate the world in the BG instead of having to keep the scope down to certain areas of the environment. Some games handle it well sofar (KillZone, most of what i saw) some don't handle it well (Honestly, Metal Gear, go look at the demo and watch items pop in and out of the background, i'm serious).
    PC hardware has been evolving higher and higher pixel fill rates to deal with beyond 1080p graphics and multimonitor support, which we aren't fathoming here on consoles yet.
    Now, lets look at results i call HOPELESS $#@!E. Okay.
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...4,3542-12.html
    There's Crysis 3 at 1080p with LOW REZ TEXTURES on PC, not even touching the 60fps barrier with high end hardware!!! ON A PC. So, I don't care about that. Mysteriously, watch it run better on consoles.
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...4,3542-15.html
    Now, look at Elder Scrolls Skyrm
    Ultra Details at 1080p is over 80fps, which I don't even need, and thats on a 660ti, which a PS4 can best.
    You can't get 80fps out of your monitor (not MOST lcd anyway) or tv, you need 60. On the console, that extra 20fps is put into on screen detail since they know what the hardware is and can target appropriately.

    PC performance is all over the map and not worth the hassel for your average human being. Give them a console and they can use it for 5 years for the cost of 1 graphics card, and their PC can happily browse Pron sites unabated.

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  4. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Based on synthetic marks from a Quad Core Jaguar running Kabini, i'd say it's got to rank right up there with an i5 actually.
    http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ew,3518-6.html
    So you mean the 8-core jag is roughly the equivalent of an i5? I've heard chatter on and off about that figure, and Carmack said that from a CPU perspective consoles get "atleast double" the performance that PC's get.

    So I suppose that would peg it at or above an i5, going by that benchmark, taking into consideration tweaks made by Sony\AMD and doubling the core amount, and Carmack's statement.


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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraTrstrL View Post
    Yeah, I doubt the ARM runs the OS when it's not in the background. It does handle standby mode, downloads, uploads, freeze-frames current gameplay in memory for instant-on gaming, etc.

    Here's some info on it that lends to it possibly being able to handle the OS in the background, so that possibly none of the main CPU cores have to be dedicated to the OS while in-game:

    The Cortex-A5 comes designed for applications that require virtual memory management for high-level operating systems within an extremely low power profile.
    Right, but, again, i'm just saying your pretty much want your OS and game talking the same ISA, the actual instruction set, ARM doesn't talk x86. There's a TINY almost insignificant ARM core on there with it's own microprogram that just grabs video/audio and shoves it back to the hdd. The JAGUAR cores can reach VERY LOW power states, no need to use the ARM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    So you mean the 8-core jag is roughly the equivalent of an i5? I've heard chatter on and off about that figure, and Carmack said that from a CPU perspective consoles get "atleast double" the performance that PC's get.

    So I suppose that would peg it at or above an i5, going by that benchmark, taking into consideration tweaks made by Sony\AMD and doubling the core amount, and Carmack's statement.
    Right, as I wrote in my once upon a time bedtime story relating the development of the XBone to the PS4 a while back, SONY's engineers were working with AMD hardcore behind the scenes. Doubling number of cores AND going to a 256 bit memory architecture, SONY's secret sauce on handling high bandwidth communication ASYNCHRONOUSLY among cpu and gpu resources, loads of other fun. MS handed AMD some money and said we want you to use this expensive 6 bit ESRAM and validate these data move engines and we need HDMI IN etc blah blah blah... and pretty much it was up to AMD to make it, while, Microsoft made the Kinect 2 and the new Controller. That's the difference, SONY makes chips all the time, particularly for visual display (Bravia Engine TVs anybody). Developers didnt want a new CELL, so, SONY went to AMD and said 'Lets piece some stuff together using friggin ROCKET FUEL!!!. 5500MHZ should be about right!!! (Speed of the GDDR5 RAM). You have to see the PS3 to appreciate what those nutjobs are capable of. That motherboard was a Lithographer's nightmare, but, they validated it. NOW, all of those traces are ON DIE on the APU, MUCH NICER, and meaning it can get much faster. USING DDR3 SLOWS DOWN the GCN cores from their normal function, something else MS doesn't want you to ponder! Cheap $50-100 cards use DDR 3 and a hundred or so cores for a cheap office solution, you never see DDR3 on a serious graphics solution these days.

    Yes, i'm guessing that between the 5500mhz bandwidth and the 8 cores, this 8 core Jaguar performs squarely in the i5 3xxx performance range, not sure if Haswell is any marked improvement. I'm confident the PS4 is as fast as my i7 970 with a 2gb 6950 in it, how's that for an endorsement? Not all parts are equal, certainly not that CPU ( I have 12 thread and 6 core, but i don't have 5500mhz memory tied to those 12 threads!). The video portion on the PS4 should be the same and slightly better as it's slightly newer GCN 2.0 update on the PS4, and you throw in the hUMA memory management and alot of traditional bottlenecks disappear!
    Last edited by John Willaford; 07-10-2013 at 19:13. Reason: address i5 question.

  7. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Right, but, again, i'm just saying your pretty much want your OS and game talking the same ISA, the actual instruction set, ARM doesn't talk x86. There's a TINY almost insignificant ARM core on there with it's own microprogram that just grabs video/audio and shoves it back to the hdd. The JAGUAR cores can reach VERY LOW power states, no need to use the ARM.
    You keep mentioning the grabbing of video/audio, you aren't talking about the 15 minute block of constant streaming vid for sharing are you? Because the PS4 has a separate dedicated video encoder that handles that.

    Here's a little image I think that came from a slideshow or so during one of the PS4 talks that also states that the ARM runs the OS.

  8. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Right, as I wrote in my once upon a time bedtime story relating the development of the XBone to the PS4 a while back, SONY's engineers were working with AMD hardcore behind the scenes. Doubling number of cores AND going to a 256 bit memory architecture, SONY's secret sauce on handling high bandwidth communication ASYNCHRONOUSLY among cpu and gpu resources, loads of other fun. MS handed AMD some money and said we want you to use this expensive 6 bit ESRAM and validate these data move engines and we need HDMI IN etc blah blah blah... and pretty much it was up to AMD to make it, while, Microsoft made the Kinect 2 and the new Controller. That's the difference, SONY makes chips all the time, particularly for visual display (Bravia Engine TVs anybody). Developers didnt want a new CELL, so, SONY went to AMD and said 'Lets piece some stuff together using friggin ROCKET FUEL!!!. 5500MHZ should be about right!!! (Speed of the GDDR5 RAM). You have to see the PS3 to appreciate what those nutjobs are capable of. That motherboard was a Lithographer's nightmare, but, they validated it. NOW, all of those traces are ON DIE on the APU, MUCH NICER, and meaning it can get much faster. USING DDR3 SLOWS DOWN the GCN cores from their normal function, something else MS doesn't want you to ponder! Cheap $50-100 cards use DDR 3 and a hundred or so cores for a cheap office solution, you never see DDR3 on a serious graphics solution these days.

    Yes, i'm guessing that between the 5500mhz bandwidth and the 8 cores, this 8 core Jaguar performs squarely in the i5 3xxx performance range, not sure if Haswell is any marked improvement. I'm confident the PS4 is as fast as my i7 970 with a 2gb 6950 in it, how's that for an endorsement? Not all parts are equal, certainly not that CPU ( I have 12 thread and 6 core, but i don't have 5500mhz memory tied to those 12 threads!). The video portion on the PS4 should be the same and slightly better as it's slightly newer GCN 2.0 update on the PS4, and you throw in the hUMA memory management and alot of traditional bottlenecks disappear!
    interesting but i'd say that the video card on a PC would need much more than 2GB for its GPU to match PS4's full potential. as of right now, you may be right.

  9. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Wait, do we know for sure that the ARM core(s) are running the OS? I thought 2 CPU cores were reserved on PS4?
    And prevalently one GPU pipeline "mode" is directly linked to the Hyper-visor, or has been debunked now?

  10. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraTrstrL View Post
    You keep mentioning the grabbing of video/audio, you aren't talking about the 15 minute block of constant streaming vid for sharing are you? Because the PS4 has a separate dedicated video encoder that handles that.

    Here's a little image I think that came from a slideshow or so during one of the PS4 talks that also states that the ARM runs the OS.
    I can't put faith in the validity of that graphic you show me. Nothing direct from SONY is going to make note of comparing it's hardware to the XBOne with the asterisk at the bottom.

    My understanding is that the ARM Core IS doing that task, as well as managing download blocks once pushed an IP and file path.

    An enhanced AMD TrustZone chip.

  11. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Right, as I wrote in my once upon a time bedtime story relating the development of the XBone to the PS4 a while back, SONY's engineers were working with AMD hardcore behind the scenes. Doubling number of cores AND going to a 256 bit memory architecture, SONY's secret sauce on handling high bandwidth communication ASYNCHRONOUSLY among cpu and gpu resources, loads of other fun. MS handed AMD some money and said we want you to use this expensive 6 bit ESRAM and validate these data move engines and we need HDMI IN etc blah blah blah... and pretty much it was up to AMD to make it
    Wow, what a load of crap. That's not at all in any way shape or form, true.

  12. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    I can't put faith in the validity of that graphic you show me. Nothing direct from SONY is going to make note of comparing it's hardware to the XBOne with the asterisk at the bottom.

    My understanding is that the ARM Core IS doing that task, as well as managing download blocks once pushed an IP and file path.

    An enhanced AMD TrustZone chip.
    Ok, this was from an old Japanese Press interview with Mark Cerney:


    "Built-In Video Encoder for Video Sharing and Vita Remote-Play

    Cerney: The PS4 has a dedicated encoder for video sharing and such. There are a few dedicated encoder and decoder functions which are available and use the APU minimally. This is also used for playback of compressed in-game audio in MP3 and audio chat.

    When the system is fully on, the x86 CPU core controls the video sharing system. However the Southbridge has features to assist with network traffic control."

    It doesn't mention the ARM being used for the video sharing or remote play, other than possibly assisting in network traffic control, considering the ARM is sitting in the Southbridge. The main pull is just minimum APU resources along with the dedicated encoder/decoder. I'm actively searching for more info about the OS, I'll get back to you on that when I find something worthwhile.

    ~~~~
    Ok, I keep running into articles stating the ARM processor in the PS4 is a Cortex A-9 ARMv7.

    Here is a little specs page on the A-9:

    "Optimized Level 1 Caches -Performance and power optimized L1 caches combine minimal access latency techniques to maximize performance and minimize power consumption. Also providing the option for cache coherence for enhanced inter-processor communication or support of rich SMP capable OS for simplified multicore software development"

    "Generic Interrupt Controller - Implementing the standardized and architected interrupt controller, the GIC provides a rich and flexible approach to inter-processor communication and the routing and prioritization of system interrupts. Supporting up to 224 independent interrupts, under software control, distribution of each interrupt across CPUs is made possible. Interrupts are hardware prioritized and can be routed between the operating system and TrustZone software management layer."

    I'm not sure, but that sounds like it could be possible to route low level OS operations through the ARM, like whatever little would be needed for it's background functionality while you are in-game.

    Then this is from Wikipedia:

    "Desktop operating systems

    The ARM architecture is supported by Windows RT and multiple Unix-like operating systems, including BSD and various Linux distributions such as Chrome OS."

    I know it doesn't specifically state ARM v7 there, but BSD is right there, and is very lightweight, probably inbetween a mobile OS and a lightweight desktop OS.
    Last edited by XtraTrstrL; 07-11-2013 at 00:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    And prevalently one GPU pipeline "mode" is directly linked to the Hyper-visor, or has been debunked now?
    Gonna be real with you, I have no idea what that means lol.

    You mean a GPU reservation for the OS? I thought this was fact- and that all modern consoles with in-game OS's did this (PS3, 360, WiiU, PS4, XboxOne).

    Also, what exactly did John say that was a 'load of crap'? I only ask because I'd rather there be an open and concise discussion about this sort of thing.. So people, such as myself, are not lead astray.

    Let us not suffer a thread to become a den of ( popular) lies and misunderstandings.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 07-11-2013 at 00:15.


  14. #138
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    Is there anything the PS4's GPU won't do? The sky's the limit for Sony.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Gonna be real with you, I have no idea what that means lol.

    You mean a GPU reservation for the OS? I thought this was fact- and that all modern consoles with in-game OS's did this (PS3, 360, WiiU, PS4, XboxOne).

    Also, what exactly did John say that was a 'load of crap'? I only ask because I'd rather there be an open and concise discussion about this sort of thing.. So people, such as myself, are not lead astray.

    Let us not suffer a thread to become a den of ( popular) lies and misunderstandings.
    This is complete crap:

    MS handed AMD some money and said we want you to use this expensive 6 bit ESRAM and validate these data move engines and we need HDMI IN etc blah blah blah... and pretty much it was up to AMD to make it
    Considering the custom silicon was built and designed by MS, using their own visualization software to validate it befor eit was ever handed to any one to FAB.

    Now as for the GPU:

    High Priority Graphics (HP3D) ring and pipeline

    New for Liverpool
    Same as GFX pipeline except no compute capabilities
    For exclusive use by VShell


    There is a ring without compute used exclusively by the Vshell (according to VGleaks anyway).
    This takes priority over any other GPU tasks. It bumps it directly pass the rest of the system.

  16. #140
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    Lol just like you always saying Sony slapped off the shelve hardware together? When in fact everything in the ps4 has been modified

    Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    Lol just like you always saying Sony slapped off the shelve hardware together? When in fact everything in the ps4 has been modified

    Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk
    and it's not "efficient" enough to hold the "on paper" power advantage over the xbone

    Destiny and Middle Earth: Shadow of Mordor is all I need for the rest of the year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    Lol just like you always saying Sony slapped off the shelve hardware together? When in fact everything in the ps4 has been modified

    Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk
    Sony have said that, and its not simply off the shelf parts, it's modified off the sdhelf parts.

    Even the AMD guys who worked on it have said the PS4 is "semi-custom" vs "custom silicon" on the Xbox One.

    The modification are well documents on the PS4. And you say off the shelf like its a bad thing.

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    PS4 GPU Can perform asynchronous complex processes

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Sony have said that, and its not simply off the shelf parts, it's modified off the sdhelf parts.

    Even the AMD guys who worked on it have said the PS4 is "semi-custom" vs "custom silicon" on the Xbox One.

    The modification are well documents on the PS4. And you say off the shelf like its a bad thing.
    Erm... the Xbox One innards was a co-op development between MS and AMD. PS4 is a co-op development between AMD and Sony.

    If you're going to be anal about the use of the word custom, both have been stated as being "semi-custom", specifically regarding the APU.

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Xbo...ion,22726.html

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/APU...ash,21229.html

    Both consoles have "semi-custom" components. Both have pros and cons. Devs will churn out great games for both. But you're scratching at the bottom of the barrel with your wording here. Seriously.


    "However, I can say each APU was customized and tailor-made for Microsoft and Sony and their respective console and experience design points."
    The article does go on to talk about the custom CPU in the XBO, but I haven't read anything about off the shelf parts, sorry.
    Last edited by Brandon; 07-11-2013 at 02:05.
    "The biggest adversary in our life is ourselves. We are what we are, in a sense, because of the dominating thoughts we allow to gather in our head. All concepts of self-improvement, all actions and paths we take, relate solely to our abstract image of ourselves. Life is limited only by how we really see ourselves and feel about our being. A great deal of pure self-knowledge and inner understanding allows us to lay an all-important foundation for the structure of our life from which we can perceive and take the right avenues.

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    I can't wait to see what (first party) developers will come up with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutButterMunky View Post
    Erm... the Xbox One innards was a co-op development between MS and AMD. PS4 is a co-op development between AMD and Sony.
    Sony have stated they took what AMD gave them and beefed up certain aspects by adding more ring buffers/queues and strengthening the garlic/onion bus's. In many respects its not so much co-developed as much as "modified".

    The Xbox One is a fully customized GPU, while aspects of it have come from AMD's reference designs, there is plenty that is just not normal about this machine including.

    If you're going to be anal about the use of the word custom, both have been stated as being "semi-custom", specifically regarding the APU.
    You only have to look at what each respective party has told us about the units. The PS4 is a customization of off the shelf parts.

    Think of it like a car that you've taken off the assembly line then modified.
    On the other side, the Xbox One is a fully built unit from the ground up.
    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Xbo...ion,22726.html

    http://www.tomshardware.com/news/APU...ash,21229.html

    Both consoles have "semi-custom" components. Both have pros and cons. Devs will churn out great games for both. But you're scratching at the bottom of the barrel with your wording here. Seriously.

    The article does go on to talk about the custom CPU in the XBO, but I haven't read anything about off the shelf parts, sorry.

    As I have said, there is absolutely nothing semi-custom about the Xbox One in any way. They touched and modified every single componant of the silicon.
    Last edited by mynd; 07-11-2013 at 04:00.

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    Please... just stop.
    "The biggest adversary in our life is ourselves. We are what we are, in a sense, because of the dominating thoughts we allow to gather in our head. All concepts of self-improvement, all actions and paths we take, relate solely to our abstract image of ourselves. Life is limited only by how we really see ourselves and feel about our being. A great deal of pure self-knowledge and inner understanding allows us to lay an all-important foundation for the structure of our life from which we can perceive and take the right avenues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeanutButterMunky View Post
    Please... just stop.
    Perhaps you need to do some lite reading...

    http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2013/05/xbox-one/

    http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/b...n-inside-look/

    I have to go pick my kids up, but I'll post the plethora of Sony stuff when I get back.

    I suggest you start with Gamasutra's discussion with Cerny about the PS4 architecture

    http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/191007/

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    do you have a link stating that the Xbox One was built from the ground up? I have seen the quote where they said that they touched every component but where does it say that they built it from the ground up?

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    PS4 GPU Can perform asynchronous complex processes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    do you have a link stating that the Xbox One was built from the ground up? I have seen the quote where they said that they touched every component but where does it say that they built it from the ground up?
    Nowhere... and I'm genuinely trying to find it... and I don't even care if it is or if PS4 is "off the shelf" components... I've just read things to the contrary.
    "The biggest adversary in our life is ourselves. We are what we are, in a sense, because of the dominating thoughts we allow to gather in our head. All concepts of self-improvement, all actions and paths we take, relate solely to our abstract image of ourselves. Life is limited only by how we really see ourselves and feel about our being. A great deal of pure self-knowledge and inner understanding allows us to lay an all-important foundation for the structure of our life from which we can perceive and take the right avenues.

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    mynd, could you please forward us to where we should be reading about that from those links? Not all of us have tons of time to read lol.

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