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    PS4 GPU Can perform asynchronous complex processes

    A couple of days back, Mark Cerny, the lead architect on the PlayStation 4, attended Gamelab 2013, a developer conference which took place in Barcelona. At the conference he spoke in great length about the PS4 and its set of features.

    He also spoke about how the PS4′s GPU is not only limited to handling the graphics but also complex processes which is traditionally handled by the CPU.
    “We have worked hard to ensure that the console has a rich feature set, which will allow it to grow over the years and support the overall evolution of gaming. And our work there on that rich feature was to focus on making sure that for those teams that were interested in investing time, the GPU could be used for far more conventional graphics. Principally, we enhanced the GPU to make the use of asynchronous fine grained compute practical on the platform. So the asynchronous refers to the GPU doing many tasks which is not directly related to graphics.”
    He believes that the developers will be able to develop richer worlds if they are able to unlock the true potential of this feature set.

    “Physics simulation, collision detection, ray casting for audio, decompression and the like. And these operations are fine grained meaning that there will be many small world simulation tasks running on the GPU simultaneously alongside rendering of the game scenes. So the concept is that as game developers learn to use these techniques later on in the console life cycle, we will see richer and even more interactive worlds.”
    The presentation also had a slide which gave more details about the PS4 GPU and it’s capabilities:

    As you can see from the image above, the PS4′s GPU can also handle some of the CPU based tasks like collision detection and simulation.
    Decompression
    Raycasting of Audio
    Physics Simulation
    Collision Detection
    World Simulation
    http://gamingbolt.com/mark-cerny-exp...plex-processes
    Last edited by BrosephFTW; 07-02-2013 at 03:55.
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    Well, hopefully developers will use this feature. I can't wait to see what (first party) developers will come up with.

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    Whats an asynchronous complex processes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A1ANDY View Post
    Whats an asynchronous complex processes?
    Basically it means they can do a lot of crap - anytime they want - on a lot of things they normally couldn't.

    Often you'll see the GPU being used to do some limited complex processes, but it would often be lock step w/ other processing going on in the GPU as GPU's tend to be very synchronous. This would give it a bit more freedom in performing these extra complex processes by not limiting when they can be done (or potentially tying up other HW when they are being done.)



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    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ427 View Post
    Basically it means they can do a lot of crap - anytime they want - on a lot of things they normally couldn't.

    Often you'll see the GPU being used to do some limited complex processes, but it would often be lock step w/ other processing going on in the GPU as GPU's tend to be very synchronous. This would give it a bit more freedom in performing these extra complex processes by not limiting when they can be done (or potentially tying up other HW when they are being done.)
    OK that's about what I thought.




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    Decompression, Raycasting of Audio, Physics Simulation, Collision Detection, and World Simulation. That GPU is not going to have any anything left to power the graphics. The GPU is already underpowered is as and doesn't need this extra burden slowing it down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Decompression, Raycasting of Audio, Physics Simulation, Collision Detection, and World Simulation. That GPU is not going to have any anything left to power the graphics. The GPU is already underpowered is as and doesn't need this extra burden slowing it down.
    If anything being able to do this should free up resources at times, given that the devs can program it so that it's always using as much of it's power that it can instead of using 50% at one point and then using 100% at another point.

    Your post comes off as just another one of these "PS4 = weak sauce" posts, and adds little to nothing to the discussion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VayMasters86 View Post
    If anything being able to do this should free up resources at times, given that the devs can program it so that it's always using as much of it's power that it can instead of using 50% at one point and then using 100% at another point.

    Your post comes off as just another one of these "PS4 = weak sauce" posts, and adds little to nothing to the discussion.
    Eh? How does using the GPU for Decompression, Raycasting of Audio, Physics Simulation, Collision Detection, and World Simulation free up the GPU to do more? That's just plain backwards. I don't think you understand how GPUs work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Eh? How does using the GPU for Decompression, Raycasting of Audio, Physics Simulation, Collision Detection, and World Simulation free up the GPU to do more? That's just plain backwards. I don't think you understand how GPUs work.
    You are making it sound as if they MUST do all of this. They don't, they don't have to do any of this. You're confusing yourself.

    The ability to perform asynchronous complex processes will just make the GPU more efficient. What individual devs choose to do will be up to them, or they could choose to never use this "feature" and thus nothing would change, but this flexibility is an improvement no matter how you look at it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparc View Post
    For goodness sake I hope nobody thinks to start labelling the console an Xbrick,
    oops
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Decompression, Raycasting of Audio, Physics Simulation, Collision Detection, and World Simulation. That GPU is not going to have any anything left to power the graphics. The GPU is already underpowered is as and doesn't need this extra burden slowing it down.
    Top PC games today are powered by much less.
    Note: Even though Titan is available games today are not making use of that tech.

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    The idea behind having all those ACE's onboard and streamlining the GPGPU compute process in PS4 is that, when the PS4 GPU has down time (and it will, GPU's aren't being 100% utilized 100% of the time) you can slot it to do these other tasks. Basically incorporating this potential into the render flow for the game.

    I'm also not sure why you think this thing is 'under powered'. The growth from PS3-->PS4 is a very large one.

    Just over half of all GPU's for PC gaming (STEAM survey) are DX11.

    http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/


    Look at the RAM and CPU statistics here:

    http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

    Further, just because there exist ever more powerful GPU's coming out all the time doesn't mean that PC gamers are dropping their stuff and going out and getting them in droves. Modern GPU's are getting terribly powerful yes, but also very hot and expensive. It wasn't like this in 2006, not even close.

    Further, the consoles are not at all like PC's. This has never been more true than it is now. We are talking about the world's most powerful APU's, which to put simplistically are a super processing unit from a holistic point of view, against typical discreet parts in PC's.

    The age old arguent has always been "sum of its parts" when it comes to consoles.. And now that they're APUs this adage is especially true.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 07-02-2013 at 21:54.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    The idea behind having all those ACE's onboard and streamlining the GPGPU compute process in PS4 is that, when the PS4 GPU has down time (and it will, GPU's aren't being 100% utilized 100% of the time) you can slot it to do these other tasks. Basically incorporating this potential into the render flow for the game.

    I'm also not sure why you think this thing is 'under powered'. The growth from PS3-->PS4 is a very large one.

    Just over half of all GPU's for PC gaming (STEAM survey) are DX11.

    http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/videocard/


    Look at the RAM and CPU statistics here:

    http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

    Further, just because there exist ever more powerful GPU's coming out all the time doesn't mean that PC gamers are dropping their stuff and going out and getting them in droves. Modern GPU's are getting terribly powerful yes, but also very hot and expensive. It wasn't like this in 2006, not even close.

    Further, the consoles are not at all like PC's. This has never been more true than it is now. We are talking about the world's most powerful APU's, which to put simplistically are a super processing unit from a holistic point of view, against typical discreet parts in PC's.

    The age old arguent has always been "sum of its parts" when it comes to consoles.. And now that they're APUs this adage is especially true.
    All you are saying is that if select scenes aren't demanding, your game can have things like physics enabled during those select scenes and those select scenes only. That's no different than how any other GPU. A less demanding scene means the developer can add to more make it demanding. And physics is going to take away a lot from the GPU. If you wish to know why Final Fantasy XV didn't look truly next gen, it's probably because the GPU is handling all the physics.

    And I don't what the purpose of comparing the power of the Playstation 4 to the 2006's PS3 and today's average joe's PC hardware to show how powerful the console is. While it is true that consoles never do rival top end PC hardware, it is also true that consoles don't release on hardware too significantly weaker. Last gen, consoles were about 70%-ish of the 7800GTX if you look at the raw specs iirc, but this time around, both next gen consoles are less than half the power of the 680GTX. It's going to be hard for these consoles to deliver a true next gen experience if the CPU is left untouched while the GPU does all the work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    All you are saying is that if select scenes aren't demanding, your game can have things like physics enabled during those select scenes and those select scenes only. That's no different than how any other GPU. A less demanding scene means the developer can add to more make it demanding. And physics is going to take away a lot from the GPU. If you wish to know why Final Fantasy XV didn't look truly next gen, it's probably because the GPU is handling all the physics.

    And I don't what the purpose of comparing the power of the Playstation 4 to the 2006's PS3 and today's average joe's PC hardware to show how powerful the console is. While it is true that consoles never do rival top end PC hardware, it is also true that consoles don't release on hardware too significantly weaker. Last gen, consoles were about 70%-ish of the 7800GTX if you look at the raw specs iirc, but this time around, both next gen consoles are less than half the power of the 680GTX. It's going to be hard for these consoles to deliver a true next gen experience if the CPU is left untouched while the GPU does all the work.
    Because this...



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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyClaw View Post
    Because this...

    That looks beautiful, but all those building are far off in the distance and thus have no real detail to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    All you are saying is that if select scenes aren't demanding, your game can have things like physics enabled during those select scenes and those select scenes only. That's no different than how any other GPU. A less demanding scene means the developer can add to more make it demanding. And physics is going to take away a lot from the GPU. If you wish to know why Final Fantasy XV didn't look truly next gen, it's probably because the GPU is handling all the physics.

    And I don't what the purpose of comparing the power of the Playstation 4 to the 2006's PS3 and today's average joe's PC hardware to show how powerful the console is. While it is true that consoles never do rival top end PC hardware, it is also true that consoles don't release on hardware too significantly weaker. Last gen, consoles were about 70%-ish of the 7800GTX if you look at the raw specs iirc, but this time around, both next gen consoles are less than half the power of the 680GTX. It's going to be hard for these consoles to deliver a true next gen experience if the CPU is left untouched while the GPU does all the work.
    http://techreport.com/review/22653/n...sor-reviewed/7


    GTX680 Tflops: 3.1
    PS4 Tflops: 1.84




    1.84/3.1 = .59

    PS4 is 60% as powerful as a GTX 680. A card that costs $450 USD and has a TDP of 195W all by itself (which is a large step down from the 580's TDP of 240W, but you get my point).

    So no, the PS4 is not "less than 50% as powerful as a GTX 680" unless you're using some other metric to make that case.

    That aside, flop count is not the end all be all of performance indication especially for a console.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 07-02-2013 at 23:11.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    http://techreport.com/review/22653/n...sor-reviewed/7


    GTX680 Tflops: 3.1
    PS4 Tflops: 1.84


    1.84/3.1 = .59

    PS4 is 60% as powerful as a GTX 680. A card that costs $450 USD and has a TDP of 195W all by itself (which is a large step down from the 580's TDP of 240W, but you get my point).

    So no, the PS4 is not "less than 50% as powerful as a GTX 680" unless you're using some other metric to make that case.
    You can't directly compare GPUs across different vendors like that. NVIDIA rates their GPUs differently than AMD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    I already told you it's not proper to compare horsepower ratings across different vender like that. NVIDIA rates their GPUs differently than AMD. What NVIDIA rates as 3.1 teraflops AMD will rate as 3.8 teraflops.



    I told you already that you can't directly compare the horsepower ratings that way, and I told you why you cannot. You are not listening properly at all.
    I think his point is....


    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    both next gen consoles are less than half the power of the 680GTX.
    YOU JUST DID.

    Also, regarding the PS4, it runs 2 separate 10mb bus's directly to/from the GPU.

    In other words you can directly send computed information via these bus's too and from the GPU and CPU.

    You can effectively treat the compute unit in the GPU as Heterogeneous computing.

    Not unlike the SPU's in the cell, except this is even faster.

    4 of the CU's are specifically designed to run as compute units.
    They have no equivalently balanced output ROP's. In other words as a balanced GPU, this units would have 12-14 CU's.

    Using the extra 4 CU's will help in possible shader claculations, but only for very very complex shaders.

    Not only that but you can run these 4 completly seperaltey from the other 14.

    In other words CU's can be running calculaitons, while others can be doing GPU rendering.

    This is not an either/or situation.
    Both next gen consoles can split the workload between Compute and rendering in parallel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Using the extra 4 CU's will help in possible shader claculations, but only for very very complex shaders.

    Not only that but you can run these 4 completly seperaltey from the other 14.

    In other words CU's can be running calculaitons, while others can be doing GPU rendering.

    This is not an either/or situation.
    Also during a time of a frame there are times when some of the ALUs, Texture units or ROPs are underutilized.
    The ability to use those resources for something else in that time is quite nice thing to have.

    Quite common case would be post processing which can be quite texture heavy and leaves ALUs twiddling their thumbs, this would be excellent time to raycast sounds.. (Even better might be the during rendering of G-Buffer and shadow maps)
    Simply put, getting more out of the GPU is a good thing.

    Fine grained control of GPU is very good thing to have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlippone View Post
    Also during a time of a frame there are times when some of the ALUs, Texture units or ROPs are underutilized.
    The ability to use those resources for something else in that time is quite nice thing to have.

    Quite common case would be post processing which can be quite texture heavy and leaves ALUs twiddling their thumbs, this would be excellent time to raycast sounds.. (Even better might be the during rendering of G-Buffer and shadow maps)
    Simply put, getting more out of the GPU is a good thing.

    Fine grained control of GPU is very good thing to have.
    The PS4 GPU does not have any solid 'division' between its CU's. It's 18 unified CU's, not a hard 14+4 split. ERP and other devs at B3D condemned this rumor as a 'misunderstanding' of the phrase 'balanced 14+4 CU's'.

    How exactly are these 4CU's limited\specialized vs the other 14?
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 07-03-2013 at 15:24.
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    Most people who have, say, a 2GB 6950 have felt no need to upgrade.
    The PS4 is right in line with that board and the CPU is being fed 5500mhz memory as well, which can't be done on PC.
    AMD CPU's tend to climb in performance with bandwidth, UNLIKE Intel, which performs most admirably on most any memory. I'm guessing it was a very good idea to feed Jaguar 5500mhz GDDR5 even if it's not an i7.
    When you add in the kind of performance boosts that hUMA would give such a platform, its VERY TURBO CHARGED and in many ways has efficiencies we won't see on a PC.

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    I'm sorry, but didn't you invite that comparison with:

    Last gen, consoles were about 70%-ish of the 7800GTX if you look at the raw specs iirc, but this time around, both next gen consoles are less than half the power of the 680GTX.
    So what I'm getting out of this, and pardon if this seems like it has a hostile tone, is that you can make comparisons between the next gen consoles (which sport AMD gpu's) when you think it suits your argument.. But I can't.

    This makes no sense to me.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 07-02-2013 at 23:18.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I'm sorry, but didn't you invite that comparison with:



    So what I'm getting out of this, and pardon if this seems like it has a hostile tone, is that you can make comparisons between the next gen consoles (which sport AMD gpu's) when you think it suits your argument.. But I can't.
    Of course I compared it to the power of the 680GTX. Because that stands to be absolutely true. But you are trying to directly compare the horsepower ratings across two different vendors, and that's a big no-no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Of course I compared it to the power of the 680GTX. Because that stands to be absolutely true. But you are trying to directly compare the horsepower ratings across two different vendors, and that's a big no-no.

    What? What are you even saying?

    Nvidia makes the GTX680, AMD makes the GPU's for both the next-gen consoles. Nvidia is not involved whatsoever in the next gen, AMD took it all.

    You're comparing the PS4 and Xbox One's graphical horsepower (AMD GPUs) to a GTX 680 by Nvidia.

    That's cross brand comparison.
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