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  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraTrstrL View Post
    Well, Titanfall was a main showing, Halo 5, they probably have a Gears being worked on.

    Atleast Titanfall will probably be making it to PS4 soon though. And it's possible that if Epic decides to bring Gears to next-gen, which I can't see why they wouldn't, it can make it to PS4, because Epic owns it. They just did an exclusive deal with Microsoft on 360. A little article on them talking Gears on next-gen.
    It's possible that gears will hit the PS4. It's also possible that MS will break out the check book again to keep it off PS4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    The embedded memory the Xbox One has has a ton of benefits for rendering.
    I'm very curious as to how this will pan out.
    Not much has been said on how much Xbox's esRam can really benefit the games graphics.
    MS may be $#@!in up but they aren't stupid, ok they are stupid but they know where to spend money so the embedded ram my surprise people.
    I still think Sony has the edge with a more strait forward design for Dev's.

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    What do i put in 32 megabytes? Not even a couple of textures? In a world with how many textures, what do i put in there?
    I accelerate Particles?

    What, i REALLY want to hear that answer.
    What ever is either bandwidth heavy or has quite random access pattern.
    Nice example would be very wide filter for post processing or a tree like structure.
    32MB of low latency memory is a good thing to have.

    So what you will use it for.
    A render target especially when rendering transparencies.
    Read source when doing things like octree GI etc.
    Post process source in general. (lots of read, little write.)
    Read and Write buffers.
    etc.
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  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlippone View Post
    What ever is either bandwidth heavy or has quite random access pattern.
    Nice example would be very wide filter for post processing or a tree like structure.
    32MB of low latency memory is a good thing to have.

    So what you will use it for.
    A render target especially when rendering transparencies.
    Read source when doing things like octree GI etc.
    Post process source in general. (lots of read, little write.)
    Read and Write buffers.
    etc.
    I suppose you mean things such as this...
    http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2013/0...-cone-tracing/

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    Yup, anything that has to deal with lot of reads and especially an indirect ones.
    32MB is not a lot, but I'm sure developers will find ways to use it creatively.
    Last edited by jlippone; 07-22-2013 at 06:29.
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  6. #456
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    Not to mention framebuffers and render targets.

    What you can stick in it, is the same
    stuff you could in the 360's plus a whole heap more.

    The 360 got away with 25gb/s bandwidth plus esram just fine.

    I think 68gb/s plus an even more flexible esram setup will be fine as well.

    People act like this system will be gimped or incapable.


    Its not anywhere near the same as an integrated ram setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Well, there's another Elephant in the room.

    On a Radeon 7850 card for example, the cores get 5500mhz GDDR5 memory!
    Integrated Graphics only get on the desktop DDR3 System Memory, and Low end Commodity Graphics Cards for Business computers to support Multiple Desktops get DDR3 as well, because it's cheap and the cores don't need to be fed bandwidth.

    Look at what happens just on Trinity APU's with a jump from DDR3 1333 to DDR 1866.

    Now, ask yourself, what can a programmer REALLY DO WITH ONLY 32 MEGABYTES OF NOT THAT FAST ESRAM (100gb/s bandwidth) to combat 8,192 Megabytes of FASTER 176GB/s GDDR5 ram? ...

    Look at what happens on Trinity with just a boost in DDR3.
    http://uk.hardware.info/reviews/4372...d-trinity-apus

    What do i put in 32 megabytes? Not even a couple of textures? In a world with how many textures, what do i put in there?
    I accelerate Particles?

    What, i REALLY want to hear that answer.
    You need to understand better what exactly is benefiting from the bandwidth increase, why you need that extra speed on a two way buss. And what data is going the other way and where it is going.

    Heres a hint...you PS3 writes to the same sets of 4 mb of data over and over and over again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Not to mention framebuffers and render targets.

    What you can stick in it, is the same
    stuff you could in the 360's plus a whole heap more.

    The 360 got away with 25gb/s bandwidth plus esram just fine.

    I think 68gb/s plus an even more flexible esram setup will be fine as well.

    People act like this system will be gimped or incapable.


    Its not anywhere near the same as an integrated ram setup.
    Well, the ~32GB/s was the read/write into the daughter die. (results from ALUs and results from daughter die to main ram.)
    The true savings came from the 256GB/s ROP operations into the render target.

    360 didn't use any framebuffer nor z-buffer compression, so XO should get away with less bandwidth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlippone View Post
    Well, the ~32GB/s was the read/write into the daughter die. (results from ALUs and results from daughter die to main ram.)
    The true savings came from the 256GB/s ROP operations into the render target.

    360 didn't use any framebuffer nor z-buffer compression, so XO should get away with less bandwidth.
    Exactly, people seem to underestimate the constant drain a framebuffer write is on rendering, taking it out of your pipeline and putting it somewhere else is an instant win and eases the bandwidth requirement of your memory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Exactly, people seem to underestimate the constant drain a framebuffer write is on rendering, taking it out of your pipeline and putting it somewhere else is an instant win and eases the bandwidth requirement of your memory.
    But having said that, the PS3 some how managed with the RSX having only 22GB/s to the GDDR3 ram. Though...was it possible to shift the frame buffer to the XDR ram as the FlexIO allowed for 20GB/s read and 15GB/s write, freeing up the GDDR3 bandwidth for other stuff?

    This is just the line of thought I had thinking that the 256GB/s afforded by the edram of the 360 would have given a much greater advantage...

    Also Mynd, is 32MB enough to hold all the frame buffers needed at 1080p? Cause I remember discussion on here that 10MB on the 360 was just slightly too little to allow 720p.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sajuuk Khar View Post
    But having said that, the PS3 some how managed with the RSX having only 22GB/s to the GDDR3 ram. Though...was it possible to shift the frame buffer to the XDR ram as the FlexIO allowed for 20GB/s read and 15GB/s write, freeing up the GDDR3 bandwidth for other stuff?

    This is just the line of thought I had thinking that the 256GB/s afforded by the edram of the 360 would have given a much greater advantage...
    For the most part RSX simply used lower resolution alpha effects or less of them. Developers did a great job of hiding these weaknesses.

    Also Mynd, is 32MB enough to hold all the frame buffers needed at 1080p? Cause I remember discussion on here that 10MB on the 360 was just slightly too little to allow 720p.
    A double buffered 1080p image with no multi sample anti aliasing will only take up about 16MB of that 32MB. If additional buffers are used they have room to calculate and blend them in the remaining space.

    The reason why the 360's 10MB wasn't enough for 720p original was because of MS requirement for 4x AA minimum resulting in a buffer size of 29.4MB. MS quickly dropped that requirement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sajuuk Khar View Post
    But having said that, the PS3 some how managed with the RSX having only 22GB/s to the GDDR3 ram. Though...was it possible to shift the frame buffer to the XDR ram as the FlexIO allowed for 20GB/s read and 15GB/s write, freeing up the GDDR3 bandwidth for other stuff?
    Hell yes it was possible, it was almost essential in the end, what shifting the framebuffer there also allowed you to do was use the SPU's to do a plethora of image processing from AA, through to ambient occlusion.

    This is just the line of thought I had thinking that the 256GB/s afforded by the edram of the 360 would have given a much greater advantage...
    It took a lot of work for people to use the SPU's in ways to alleviate the GPU diffeences. Post processing as I said above, was done on the 360 gpu, while it was done on SPU on the PS3, there were a lot pre processing work done to alleviate the GPU as well. Everything from pre-culling the vertices (edgeGeom), through to encoding some of what normally would have been calculated in the shaders into extra vertex data info (tangent space calculations etc for bump
    mapping).

    In short if the SPU's could helped, they were used. They used every trick they could to hide the deficiency.


    Also Mynd, is 32MB enough to hold all the frame buffers needed at 1080p? Cause I remember discussion on here that 10MB on the 360 was just slightly too little to allow 720p.
    It's enough, but with deferred rendering and multiple render targets well above a framebuffer and depth, you could easily push beyond it, tiling will undoubtedly return.
    Last edited by mynd; 07-22-2013 at 08:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabjabs View Post
    A double buffered 1080p image with no multi sample anti aliasing will only take up about 16MB of that 32MB. If additional buffers are used they have room to calculate and blend them in the remaining space.
    No-one would use the edram for a front buffer so you would get framebuffer+z-buffer for the 16MB.
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  16. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    I'm so lost right now.
    but it is beautiful , no? the tech guys are going at it and the read is SUPERLATIVE!!!
    Sig courtesy of the_jim


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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    I'm so lost right now.
    Theyre just saying that the framebuffer was moved to the flux capacitor for future proof processing of the resident textures. lol Hell I dont know, I'm lost too. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Hell yes it was possible, it was almost essential in the end, what shifting the framebuffer there also allowed you to do was use the SPU's to do a plethora of image processing from AA, through to ambient occlusion.
    It took a lot of work for people to use the SPU's in ways to alleviate the GPU diffeences. Post processing as I said above, was done on the 360 gpu, while it was done on SPU on the PS3, there were a lot pre processing work done to alleviate the GPU as well. Everything from pre-culling the vertices (edgeGeom), through to encoding some of what normally would have been calculated in the shaders into extra vertex data info (tangent space calculations etc for bump
    mapping).

    In short if the SPU's could helped, they were used. They used every trick they could to hide the deficiency.



    It's enough, but with deferred rendering and multiple render targets well above a framebuffer and depth, you could easily push beyond it, tiling will undoubtedly return.

    I do like how this brings into context what some of the bandwidth requirements will be for the ps4 (and X1). Am I right in thinking that a 4x increase will be worst case or what it generally would be for the jump form a 720 to 1080 frame buffer? If so, taking the Flex IO's 15GB/s write as a base we could be looking at a ~45GB/s (give or take) dedicated to the frame buffer? or does it not scale to that degree?

    If it does though, obviously that leaves plenty of breathing room for the ps4, but would start to get close to filling the X1's DDR3 68GB/s throughput, which might require as much of the frame buffer to be in the esram, which can handle that easy if you go by the 102GB/s, the potential 133GB/s or the super theoretical 192GB/s bandwidth speeds.

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    In all honesty, the ESRam would best be used for caching textures or shadow maps. Tiled rendering has a law of diminishing returns the higher your resolution is in relation to framerate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post
    In all honesty, the ESRam would best be used for caching textures or shadow maps. Tiled rendering has a law of diminishing returns the higher your resolution is in relation to framerate.
    I believe the move engine also comes into play here.

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    I'm not going to quote anyone who said I need to understand some things better, which is their opinion.
    Oh, I get it, and it's that MS started out with a programming model in mind and decided to support it through hardware.
    It looks like it breaks hUMA and certainly won't maximize it on certain operations.
    I know your right, and i've assumed it was going to be the buffer target.
    According to the admittedly leaked unofficial block diagram... the ESRAM doesn't have access to anything aside from the GPU cores.
    So, it's not addressable by CPU resources for any updates. Essentially, any advantages that hUMA memory addressing would bring to your game engine is wacked right there if the ESRAM is your render target cache.
    This is why i've been doubting if hUMA is implemented and if it is whether it matters much.
    SOME studios will eventually have some software models which are totally exploiting hUMA memory access and are by that way simpler and more streamlined. It would also make sense how the Data Move Engines seem to be arranged in the block diagram if the ESRAM is the target render cache.
    One day, in a way unforseen at the moment, SONY studios or someone else will have a gangbuster thing they are about to do and it's not gonna fit, even if it's just because it's massively recursive by it's nature and just works better with a ton of memory available (i can't envision what that is right now, just saying, it usually happens when people have hardware to play with).

    These things are a matter of choices, and, hardware wise, i'll say this. Microsoft's is really good for supporting their GRAINS software model, but i like SONY's better for what it is, an x86 Graphics/Data Synthesizer. Their bet on RAM prices really was ballsy and paid off.
    Last edited by John Willaford; 07-22-2013 at 17:12.

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  23. #471
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    Quote Originally Posted by TEST SUBJECT 83 View Post
    I'm very curious as to how this will pan out.
    Not much has been said on how much Xbox's esRam can really benefit the games graphics.
    MS may be $#@!in up but they aren't stupid, ok they are stupid but they know where to spend money so the embedded ram my surprise people.
    I still think Sony has the edge with a more strait forward design for Dev's.
    The ESRAM doesn't help with graphic QUALITY. It helps to move data around much faster than it would normally move through just the current hardware and the DDR3 memory. It will likely go at least a good ways in to narrowing the throughput gap that would normally exist between the systems using DDR3 and the one using GDDR5. How much remains to be seen as it's not entirely clear yet all the ways that ESRAM can be used.

    I want to say one thing here. This ESRAM thing doesn't mean at all that the XB1 is crippled or has issues. It is another small layer of complexity for developers to deal with but they were doing essentially the same thing with the 360 and WAY more with the PS3.

    The only things I think are going to put the XB1 at a larger disadvantage, and then only in comparison to the PS4, are the weaker GPU, and the requirement of running 3 OS's and multiple apps in the background, which will take percentages of both the CPU and GPU away.

    Still, people who get one will be happy with it. If MS is successful with it's marketing plan, most of the people who buy one wouldn't care IF ALL the games actually ran or looked better on another platform. They'll look great on the XB1 regardless. It's only us tech geeks who notice and run with those differences.

    All you have to decide is what to do with the time give to you....
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  25. #472
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    but it is beautiful , no? the tech guys are going at it and the read is SUPERLATIVE!!!
    Oh is fun to watch when people who know what they are taking about have a good discussion. Even of I don't know what they are talking about.




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  26. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    Theyre just saying that the framebuffer was moved to the flux capacitor for future proof processing of the resident textures. lol Hell I dont know, I'm lost too. lol
    I still think those resident textures to make an application for full residency.

    #IndieStation4 and proud of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by admartian View Post
    I still think those resident textures to make an application for full residency.
    But they have to apply for temporary residency until the paperwork goes through. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Not sure what you're trying to say there lef, but the fetch rate, 2 triangles per clock, is exactly the same. Assuming all the info we have is correct. They both are the same throughput. How they paint that triangle can be vastly different however.
    I know that this is one subject that we will have to wait til Anandtech can tear one of these things apart to get an answer to, but it will boil down to whether this is truly a matter of apples to apples or if there is something to the rumor that this is a Bonaire vs Pitcairn generation ahead of us.

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