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  1. #226
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    If your computer isn't using a lot of RAM for suspend, that means that you're not using up a lot of RAM while your computer is running. Suspend should be using about the same amount of RAM you were using.

    EDIT: I'm sure a large chunk is used for the recording. It might be more as well. I don't know. Recording does take up a lot of RAM. But the resume function has to be a big part of it as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    If your computer isn't using a lot of RAM for suspend, that means that you're not using up a lot of RAM while your computer is running. Suspend should be using about the same amount of RAM you were using.

    EDIT: I'm sure a large chunk is used for the recording. It might be more as well. I don't know. Recording does take up a lot of RAM. But the resume function has to be a big part of it as well.
    True, I didn't factor in having a game running
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    Holy Hell WOW!

    my thread is still going strong.
    ALL 3RD PARTY MULTIPLATFORM GAMES WILL BE SUPERIOR ON PS4 NOW AND IN THE FUTURE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Here's some developer talk.
    http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/09/...mpared-by-devs

    Note, like i've said, the GDDR5 kills the XBONE but, the small 32MB ESRAM would be good for COMPUTE FUNCTIONS...
    Both Sony and MS made the best of a bad situation. GDDR5 is terrible for compute functions (relative to the bandwidth) but is great for feeding huge data streams to these chips. DDR3 is great for random compute stuff but doesn't have the bandwidth to feed a GPU to full capacity. Both Sony and MS have done their best to make these systems perform well.

    What I'm saying is don't expect a huge advantage either way, Sony does have the lead it's just not astoundingly big.

    Note this passage

    "The Xbox One does have some advantages over the PS4 however, with one dev explaining, "Let’s say you are using procedural generation or raytracing via parametric surfaces – that is, using a lot of memory writes and not much texturing or ALU – Xbox One will be likely be faster." "

    Not so many games won't have TEXTURING.... so, that was a best example backhanded compliment, but, it means while they are loading things slower from RAM they can hopefully get some things done fast offscreen using some geometry only based operations, though, it means you have to keep shuffling things through that ESRAM, not that you necessarily want to, at least it's there.
    What they mean is that function of the pipeline is faster, texturing will be done in another pass.

    I see people trying to make the ESRAM into a huge inconvenience but from what I've heard from people working with X1 it is practically a non issue. The benefits out weigh the penelties.

  5. Likes mynd wishes they had posted this first.
  6. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabjabs View Post
    Both Sony and MS made the best of a bad situation. GDDR5 is terrible for compute functions (relative to the bandwidth) but is great for feeding huge data streams to these chips. DDR3 is great for random compute stuff but doesn't have the bandwidth to feed a GPU to full capacity. Both Sony and MS have done their best to make these systems perform well.

    What I'm saying is don't expect a huge advantage either way, Sony does have the lead it's just not astoundingly big.



    What they mean is that function of the pipeline is faster, texturing will be done in another pass.

    I see people trying to make the ESRAM into a huge inconvenience but from what I've heard from people working with X1 it is practically a non issue. The benefits out weigh the penelties.
    from what you've heard? because if you're talking about hearsay then they just said that ESRAM was a huge inconvenience.

    PS4 may not have a huge advantage but about 50% more power is pretty considerable. no?

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    From what I heard I mean aquitaintences in the industry. I haven't heard anything bad from either platforms, the ESRAM just isn't a huge issue. I also think that the 50% performance thing is hugely overstated and is purely GPU related, it looks more wishful thinking than a real world advantage. I have always said Ps4 has the speed advantage it's not not as big as most are hoping for. This is the single closest generation in terms of performance we have ever had.

  8. #232
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    So we are supposed to believe what you heard and disregard what the developers in the article are saying? Gotchu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    when you said 110MB, i was going to say BS but then i read "terminal" so i took a deep breath. Yea i get what you mean. sure. not to mention, PS4 should not need half the stuff desktops OSs do but then again, there are things about the PS4 OS that PCs don't need or ever would need to utilize.

    Nope, terminal is just an app that runs along with the other stuff, so a standard "windowed" environment. See lower right of pic for memory usage on fresh boot.
    Fresh boot Screenshot - 09152013 - 11:11:26 AM.jpg

    Think about the instant resume feature for instance, you need to reserve a lot of RAM on any PC for that. not hibernate, instant resume...sort of like sleep mode.

    <snip>

    it's not insane to have 3GB but it's insane to have that much "needed"...a lot of that might just be caching.
    I suppose the video caching would stay memory resident so the hard drive remains free for game loading. Kinda sucks the tubers and social nuts are gimping performance just to stay connected and share every miniscule bit of their gaming lives.
    Last edited by Univac; 09-15-2013 at 23:17. Reason: spelling

  11. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flasheart View Post
    What distro are you using? that's a lot more memory usage than I use under similar load.
    The desktop is 64bit xubuntu-based Voyager Linux (french distro). I have all that running plus app/processes like remote viewing client, vnc server, notes, weather, synapse, skippy-xd, conky, media server, plus some other stuff I'm not remembering I'm sure. XFCE was never a light distro, but was/is considered medium-weight. So yeah, the buntu base is a little chunky.

    So with all that going (like to hear your setup), I'd like to know why Sony needs 3.5 GB ram reserved. Maybe we will finally hear something closer to launch - or not. Sony could deem this as something we don't need to know - to prevent a mass exodus to pc gaming. lol

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Univac; 09-15-2013 at 23:21. Reason: clarify some jumbled nonsense I wrote

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    Quote Originally Posted by Univac View Post
    The desktop is 64bit xubuntu-based Voyager Linux (french distro). I have all that running plus app/processes like remote viewing client, vnc server, notes, weather, synapse, skippy-xd, conky, media server, plus some other stuff I'm not remembering I'm sure. XFCE was never a light distro, but as considered medium-weight. So yeah, the buntu base is a little chunky.

    So with all that going (like to hear your setup), It's to think of a reason why Sony needs 3.5 GB ram reserved. Maybe will finally hear something closer to launch - or not. Sony could deem this as something we don't need to know - to prevent a mass exodus to pc gaming. lol

    Cheers.
    Ok, can't do a direct comparison but on my Gentoo 64bit setup with kde-4.10.5 I've got firefox, vlc (with video playing), dolphin file manager, kate text editor, nomacs image viewer, k3b disk burner and transmission running and I'm using 875 megabytes.
    What surprised me was that you use more than twice what I do just on a clean boot to tty.
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  13. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flasheart View Post
    Ok, can't do a direct comparison but on my Gentoo 64bit setup with kde-4.10.5 I've got firefox, vlc (with video playing), dolphin file manager, kate text editor, nomacs image viewer, k3b disk burner and transmission running and I'm using 875 megabytes.
    What surprised me was that you use more than twice what I do just on a clean boot to tty.
    The buntus are fatter generally, but yeah, just have a lot of stuff loading so I don't mind the 350 MB load on startup. Voyager team also adds some gnome stuff. The same computer using win7 was 1.2 GB to desktop.

    Back on topic: Based on our experiences, PS4 OS should come in lighter; we can only assume it's the video capture.
    Last edited by Univac; 09-15-2013 at 18:07. Reason: on topic

  14. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabjabs View Post
    From what I heard I mean aquitaintences in the industry. I haven't heard anything bad from either platforms, the ESRAM just isn't a huge issue. I also think that the 50% performance thing is hugely overstated and is purely GPU related, it looks more wishful thinking than a real world advantage. I have always said Ps4 has the speed advantage it's not not as big as most are hoping for. This is the single closest generation in terms of performance we have ever had.
    Well that's just my point, it's hearsay. You're saying this, they're saying that. So other than the GPU, there's no compute advantage? There's no RAM advantage? It's not easier to develop for? ESRAM may not be a huge issue but other than some dev complaining slightly about the CPU, I have not read anything from devs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Univac View Post
    Nope, terminal is just an app that runs along with the other stuff, so a standard "windowed" environment. See lower right of pic for memory usage on fresh boot.
    Fresh boot Screenshot - 09152013 - 11:11:26 AM.jpg
    i'm not doubting you, my netbook runs at 70MB debian 7.

    I suppose the video caching would stay memory resident so the hard drive remains free for game loading. Kinda sucks the tubers and social nuts are gimping performance just to stay conneted and share every miniscule bit of their gaming lives.
    you're the first person to share this view with me. no one else is getting that gamers are paying for social gamers.

    what i will say though, if it's there, and free, i'll dive in. i've tried to do it a few times but i never got into it because it was a hassle. this will make the console sell better too and i guess we should expect this moving forward...everything's been about the social gamers in the recent years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Univac View Post
    The desktop is 64bit xubuntu-based Voyager Linux (french distro). I have all that running plus app/processes like remote viewing client, vnc server, notes, weather, synapse, skippy-xd, conky, media server, plus some other stuff I'm not remembering I'm sure. XFCE was never a light distro, but as considered medium-weight. So yeah, the buntu base is a little chunky.
    hmmm never heard of it but then again i'm only concerned with light distros as it has to run on my netbook that's slower than Pentium 3.

    So with all that going (like to hear your setup), It's to think of a reason why Sony needs 3.5 GB ram reserved. Maybe will finally hear something closer to launch - or not. Sony could deem this as something we don't need to know - to prevent a mass exodus to pc gaming. lol

    Cheers.
    i don't think they'll tell us and i don't think it will matter much. like me, i was pissed because i do understand specs and i do understand the consequences but i gave it a thought and while it'd be nice to go PC again, overall a console feels much better as my family can utilize it as well...like my 3 year old loves the PS3 and can navigate through the menus easy + can play shooters well.

  15. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    hmmm never heard of it but then again i'm only concerned with light distros as it has to run on my netbook that's slower than Pentium 3.
    I hear ya. I run plain xubuntu on my 5 year old netbook. Works well, better than XFCE or Mate Mint. Had been using Debian Squeeze on the desktop but got that ext4 bug which ate some apps. Was most annoyed how they backported a bug into stable.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i don't think they'll tell us and i don't think it will matter much. like me, i was pissed because i do understand specs and i do understand the consequences but i gave it a thought and while it'd be nice to go PC again, overall a console feels much better as my family can utilize it as well...like my 3 year old loves the PS3 and can navigate through the menus easy + can play shooters well.
    Agreed. I gave up pc gaming long ago. I love just putting in a disc, knowing it's going to run. No upgrades, settings to manage - very kid and living room friendly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Univac View Post
    I hear ya. I run plain xubuntu on my 5 year old netbook. Works well, better than XFCE or Mate Mint. Had been using Debian Squeeze on the desktop but got that ext4 bug which ate some apps. Was most annoyed how they backported a bug into stable.
    I would put squeeze + openbox or archbang on a netbook. it will run much faster.

    i have tried all sorts of desktops and even the LXDE is slightly slower than the openbox. i love arch linux though. i'd rather put arch on my netbook and put on openbox from there. right now i have debian because for some reason the latest 3.10 linux image breaks my system (can't do anything on it once installed, no internet, can't even use general commands...it's like everything gets wiped out).

    Agreed. I gave up pc gaming long ago. I love just putting in a disc, knowing it's going to run. No upgrades, settings to manage - very kid and living room friendly.
    yup. i was getting tired of not having MMOs on the PS3 though but now with the PS4, that is going to change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    I would put squeeze + openbox or archbang on a netbook. it will run much faster.

    i have tried all sorts of desktops and even the LXDE is slightly slower than the openbox. i love arch linux though. i'd rather put arch on my netbook and put on openbox from there. right now i have debian because for some reason the latest 3.10 linux image breaks my system (can't do anything on it once installed, no internet, can't even use general commands...it's like everything gets wiped out).
    lxde is openbox, just preconfigured and with a few associated programs.

    tbh I had squeeze with compiz as a standalone window manager (which believe it or not, on it's own is really really fast, as fast as openbox [I'm serious]), with lxpanel, cairo-dock and a conky all loaded fron .xinitrc on my acer aspire one d250. I spent a couple of years tracking down and applying every speed tweak I could find, from turning off everything I could afford to with sysv-rc-conf to paralellising my rc script starts, preloading with e4rat, tiny custom 4mb kernel, all on an ssd and gentoo with kde out of the box and with a few selected use flags and gcc flags, is a little faster on an ordinary hdd. It wouldn't surprise me if arch was too.

    Anyway, am I the only one whose first distro was yellowdog on a phat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flasheart View Post
    What surprised me was that you use more than twice what I do just on a clean boot to tty.
    Forgot to mention that I have swappiness turned down to nothing even on the netbook so I use more ram than a standard config. Don't need to swap; standard linux use just never gets as piggy as windows, in my experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord flasheart View Post
    Anyway, am I the only one whose first distro was yellowdog on a phat?
    Nope. Redhat in the office late 90s and Mandrake for home usage. Got sick of dependencies and kitchen sink approach of the rpm crows back then. I mean, really. How many print servers did they need to install by default? Apparently all of them back then. Five or six text editors; just a bunch of dumb stuff. Went deb/gtk based and never looked back.

    On topic: So Sony can take advantage of all this optimization - the Unix way of doing things. They will learn that much memory reservation is not needed. This ain't Microsft Windows!
    Last edited by Univac; 09-15-2013 at 23:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord flasheart View Post
    lxde is openbox, just preconfigured and with a few associated programs.
    lxde is technically openbox with a window manager. if you want to go lighter, you don't have to install anything other than openbox. you don't get to have a desktop that way but it's also lighter and faster.

    tbh I had squeeze with compiz as a standalone window manager (which believe it or not, on it's own is really really fast, as fast as openbox [I'm serious]), with lxpanel, cairo-dock and a conky all loaded fron .xinitrc on my acer aspire one d250. I spent a couple of years tracking down and applying every speed tweak I could find, from turning off everything I could afford to with sysv-rc-conf to paralellising my rc script starts, preloading with e4rat, tiny custom 4mb kernel, all on an ssd and gentoo with kde out of the box and with a few selected use flags and gcc flags, is a little faster on an ordinary hdd. It wouldn't surprise me if arch was too.
    interesting, i didn't know you could put on your own custom 4mb kernel, what is that like? i wonder if i can benefit from this.

    but yea, arch is awesome. i just love how simple it is. pacman is awesome, say if you wanted to install just the excel equivalent from libreoffice, it would let you choose it. whereas on the apt-get, you have to specify. also pacman shows you 'optional' dependencies as you download packages, which apt-get doesn't and this can be useful sometimes. it's just a lot cleaner when you use pacman because it lets you delete everything that originally downloaded as a dependency, apt-get doesn't do that...but aptitude does, however aptitude sometimes confuses me.

    Anyway, am I the only one whose first distro was yellowdog on a phat?
    nope, my first linux was also on the phat. i hated it though, it was cool but not practical and to my knowledge, they didn't have flashplugin back then. so pretty much pointless for someone casual like myself. it was still fun installing it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Univac View Post
    Forgot to mention that I have swappiness turned down to nothing even on the netbook so I use more ram than a standard config. Don't need to swap; standard linux use just never gets as piggy as windows, in my experience.
    i haven't tried swappiness in a while. is it good on a 1GB computer?

    Nope. Redhat in the office late 90s and Mandrake for home usage. Got sick of dependencies and kitchen sink approach of the rpm crows back then. I mean, really. How many print servers did they need to install by default? Apparently all of them back then. Five or six text editors; just a bunch of dumb stuff. Went deb/gtk based and never looked back.
    wow lol crazy.

    On topic:
    So Sony can take advantage of all this optimization - the Unix way of doing things. They will learn that much memory reservation is not needed. This ain't Microsft Windows!
    let's hope so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Univac View Post
    Forgot to mention that I have swappiness turned down to nothing even on the netbook so I use more ram than a standard config. Don't need to swap; standard linux use just never gets as piggy as windows, in my experience.



    Nope. Redhat in the office late 90s and Mandrake for home usage. Got sick of dependencies and kitchen sink approach of the rpm crows back then. I mean, really. How many print servers did they need to install by default? Apparently all of them back then. Five or six text editors; just a bunch of dumb stuff. Went deb/gtk based and never looked back.

    On topic: So Sony can take advantage of all this optimization - the Unix way of doing things. They will learn that much memory reservation is not needed. This ain't Microsft Windows!
    I don't use swap either and after a log in I'm only using 47 mb.

    Yeah hopefully sony can whittle that reservation down a lot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    lxde is technically openbox with a window manager. if you want to go lighter, you don't have to install anything other than openbox. you don't get to have a desktop that way but it's also lighter and faster.
    openbox is the window manager.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    interesting, i didn't know you could put on your own custom 4mb kernel, what is that like? i wonder if i can benefit from this.
    You just have to configure and recompile from source. I'm surprised that isn't part of the arch install.
    You can tune it to make your system a little snappier in general, what you benefit most from removing all the options you don't need is a big speed up of the first stage of your boot process because the kernel image is so smaill it hardly takes any time to decompress and then load. One of my laptops (2.2ghz celeron 900) boots to log in in five secs, startx loads kde in another five. Probably could boot a little quicker if I switched to systemd but I can't be bothered, openrc is a lot easier to use and plenty fast for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    but yea, arch is awesome. i just love how simple it is. pacman is awesome, say if you wanted to install just the excel equivalent from libreoffice, it would let you choose it. whereas on the apt-get, you have to specify. also pacman shows you 'optional' dependencies as you download packages, which apt-get doesn't and this can be useful sometimes. it's just a lot cleaner when you use pacman because it lets you delete everything that originally downloaded as a dependency, apt-get doesn't do that...but aptitude does, however aptitude sometimes confuses me.
    I didn't know that, that's very cool. Even portage doesn't allow that by default, I'm sure you could do it with a little fiddling though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    nope, my first linux was also on the phat. i hated it though, it was cool but not practical and to my knowledge, they didn't have flashplugin back then. so pretty much pointless for someone casual like myself. it was still fun installing it though.
    I put yellodog on mine just so I could use 16bit emulators. was fun till they took it away. Still annoyed by that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i haven't tried swappiness in a while. is it good on a 1GB computer?
    People say if you have four gigs you don't need swap on a desktop, personally I think you're fine without it if you have two.
    One might be stretching it a bit, maybe turn it down to 10 or even five rather than 0.

    Sorry to the board for dragging the thread so off topic but I can't send pm's yet.
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