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  1. #1
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    John Carmack:Kinect is fundamentally a poor interaction





    Legendary Developer and id Software Technical Director John Carmack had a lot of good things to say about both next generation consoles during his keynote at Quakecom 2013, but he had a lot less love to share about Microsoft’s Kinect, criticizing his latency, framerate and mode of interaction with the user.

    Microsoft is putting a lot behind things like Kinect that…you know…I’m still not really sold on Kinect. I recognize that what I need and desire as a game developer or what I use the technology for might not cover the broad consumer base that they’re looking for, so it’s their play to make, but I think Kinect still has some fundamental limitations with the latency and the framerate on it.
    When you interact with Kinect some of the standard interaction there like position and hold, waiting for different things…it’s fundamentally a poor interaction and one way that I look at it is…I used to give Apple a lot of grief about the one-button mouse when anybody working with the mouse really wanted more buttons. Kinect is sort of like a zero-button mouse with a lot of latency on it.
    (Editor’s note: here the audience exploded in applause and cheering while Carmack tried hard not to laugh, can’t say I don’t see why…)
    You move around and you select something, but because you can’t snap your finger at it and make something happen…you have to wait for a time period or have some other trigger section there… Things like the PS Move where you’re maneuvering around and you actually got buttons on it, or something like the Razer Hydra, where you got position tracking but also buttons to click, I think have some fundamental advantages.
    It’s possible that, as we get finer and finer grain control of the tracking, maybe you can start telling intentional little taps of the finger in virtual space, and that will help some of it, but I’m still not completely sold on it.
    Kinect as far as waving hands around and moving things, it is still at least a directly proportional user interface, like a mouse, where you can say “I’m moving six inches here and it’s going to be proportional that six inches of moving” which puts it in a better category than analog thumbsticks, where you’re integrating your motion over time, but you’re not directly manipulating things, bcause you’re moving your hand here, but your watching the screen over there to see what’s happening.
    (Editor’s note: have fun deciphering the next paragraph, as Carmack went down the tangent a little bit here…)
    It’s possible, if you had a viewer relative game, if you were using Kinect as sort of you social party game, or multiple people are playing, and at the same time when you are looking at the screen and you track where the viewers eyes was, and you knew where their hand was in perspective space, you could then sorta do…OK i’m touching that, i’m moving that over there. You would still have all the latency issues to deal with there, but it would be a much more direct interface.

    Things like body tracking will have more benefit when you got things like a virtual reality system where you can see your rendered virtual hand interacting with rendered virtual things, so it’s a technology that absolutely has a future, and Microsoft is pushing it hard, they’ve done a lot of excellent research with it, but I’m still not completely convinced that that’s the cornerstone of the next gaming platform.
    hard to disagree with Carmack here.Microsoft still has a lot to demonstrate with Kinect, especially due to the fact that with the Xbox One it’ll be mandatory. If you want to check out the whole Keynote for yourself (it’s extremely interesting, so it’s worth about three hours of your life) you can find it in the playlist below. The part reported in this post is at the 25:40 mark in the first video.



    http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/08/...al-advantages/
    Last edited by Omar; 08-04-2013 at 02:09.

  2. #2
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    Lol this is how a comment/statement that's not under nda looks like

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    Forza 5, Fifa 14, Battlefield 4 & Watchdogs - The Perfect Launch Line Up!

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    Kinect is fundamentally poor when you compare it with something that has buttons...lol He also talks a little about xbox-one and ps4 capabilities are essentially the same. He did mention still being under NDA though. He starts at about 15:07.


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    Yep, hands free has a lot of limits, which is why Sony went from hands free only to having something you can hold.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDug13
    I want Naughty Dog to explore new game genres, not regurgitate cinematic corridor shooters for another generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronSOLDIER View Post
    Yep, hands free has a lot of limits, which is why Sony went from hands free only to having something you can hold.
    Well, they really didn't have much of a choice.

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    his opinion is invalid 1) he has not played a game with Kinect 2.0 yet. 2) Move integration has been horrible so far. 3) while it may be true in theory, it's not in practicality.

    theoretically Move should bring a better experience but honestly i don't think so. i'd much rather have hands free than this. i can't combine move with my DS3 but i can combine Kinect with a controller.

    Kinect 2.0 has much more potential than the Move or the PS4 Eye.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    He also talks a little about xbox-one and ps4 capabilities are essentially the same. He did mention still being under NDA though. He starts at about 15:07.

    point?
    Quote Originally Posted by AaronSOLDIER View Post
    Yep, hands free has a lot of limits, which is why Sony went from hands free only to having something you can hold.
    yea Sony went from hands free to buttons to now both. obviously they see something good about kinect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    point?
    calm down there mr. moderator. I just posted video so people could see it without having to read the article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Well, they really didn't have much of a choice.
    Who? If you're implying that the EyeToy on PS2 was a flop you are mistaken.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDug13
    I want Naughty Dog to explore new game genres, not regurgitate cinematic corridor shooters for another generation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    calm down there mr. moderator. I just posted video so people could see it without having to read the article.
    didn't mean to seem upset there. i'm just wondering what you meant there. we know about that from another thread. are you saying that his opinions don't hold weight?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronSOLDIER View Post
    Who? If you're implying that the EyeToy on PS2 was a flop you are mistaken.
    Sorry dude, but eyetoy was mess. There really weren't a lot of reasons to run out and buy one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    didn't mean to seem upset there. i'm just wondering what you meant there. we know about that from another thread. are you saying that his opinions don't hold weight?
    I'm not saying anything. I just posted the video so people can see what he said since thread titles can be a bit misleading.
    Last edited by Sub-stance1; 08-04-2013 at 02:43.

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    LOL the mic is rubbing against his stubble

    I like John's Keynote speeches, learn a few things.

    "Kinect is sort of like a Zero button mouse..."

    The video is at the link if you click it. He starts talking about kinect around 25:40.
    Last edited by keefy; 08-04-2013 at 03:13.

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    The proof is in the pudding. I am still not sold on Kinect 2.0. But we will see how they do over the next year with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Sorry dude, but eyetoy was mess. There really weren't a lot of reasons to run out and buy one.
    Well that's your opinion but just because you don't see value in something does not make it a flop. Sony supported it well into the PS3s life (and no not just producing them, but actually making games for it).

    I bet you also see the PS Move and PS Home as flops too? Like so many people on here, just because you don't use them doesn't mean other people don't, and in PS Move's case, selling over 10 million, or is PS Home's case with over 2 million daily logins, they are far from flops.

    I guess in that case every single Forza game is also a flop not managing to beat it's competition in sales.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDug13
    I want Naughty Dog to explore new game genres, not regurgitate cinematic corridor shooters for another generation.

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    i'm already sold on kinect 2.0. this is one thing i would want Sony to do like MS is doing but i know most would disagree with me.

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    Since the beginning there has always been a method of physical input; a joystick, mouse, controller, keyboard...trying to move on from this is no easy feat. I dont think the world is ready for kinec right now...it still wants physical inputs and games are too complex to play them with a "buttonless mouse" but kinect 2 is gonna have some badass uses this gen I'm sure.

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    call me old school, but i don't like motion controls at all. not accurate enough



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    Quote Originally Posted by JDizzleNO1 View Post
    call me old school, but i don't like motion controls at all. not accurate enough
    Move and SharpShooter got me into FPS games. That was such a badass experience, like being back at the arcades...and pulling a trigger to fire the gun was really satisfying. Outside of that I didn't use Move too much. I think motion controls are a nice additive experience but to center your console on them is quite a daring move.

    In terms of home entertainment I love what Kinect does. I was super chuffed with what I saw at E3 last year with the voice control of media etc. I like the minority reportness of it and I know this gen that's going to be elevated. But for gaming...I want and need buttons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i'm already sold on kinect 2.0. this is one thing i would want Sony to do like MS is doing but i know most would disagree with me.
    People usually forget this tech was Sony's on the ps2 then they did it on the ps3 not the caliber of MS but they had the eye that captured motion
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    Quote Originally Posted by dondidit View Post
    People usually forget this tech was Sony's on the ps2 then they did it on the ps3 not the caliber of MS but they had the eye that captured motion
    well i mean, technically it's also on the PS4 but what I mean is, and like you said, the caliber of what MS is doing...Sony just hasn't done it to that extent.

    when i say that, i specifically mean that MS has to balls to make it mandatory to have the console. people see negatives about that, i see positives.

    basically PS4 eye is neutered out the door...the only redemption is that since MS will bring in more support, it would be easy to translate that over to the PS4 (with obviously less accuracy) without much effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronSOLDIER View Post
    Well that's your opinion but just because you don't see value in something does not make it a flop. Sony supported it well into the PS3s life (and no not just producing them, but actually making games for it.

    I bet you also see the PS Move and PS Home as flops too? Like so many people on here, just because you don't use them doesn't mean other people don't, and in PS Move's case, selling over 10 million, or is PS Home's case with over 2 million daily logins, they are far from flops.

    I guess in that case every single Forza game is also a flop not managing to beat it's competition in sales.
    I don't really see them as flops but neither eyetoy, ps home, nor ps eye was used to their full potential, and I would say they were all a bit disappointing.. As for move, it really had lackluster support for titles built specifically for it. It looks like it's gonna be a repeat of that too since sony is being really coy about the ps4 cam. Its a few months from launch and we hardly know anything about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I don't really see them as flops but neither eyetoy, ps home, nor ps eye was used to their full potential, and I would say they were all a bit disappointing.. As for move, it really had lackluster support for titles built specifically for it. It looks like it's gonna be a repeat of that too since sony is being really coy about the ps4 cam. Its a few months from launch and we hardly know anything about it.
    To be fair we dont know alot of things yet, that should not translate into Sony being coy.
    We still have 2 HUGE gaming shows to come.

    Also there are way more important things anyway than motion controls, which is why it is an optional accesory!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by roy8846 View Post
    To be fair we dont know alot of things yet, that should not translate into Sony being coy.
    We still have 2 HUGE gaming shows to come.

    Also there are way more important things anyway than motion controls, which is why it is an optional accesory!!
    That is true but I'm sure sony wants just more than the Killzone and Infamous crowd.

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    the problem with Kinect and something i hope they have fixed with 2.0 is the waiting for things to happen with it not having a button press.

    hold your shaky hand (or thats what kinect thinks i have) over a menu selection/go icon and wait for it to accept thats what you want is a novelty that soon becomes anoying for me when i want the game to move on already. a button press would solve that problem straight away, unless Kinect 2.0 is upto understanding a gesture of you moving a finger as if to push a button.

    sure, voice control would also fix it by simply saying say... "play". but then MS would also have had to fix the voice controls in that it will undestand what i'm saying on the 1st go, not the 2nd or 3rd etc.

    soon find out for sure.
    Last edited by Yungstar 2006; 08-06-2013 at 19:47.

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