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  1. #1
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    AMD: PS4 has hUMA - Much more powerful than were lead to believe *** Confirmed! ***

    Gamescom: Playstation 4 bietet Unified Memory, Xbox One nicht
    21.08.2013 13:09




    Die Playstation 4 unterstützt laut einem AMD-Manager Unified Memory, die Xbox One nicht.Obwohl in den kommenden Spielkonsolen Xbox One und Playstation 4 jeweils AMD-Hardware steckt, wird nur die Playstation 4 die hUMA-Technik für einen gemeinsamen Speicherbereich unterstützen. Dies erklärte AMDs Senior Product Marketing Manager Marc Diana gegenüber c't auf der Gamescom. Dies dürfte die 3D-Performance der Playstation 4 noch viel weiter vor die Xbox One setzen, als zum derzeitigen Stand angenommen. Schließlich sieht AMD den heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access als Schlüssel für den gewaltigen Anstieg der Leistungsfähigkeit von Kombiprozessoren. Auch AMDs künftige Desktop-Kombiprozessoren der Kaveri-Serie setzen auf hUMA.

    Hinter den Kulissen konnte c't auch von Entwicklern inoffizielle Stimmen einfangen, die die 3D-Performance der Playstation 4 sehr weit vor jener der Xbox One sehen.
    Bereits im April erklärte AMD-Manager Phil Rogers gegenüber c't, dass hUMA speziell die 3D-Rendering-Performance beschleunigen soll: "Spieleentwickler wollten seit einigen Jahren extrem große Texturen nutzen, mussten sich bis dato aber einer ganze Reihe von Tricks bedienen, Teile großer Texturen in kleinere Texturen zu verpacken. Denn heute muss eine Textur zunächst in einem separaten Bereich des physischen Speichers liegen, bevor die GPU sie verarbeiten darf. Mit hUMA werden Anwendungen viel effizienter mit Texturen umgehen können." Mehr Details zu hUMA will AMD auf seiner Entwicklerkonferenz im November preisgeben. (mfi)


    http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldu...t-1939716.html

    So, an AMD spokesperson has finally revealed that PS4 fully supports hUMA. Apparently, it's the first console to do this.

    UPDATE: AMD is moving to redact statements made at GamesCom about the memory architecture of the rival consoles (very likely with a healthy nudge from MS legal). CONFIRMS statements were, in fact, made.
    http://www.nowgamer.com/news/2052820...omparison.html

    AMD spokesperson, did in fact state that PS4 has hUMA and XBone does not...
    ​Confirmed.

    AMD spokesperson stating large performance gap between systems..
    Confirmed.

    AMD now being gag-ordered on the architecture of both PS4 and XBone from the fallout..
    Confirmed.
    Last edited by Lefein; 08-22-2013 at 18:07.

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    PS4 is actually a lot more powerful (AMD Engineers explain)

    If that's true, I want folding at home back
    Also, that last pic, is that Ryse? If yes: that's a xbox one exclusive

    Follow me on Twitter: @DaanvMonsjou

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    Quote Originally Posted by AverageNinja View Post
    If that's true, I want folding at home back
    Also, that last pic, is that Ryse? If yes: that's a xbox one exclusive
    Agreed! Imagine the folding power with the PS4! Yes that is Ryse, good looking game, but still graphically inferior looking at the screen shots!

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    This also confirms that the CPU in the XBone is also generationally behind the one in PS4. Memory controllers on AMD processors are not off-die like they are on Intel.

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    Wait wait wait..

    So the Xbox One isn't hUMA? I thought that Mynd and co were saying that it -was-, and he was even stating that it could potentially be superior to what PS4 has.

    Also, how do we know the Xbone CPU is 'generationally' behind? They're both using Jaguar.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 08-21-2013 at 13:56.


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    What is being said here doesn't make much sense, I'm guessing this is a PR guy that has his idea's mixed up or translated poorly.

    X1 uses a UMA system as well. Both system have identical memory management system.

    This also confirms that the CPU in the XBone is also generationally behind the one in PS4. Memory controllers on AMD processors are not off-die like they are on Intel.


    Both use identical CPU cores at identical clock rates, there are no differences on that front. X1 can potentially run it's CPU more efficiently because of the lower latency of it's RAM but it's still to be seen how much of a difference this will mean in real world applications.

    We also haven't seen how the X1's move engines will improve the performance on the chips. I'm not saying that X1 is more powerful I'm just saying it's still an unknown just how much the performance difference is between the systems in real world use.

    If that's true, I want folding at home back


    Would be
    interesting to see, would primarily have to be GPU powered since the CPU in PS4 is vastly inferior to PS3's Cell at Folding functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabjabs View Post
    What is being said here doesn't make much sense, I'm guessing this is a PR guy that has his idea's mixed up or translated poorly.

    X1 uses a UMA system as well. Both system have identical memory management system.

    [/COLOR]

    Both use identical CPU cores at identical clock rates, there are no differences on that front. X1 can potentially run it's CPU more efficiently because of the lower latency of it's RAM but it's still to be seen how much of a difference this will mean in real world applications.

    We also haven't seen how the X1's move engines will improve the performance on the chips. I'm not saying that X1 is more powerful I'm just saying it's still an unknown just how much the performance difference is between the systems in real world use.



    Would be
    interesting to see, would primarily have to be GPU powered since the CPU in PS4 is vastly inferior to PS3's Cell at Folding functions.
    If there is a redaction on the claim, I will certainly post it and won't shy away from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post
    If there is a redaction on the claim, I will certainly post it and won't shy away from it.
    I'm just assuming here that it was misquoted. The hUMA system that AMD has been working on is more in relation to the PC APU's and unifying the entire memory system into a single pool something PC's simply haven't been able to do until now. Both X1 and Ps4 are built on this new system, Ps4 is still more powerful that's for sure it just feels like the explanation that is being given is incorrect.

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    For amd to say this is cool.
    well we knew we had the better gpu, otherwise both radeons would cost the same x1 fan boys.
    We knew ddr5 is better than the ddr3.
    Now this huma helps the gpu and cpu tasks better. (Not getting into it techniqually)

    unless microsoft fans want to deny this aswell. basically saying AMD wasted there money on implimenting this technology and its totally pointless. Which it is not. x1 fans need to get over themselves, pretending not having a stronger gpu, ram and this not making a difference.
    maybe cause they are paying more they are more butthurt. I know i would be if im paying for the weaker console.
    and titanfall is timed exclusive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabjabs View Post
    Both use identical CPU cores at identical clock rates, there are no differences on that front.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but neither side has stated what the clock rate of their CPUs are just yet...

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    We know the clock rate of Ps4 from dev kits and it can actually be calculated from the CPU breakdown shown for Killzone.

    X1 rumoured to be the same clock but it is likely it was increased with the GPU to keep everything in sync.

    As for the GDDR5 vs DDR3. GDDR5 is great in bandwidth which us great for GPU tasks but will slow the CPU thanks to very high latency. X1 will potentially run its CPU more efficiently due to DDR3 being much more suited to the task. How this pans out in the real world has yet to be seen.

    As a whole all they are talking about is that the CPU and GPU can both use the same metro pools to work with each other, something consoles have been doing since the N64.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabjabs View Post
    We know the clock rate of Ps4 from dev kits and it can actually be calculated from the CPU breakdown shown for Killzone.

    X1 rumoured to be the same clock but it is likely it was increased with the GPU to keep everything in sync.

    As for the GDDR5 vs DDR3. GDDR5 is great in bandwidth which us great for GPU tasks but will slow the CPU thanks to very high latency. X1 will potentially run its CPU more efficiently due to DDR3 being much more suited to the task. How this pans out in the real world has yet to be seen.

    As a whole all they are talking about is that the CPU and GPU can both use the same metro pools to work with each other, something consoles have been doing since the N64.
    I just wish they would let the cat out of the bag on all the specs for the system. I am also curious what kind of processor is used for the dedicated audio/video compression that is suppose to be in the machine...guess I will have to wait for the system to release and iFixit to do a full teardown of the PS4!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabjabs View Post
    We know the clock rate of Ps4 from dev kits and it can actually be calculated from the CPU breakdown shown for Killzone.

    X1 rumoured to be the same clock but it is likely it was increased with the GPU to keep everything in sync.

    As for the GDDR5 vs DDR3. GDDR5 is great in bandwidth which us great for GPU tasks but will slow the CPU thanks to very high latency. X1 will potentially run its CPU more efficiently due to DDR3 being much more suited to the task. How this pans out in the real world has yet to be seen.

    As a whole all they are talking about is that the CPU and GPU can both use the same metro pools to work with each other, something consoles have been doing since the N64.
    I think you're confusing things here.

    AMD has provided a few more details about its upcoming Heterogeneous System architecture (HSA), revealing the name of the unified memory system it will be using: Heterogeneous Unified Memory Access (hUMA).

    HSA is AMD's big vision for its future APUs. Like its existing APUs, HSA chips will feature a CPU and GPU on one piece of silicon but the big innovation with HSA is that the two units will now share memory directly, thus hUMA.

    On current AMD and Intel APUs the CPU and GPU have separate memory blocks. So for the GPU to do some processing it requires the appropriate data to be copied from the CPU memory to the GPU memory, and back again once the processing is finished. This creates a severe bottleneck in performance and greatly increases complexity for programmers.

    By unifying the two blocks of memory and allowing the CPU and GPU to directly access the same data the performance overhead of copying all the data is eliminated and programming complexity is greatly reduced.

    AMD highlighted what it sees as the top ten benefits of HSA in a recent presentation:

    • Much easier for programmers
    • No need for special APIs
    • Move CPU multi-core algorithms to the GPU without recoding for absence of coherency
    • Allow finer grained data sharing than software coherency
    • Implement coherency once in hardware, rather than N times in different software stacks
    • Prevent hard to debug errors in application software
    • Operating systems prefer hardware coherency - they do not want the bug reports to the platform
    • Probe filters and directories will maintain power efficiency
    • Full coherency opens the doors to single source, native and managed code programming for heterogeneous platforms
    • Optimal architecture for heterogeneous computing on APUs and SOCs.


    Some of these bullet points are clearly digs at Nvidia's current system for GPU accelerated programming, CUDA, which uses a software layer to interpret simple programmer input and automatically handle the complication of memory management (among other things). HSA shouldn't require this software layer.







    HUMA is essentially just a bit of branding that refers to the single memory address space the company's upcoming HSA APUs will be using. It harks back to the Unified Memory Access nomenclature of early multicore CPUs - where each CPU core started to share the same memory - adding in heterogeneous in reference to HSA.

    HSA isn't just an AMD project, though, it is centred around the HSA Foundation "whose goal is to make it easyto program for parallel computing." The foundation includes such other high profile members as ARM, Qualcomm and Samsung.

    The arrival of HSA is still some way off, with the first AMD chips set to use the architecture expected to arrive early next year. However, the PlayStation 4 is expected to feature an HSA type processor, so we'll see some indication of what we can look forward to when that console arrives in Q4 this year.


    ~http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardwar...memory-acces/1


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    "Although both upcoming game consoles Xbox One and PlayStation 4 are based on AMD hardware, only PlayStation 4 incorporates hUMA [Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access] for supporting a shared memory space. This was explained by AMD's Senior Product Marketing Manager Marc Diana to c't [big German IT magazine] at gamescom"

    this from gaf:

    "
    On a classical system you have a RAM pool and a VRAM pool that are physically speperated. Copying data from one pool to the other creates latency. The GPU is very good ad hiding latency. What it needs most is high bandwidth. The CPU on the other hand is extremely sensitive to latency. The CPU needs extremely low latency to work efficiently. Copying data from the RAM (CPU) to the VRAM (GPU) creates latency, but that's okay for the GPU. Copying data from RAM (CPU) to VRAM (GPU) and back to the RAM (CPU) creates even more latency. It's too much for the CPU. The copying alone takes longer than the computation wich makes this roundtrip highly ineffective.


    Xbox360 and older APUs have a unified RAM. This means that the RAM is no longer physically seperated, but even though it's the same RAM chips, the system still distincts between memory partition for the differenct processors. You still need to copy the data between CPU partition and GPU partition, but this will be much more efficient than copying it between physically seperated pools. But it's still too much latency for a CPU, GPU, CPU roundtrip.


    PS4 will have hUMA wich means that you no longer need a distinction between CPU partition and GPU partition. Both processors can use the same pieces of data at the same time. You don't need to copy stuff and this allows for completely new algorithms that utilize CPU and GPU at the same time. This is interesting since a GPU is very strong, but extremely dumb. A CPU is extremely smart, but very weak. Since you can utilize both processors at the same time for a single task you have a system that is extremely smart and extremely strong at the same time.


    It will allow for an extreme boost for many, many algorithms and parts of algorithms. On top of that it will allow for completely new classes of algorithms. This is a game changer."

    was the stronger console to begin with. However you wanf to twist it, ps4 ---> x1 specs.

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    So this technique of HUMA is specifically for unified memory architectures?
    Not having to copy memory to and from each partition would that also save on memory usage not just latency?

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    Quote Originally Posted by almusmonk View Post
    "Although both upcoming game consoles Xbox One and PlayStation 4 are based on AMD hardware, only PlayStation 4 incorporates hUMA [Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access] for supporting a shared memory space. This was explained by AMD's Senior Product Marketing Manager Marc Diana to c't [big German IT magazine] at gamescom"

    this from gaf:

    "
    On a classical system you have a RAM pool and a VRAM pool that are physically speperated. Copying data from one pool to the other creates latency. The GPU is very good ad hiding latency. What it needs most is high bandwidth. The CPU on the other hand is extremely sensitive to latency. The CPU needs extremely low latency to work efficiently. Copying data from the RAM (CPU) to the VRAM (GPU) creates latency, but that's okay for the GPU. Copying data from RAM (CPU) to VRAM (GPU) and back to the RAM (CPU) creates even more latency. It's too much for the CPU. The copying alone takes longer than the computation wich makes this roundtrip highly ineffective.


    Xbox360 and older APUs have a unified RAM. This means that the RAM is no longer physically seperated, but even though it's the same RAM chips, the system still distincts between memory partition for the differenct processors. You still need to copy the data between CPU partition and GPU partition, but this will be much more efficient than copying it between physically seperated pools. But it's still too much latency for a CPU, GPU, CPU roundtrip.


    PS4 will have hUMA wich means that you no longer need a distinction between CPU partition and GPU partition. Both processors can use the same pieces of data at the same time. You don't need to copy stuff and this allows for completely new algorithms that utilize CPU and GPU at the same time. This is interesting since a GPU is very strong, but extremely dumb. A CPU is extremely smart, but very weak. Since you can utilize both processors at the same time for a single task you have a system that is extremely smart and extremely strong at the same time.


    It will allow for an extreme boost for many, many algorithms and parts of algorithms. On top of that it will allow for completely new classes of algorithms. This is a game changer."

    was the stronger console to begin with. However you wanf to twist it, ps4 ---> x1 specs.
    Perfect description of how hUMA works!

    -=[ PSN ID: Tha_MonkeyClaw ]=-

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    http://hsafoundation.com/
    looks like microsoft wasnt involved at all. Seems like a great move for Sony. Making it a bit more future proof
    agian taken from gaf

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    Now spread chaos! Ign boards need a good kick up there arse, delusional fans saying x1 is stronger since that stupid digital fourdry article. I dont understand why they would pay more for the weaker console. And more paywall too

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    Quote Originally Posted by almusmonk View Post
    Now spread chaos! Ign boards need a good kick up there arse, delusional fans saying x1 is stronger since that stupid digital fourdry article. I dont understand why they would pay more for the weaker console. And more paywall too
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lemming

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    To be honest I am very interested in how this works out for PC as well. I'd get on board with a unified system if I could

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    You calling me a lemming buster lol?. I just want them to be informed this time with real information unlike the whole ram fiasco which was total bs and spread like wildfire and still considered true. Obviously by microsofts shadow government and minions

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Wait wait wait..

    So the Xbox One isn't hUMA? I thought that Mynd and co were saying that it -was-, and he was even stating that it could potentially be superior to what PS4 has.

    Also, how do we know the Xbone CPU is 'generationally' behind? They're both using Jaguar.
    Yes I remember having a good back and forth with Mynd about this. Its nice to get some confirmation on some of the guess work we had. From the whole discussion, we went through how AMD has been slowly implementing features over the APU series to get them to this point. Even if the X1 is using and older gen APU design, or a older feature set with up to date hardware, there are still advantages over traditional RAM pools. One thing i remember reading though all the links mynd posted was that AMD made it possible to do a fake "copy" command, where rather than actually copying and pasting the data to the other pool, it flips a tag or marker, switching control to the CPU or GPU. But with hUMA, that set and potentially others aren't needed.

    But Jabjabs is correct, there is some degree of possible mis-translation or incomplete info here. Though it seems to be coming from some one relatively high up...

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    So this technique of HUMA is specifically for unified memory architectures?
    Not having to copy memory to and from each partition would that also save on memory usage not just latency?
    That is precisely correct.

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    More info:

    The CPU requests do not probe any other non-CPU clients, even if the clients have caches. (For example, the GPU has its own cache hierarchy, but the GPU is not probed by the CPU requests.) Therefore, I/O coherent clients must explicitly flush modified data for any latest-modified copy to become visible to the CPUs and to the other I/O coherent clients.
    ~
    http://www.vgleaks.com/durango-memory-system-overview/


    Does this rule out hUMA for Xbone?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Wait wait wait..

    So the Xbox One isn't hUMA? I thought that Mynd and co were saying that it -was-, and he was even stating that it could potentially be superior to what PS4 has.

    Also, how do we know the Xbone CPU is 'generationally' behind? They're both using Jaguar.
    If I remember correctly he said the Xbone had hUMA and the PS4 didn't

    Here the english source from gaf
    Although both upcoming game consoles Xbox One and PlayStation 4 are based on AMD hardware, only PlayStation 4 incorporates hUMA [Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access] for supporting a shared memory space. This was explained by AMD's Senior Product Marketing Manager Marc Diana to c't [big German IT magazine] at gamescom. This should put the 3D-performance of PlayStation 4 much farther ahead of Xbox One than many have expected so far. AMD sees hUMA as a key element for drastic performance improvements in combined processors. AMD's upcoming Kaveri desktop processors support hUMA as well.

    Behind the scenes, c't could hear from developers that the 3D-performance of PlayStation 4 is very far ahead of Xbox One.

    Back in April, AMD manager Phil Rogers explained to c't that hUMA improves 3D-performance in particular. "Game developers have been eager to use very large textures for years. Until now they had to resort to tricks in order to package parts of larger textures into smaller textures. That is because today a texture has to be located in a special place of physical memory before the GPU can process it. With hUMA, applications can work with textures much more efficiently". AMD will give more details on hUMA at its upcoming developer conference in November.
    I think MS's approach to memory (ie) ESRAM or whatever they using stops hUMA being used because its no longer unified memory
    IT Gods correct me if I'm wrong lol
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    Last edited by TGO; 08-21-2013 at 16:05.

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