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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saigon View Post
    I am just wondering. Is this your interpretation of how the APU system works from your perspective?
    I ask because the chart you provided in a previous post looks to be one of the first path lines of how the APU chipset would work. If that is the case, I am sure AMD along with several other manufacturers within the hUMA Alliance would have developed several better variations to reduce latency within the combo chip set. Also, I didn't read the thread, but you made a statement regarding that the Xbone (I do not use X1 because Comcast already has a device called the X1 that is similar to what MS tried to provide) would have hUMA but the PS4 wouldn't. What I am trying to figure out is how if they use the same architect along with Sony using a newer GPU or should I say a slightly better GPU. And on that, wouldn't the eSRAM interfere with the hUMA configuration. I may be wrong, but I am trying to piece the puzzle together.
    Not my interpretation, the guys who worked on the crew for PS4 lets us in on that one.
    But yes, this is a generational thing, each iteraiton of GPU has us getting closer to HUMA...



    I've said the Xbox one would be better suited to HUMA, because of the fact that it doesn't use a massively fast bus, in fact it technically has the "two" bus system (even if one is just the ESRAM).

    No one really knows for sure, we can only go off leaked documents for the XB One.
    We certainly know from what we have been told by devs and from Cerny, what the PS4 does.
    Last edited by mynd; 08-22-2013 at 07:04.

  2. #77
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    Posted by ElTorro from neogaf:

    "To summarize the evidence so far: we have an article from a respected source, echoing Senior Product Marketing Manager Marc Diana in saying that PS4 implements their hUMA architecture while the XB1 does not. This is followed by the deduction that PS4 will have a significant performance boost over XB1 because of that. It remains unclear what the AMD representative said verbatim. We can only say that c't is as reputable as it gets in the space of German IT publications; that does not make them infallible, of course.

    In addition, Sony is part of the HSA consortium while Microsoft is not. Of course, we don't know the political implications of such a membership which may play a significant role along purely technological reasons.

    Technology-wise, we can say with certainty that PS4 indeed is a hUMA architecture. Everything we have heard since the release from official sources, especially PS4's Onion/Garlic memory bus layout and the volatile tag on cache lines, confirms that. In addition, Sony has actually advertised this fact quite aggressively, beginning with the Havok GPGPU demo at the PS4 reveal.

    We don't know much what the Xbox One does beyond what the leaked documents tell us. And those are ambiguous and not very detailed. At first, it sounds unexpected for it to not support hUMA. Microsoft certainly has implemented a more custom memory system than Sony to manage its DDR3/ESRAM layout, including its DMEs. There is no clear indication about which features of a hUMA architecture might be lacking. Maybe not all memory clients and pools are cache-coherent system wide. The GPU does seem to have to flush its caches when it synchronizes with other clients. However, the article on vgleaks is neither very detailed nor clear, nor do we know if its author recited the original sources correctly. So the relationship between a hUMA feature set and the XB1 is unclear.

    Politics-wise, AMD certainly wants to push hUMA since it is part of its own upcoming end-customer products. This would be reason alone to champion the PS4 independent of what the XB1 does, since AMD won't profit from what Microsoft has done with its memory subsystem.

    Apart from that, developers at gamescom seem to acknowledge anonymously that the PS4 has a clear 3D-performance advantage over the Xbox One which is certainly a result of many factors, not least because of its beefier GPU and its straight-forward, high-bandwidth GDDR5 setup."

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...657221&page=22

    What we knew all along

  3. #78
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    With HUMA or without. I still will get PS4.


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    Nothing we didnt already know, nor does it clarify anything.

    As lef said, time will tell us.

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    So far, the only negative thing I have picked up from Sony's next gen offering is paying for online. I really can't think of anything negative off the top of my head...and tech wise this is no different. I dare say this is far from the end of the story regarding PS4's prowess. Sony's approach to developing its console was flawless...the right man talking to the right people with the goal of making the best and most powerful console...mission accomplished it seems.

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  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    So far, the only negative thing I have picked up from Sony's next gen offering is paying for online. I really can't think of anything negative off the top of my head...and tech wise this is no different. I dare say this is far from the end of the story regarding PS4's prowess. Sony's approach to developing its console was flawless...the right man talking to the right people with the goal of making the best and most powerful console...mission accomplished it seems.
    Yeah, and that is a pretty darn big negative, but I admit that they are atleast trying to soften the blow. It sucks that they had to and did go to this length, but it seems that have even more up their sleeves to make the transition easier. Atleast that's what I gather from what they've been hinting at, something about there being more benefits they'll be mentioning at a later time. So, hopefully, even someone as against an online paywall as I am might be able to accept it. Everything else though is nothing but good news on Sony's end.

  8. #82
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    7 hours ago:
    http://www.3dnews.ru/753215
    PS4 использует передовую архитектуру AMD hUMA, а Xbox One — нет


    22.08.2013 [12:30], Константин Ходаковский
    Согласно данным крупного немецкого ресурса Heise, ссылающегося на маркетингового руководителя AMD Марка Диана (Marc Diana), PlayStation 4 по 3D-производительности гораздо мощнее конкурирующей платформы Xbox One не только за счёт большего числа вычислительных блоков, но и благодаря использованию архитектуры с унифицированным доступом к памяти hUMA (Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access) со стороны CPU и GPU. Sony и ранее говорила, что PS4 использует AMD hUMA, однако предполагалось, что и Xbox One обладает той же технологией.
    В классической вычислительной системе адресное пространство оперативной (RAM) и графической (VRAM) памяти разделено. Копирование данных между ними создаёт задержки, подчас весьма значительные. Для эффективной работы CPU нужны минимальные задержки. Если копирование данных с RAM в VRAM не создаёт больших проблем для GPU, то обратное копирование создаёт подчас такие задержки, что вычисления на CPU подчас происходят быстрее, чем сам процесс копирования. Это делает крайне неэффективными многие вычисления общего назначения с использованием видеоускорителя (GPGPU).
    В Xbox 360 и, похоже, в Xbox One однокристальная система работает с универсальной памятью. Это означает, что графическая и оперативная память физически не разделены, но хотя речь идёт об одних и тех же чипах, система всё равно выделяет отдельное адресное пространство для GPU и отдельное — для CPU. Разработчикам по-прежнему необходимо копировать данные между RAM и VRAM. Хотя это происходит и заметно быстрее, чем при копировании между двумя физически отдельными блоками памяти, по-прежнему в ряде задач задержки в процессе RAM-VRAM-RAM сильно ограничивают производительность.
    В PS4 применяется новая технология AMD hUMA, которая стирает границу между памятью для CPU и памятью для GPU. Оба процессора могут иметь доступ к одним и тем же участкам памяти одновременно. Теперь не нужно копировать данные между блоками памяти, что позволяет использовать совершенно новые алгоритмы, задействующие CPU и GPU одновременно.GPU является очень мощным высокопараллельным процессором, но для сложных задач он не годится. CPU, напротив, очень эффективен в сложных задачах, но слаб в высокопараллельных расчётах. Теперь можно очень эффективно объединять сильные стороны CPU и GPU, применяя их одновременно. Это даёт огромный прирост производительности в целом ряде задач и алгоритмов. Кроме того, hUMA позволяет использовать совершенно новые классы алгоритмов.
    В апреле текущего года один из руководителей AMD Фил Роджер (Phil Rogers) отмечал, что hUMA может существенно повысить 3D-производительность: «Разработчики игр многие годы хотели использовать текстуры более высокого разрешения. До сих пор им приходилось прибегать к различного рода уловкам, чтобы преобразовать части больших текстур в более мелкие. Это обусловлено тем, что сегодня текстуры должны располагаться в определённом месте физической памяти, прежде чем GPU сможет с ними работать. Благодаря hUMA приложения могут работать с текстурами гораздо эффективнее».Стоит отметить, что лишним подтверждением отсутствия поддержки технологии hUMA в Xbox One является то, что Sony участвует в работе основанной AMD организации HSA Foundation (Heterogeneous System Architecture Foundation), а Microsoft — нет. Цель этого консорциума — продвигать новые гетерогенные архитектуры, принципиально упрощающие взаимодействие между различными блоками однокристальных систем (прежде всего, между GPU и CPU).
    AMD обещает раскрыть ряд подробностей о технологии hUMA на конференции разработчиков в ноябре. Выход игровых консолей Xbox One и PS4 на рынок состоится в конце текущего года.


    35 minutes ago:
    http://www.gameblog.fr/news/37656-ps...re-la-xbox-one
    PS4 : AMD évoque une botte secrète décisive contre la Xbox One

    Les développeurs parlent de performances considérablement plus avancées
    par RaHaNRaHaN
    publié le 21 Août 2013 à 17h30PS4


    TAGS
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    OUTILS





    L'architecture de la mémoire : le talon d'Achille de la Xbox One ?

    Ce n'est pas nouveau : la PS4 sera la seule des deux nouvelles consoles à proposer une mémoire unifiée. Mais, aux dires d'AMD, fabricant des puces de ces deux machines, et de spécialistes du sujet comme de développeurs, cet avantage technologique pourrait être bien plus décisif qu'on ne l'aurait cru.
    Les deux consoles embarqueront un APU (réunion d'un CPU et d'un GPU en une seule puce), différent l'un de l'autre, mais conçu et fabriqué par AMD. Les deux consoles embarqueront 8 Go de mémoire. Mais sur PS4, l'incorporation de la technologie hUMA (Heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access) pourrait placer les performances 3D de la PS4 considérablement plus haut qu'on ne le pensait par rapport à la Xbox One (sans compter l'utilisation de GDDR5, plus rapide que la DDR3 de la Xbox One).
    hUMA tourne, man

    C'est ce qu'aurait laissé entendre Marc Diana, Senior Product Marketing Manager d'AMD, à c't, un gros magazine allemand d'informatique. Apparemment, le magazine aurait entendu confirmation de la part de développeurs que les performances graphiques de la PS4 seraient très en avance sur celles de la Xbox One.
    Pour ceux que ça intéressent, voici quelques explications qui permettent de mieux comprendre l'intérêt de hUMA (attention, quart d'heure technique) :
    Même si les APU réunissent sur une même puce le GPU (processeur graphique) et le CPU (processeur central), ces deux processeurs ont une mémoire séparée à leur disposition (du point de vue software, en tout cas, et ce même s'ils peuvent tous les deux utiliser physiquement les mêmes puces mémoire présentes sur la carte mère). Lorsque le CPU demande au GPU d'effectuer des calculs, il y a donc besoin de copier des données depuis la mémoire du CPU, vers celle du GPU, pour qu'elles deviennent accessibles à ce dernier. Lorsque les calculs sont complétés, les données résultantes doivent à leur tour être recopiées dans la mémoire du CPU pour qu'il les utilise.
    Fête de l'hUMA

    CPU et GPU n'utilisent pas les mêmes structures de données en mémoire. Même si cela varie en fonction des langages de programmation utilisés pour les faire travailler, les CPU utilisent généralement beaucoup les pointeurs, qui sont, pour simplifier, des adresses de mémoire désignant l'endroit où se trouve les données, plutôt que les données elles-mêmes. Du coup, on ne peut pas simplement recopier cette structure dans la mémoire d'un GPU, puisque ces adresses ne "pointeront" plus nécessairement vers le bon endroit de la mémoire du GPU une fois copiées telles quelles.

    hUMA est la solution technologique d'AMD pour résoudre ces problèmes. C'est un système cohérent de cache mémoire, qui permet au CPU et au GPU de profiter d'une vision cohérente des données stockées en mémoire : ce qu'on appelle une mémoire unifiée. Le GPU peut directement accéder aux adresses mémoire du CPU, ce qui lui permet de lire et d'écrire des données que le CPU peut directement lire et écrire également. Si l'un des processeurs effectue un changement de données, l'autre le verra, même si les anciennes données sont en cache. Sans rentrer plus avant dans les détails, cela permet également, du point de vue rendu 3D, de profiter de fonctionnalités similaires aux megatextures inaugurées par id Software, mais directement soutenues par le hardware.
    Pour de plus amples détails sur tout ceci, lisez l'article consacré au sujet parArstechnica (en anglais uniquement malheureusement).
    Plusieurs développeurs multisupport auraient corroboré tous ces éléments, arguant que leurs builds de jeu PS4 seraient bien plus performantes que celles sur Xbox One.

    par RaHaN








    5 hours ago..
    22.08.2013, 12:41 | Quelle: Heise<<< News >>>
    Nur PS4 mit Unified Memory

    Xbox One verzichtet auf die Funktion

    Sowohl in der Sony Playstation 4 als auch der Microsoft Xbox One stecken eine APU aus dem Hause AMD auf Basis der Jaguar-Architektur. Dennoch gibt es Unterschiede: So ist etwa die Grafiklösung der PS4 etwas potenter als die der Xbox One. Der Leistungsvorteil der Sony-Konsole wird allerdings laut neuesten Erkenntnissen noch größer ausfallen als erwartet. So ist auf der Gamescom 2013 in Köln durchgesickert, dass nur die PS4 Unified Memory nutzt und AMDs Technik "hUMA" (heterogeneous Uniform Memory Access) unterstützt. An der Xbox One fehlt jene Funktion. AMDs Senior-Manager für das Produktmarketing, Marc Diana, hat diese Angaben bestätigt. hUMA erlaubt CPU- und GPU-Kernen auf den gleichen Speicherbereich zuzugreifen, wodurch das bisher notwendige Hin- und Herkopieren der Daten entfällt. In Verbindung mit dem schnellen GDDR5-RAM der PS4 eröffnen sich hier für Entwickler viele Möglichkeiten.

    Die Microsoft Xbox One bietet zwar zusätzlichen eSRAM, aber nur DDR3-Speicher und verzichtet auf hUMA. Damit dürfte die Leistung der Microsoft-Konsole, zumindest auf dem Papier, sogar noch weiter hinter die PS4 zurückfallen als bisher angenommen. Hinter vorgehaltener Hand sollen viele Spielentwickler auf der Gamescom das Leistungsgefälle nickend bestätigen.
    (André Westphal)
    [Bisher 6x kommentiert - Kommentar hinzufügen]
    Last edited by Lefein; 08-22-2013 at 18:31.

  9. #83
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    This is going to help. It's nice to see both MS and Sony implementing this feature.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4
    I don't need no stinkin' signature!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Man Gamer View Post
    This is going to help. It's nice to see both MS and Sony implementing this feature.

    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4
    XBone does not have a sense of hUMA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post
    XBone does not have a sense of hUMA.

    -=[ PSN ID: Tha_MonkeyClaw ]=-

  12. #86
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    Only makes sense. Sony like to use and jump on newer tech for longevity sake. They aren't pushing any new formats this time around in the historical sense but this counts as their push forward this time around.


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    BIG BOMBSHELL!!

    http://www.nowgamer.com/news/2052820...omparison.html

    AMD is trying to retract and nullify their statements made at Gamescom (likely, with some persuasion from MS Legal Dept)

    AMD spokesperson, did in fact state that PS4 has hUMA and XBone does not...
    ​Confirmed.

    AMD spokesperson stating large performance gap between systems..
    Confirmed.

    AMD now being gag-ordered on the architecture of both PS4 and XBone from the fallout..
    Confirmed.

    Last edited by Lefein; 08-22-2013 at 19:01.

  14. Likes Peregrin8X, VayMasters86 likes this post
  15. #88
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    Ryse is a timed xbox 1 exluse just like titan fall. in 2 years they will come to the ps4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post
    BIG BOMBSHELL!!

    http://www.nowgamer.com/news/2052820...omparison.html

    AMD is trying to retract and nullify their statements made at Gamescom (likely, with some persuasion from MS Legal Dept)

    AMD spokesperson, did in fact state that PS4 has hUMA and XBone does not...
    ​Confirmed.

    AMD spokesperson stating large performance gap between systems..
    Confirmed.

    AMD now being gag-ordered on the architecture of both PS4 and XBone from the fallout..
    Confirmed.

    lol...not this again. I didn't read about anything being confirmed.

    AMD move to retract comments about an alleged performance gap between the PS4 and Xbox One.

    Published on Aug 22, 2013
    Speaking at Gamescom, AMDs senior product marketing manager, Marc Diana, recently stated that the way in which the PS4 is constructed would allow the console to outperform the Xbox One.
    AMD have now moved to retract those comments, releasing the following statement.
    "During a recent Gamescom 2013 interview, an AMD spokesperson made inaccurate statements regarding the details of our semi-custom APU architectures.
    "AMD will not comment on the Microsoft Xbox One and Sony PS4 memory architectures and will not speak for Microsoft, Sony or other AMD customers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    lol...not this again. I didn't read about anything being confirmed.
    Well, you can't retract something you didn't say. So, we can start with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy View Post
    Ryse is a timed xbox 1 exluse just like titan fall. in 2 years they will come to the ps4
    Titanfall id get in a year/2. Ryse not interested unless its more like onimusha / rygar gameplay.

    yeah i think the story is, x1 has uma, which there own thing that is similar and ps4 uses huma? Lefein is that correct?
    thats why amd said x1 doest have huma. Or so they both have huma?

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    Quote Originally Posted by almusmonk View Post
    Titanfall id get in a year/2. Ryse not interested unless its more like onimusha / rygar gameplay.

    yeah i think the story is, x1 has uma, which there own thing that is similar and ps4 uses huma? Lefein is that correct?
    thats why amd said x1 doest have huma. Or so they both have huma?
    It's utter rubbish. hUMA is a hardware feature in the memory controller. There could be ways of emulating it in software, but it's not the same and there may or may not be a hit to performance to some degree attempting it. Either the GPU and CPU can fully address memory or it can't. hUMA is full uniformity.

    I can see a case where the memory move units are put to good use in a tiled resource environment, though. It's still not going to be quite the same.
    Last edited by Lefein; 08-22-2013 at 19:27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post
    BIG BOMBSHELL!!

    http://www.nowgamer.com/news/2052820...omparison.html

    AMD is trying to retract and nullify their statements made at Gamescom (likely, with some persuasion from MS Legal Dept)

    AMD spokesperson, did in fact state that PS4 has hUMA and XBone does not...
    ​Confirmed.

    AMD spokesperson stating large performance gap between systems..
    Confirmed.

    AMD now being gag-ordered on the architecture of both PS4 and XBone from the fallout..
    Confirmed.

    Yeah, this retraction just gives us confirmation that it was actually said by a top AMD senior. It's highly unlikely that someone with his title is gonna give such an indepth view on the topic, and it be inaccurate. It was weird that he wouldn't realize he shouldn't say it to begin with though, lol. I guess he's just so hyped for PS4 that he couldn't help himself.

    This, coupled with Sony getting the Openstack scalable compute servers from Rackspace soon, is the nail in the coffin. Once MS really starts putting the cloud computing to any type of use for realistic side processing that can be done with it, Sony will already be doing it too with their own clouds. So, there's nothing gonna be there to give MS any sort of boost to try and keep the visual and overall power gap between the two systems to a minimum. They'll have to go full out MS evil style and just try to pay devs under the table to not push major multiplat PS4 versions to the max.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraTrstrL View Post
    Yeah, this retraction just gives us confirmation that it was actually said by a top AMD senior. It's highly unlikely that someone with his title is gonna give such an indepth view on the topic, and it be inaccurate. It was weird that he wouldn't realize he shouldn't say it to begin with though, lol. I guess he's just so hyped for PS4 that he couldn't help himself.

    This, coupled with Sony getting the Openstack scalable compute servers from Rackspace soon, is the nail in the coffin. Once MS really starts putting the cloud computing to any type of use for realistic side processing that can be done with it, Sony will already be doing it too with their own clouds. So, there's nothing gonna be there to give MS any sort of boost to try and keep the visual and overall power gap between the two systems to a minimum. They'll have to go full out MS evil style and just try to pay devs under the table to not push major multiplat PS4 versions to the max.
    And that's where things get tricky. Sony's hardware features simply chew the code and spit it out. So much is done at the hardware level that you would have to purposefully feed the machine bull$#@! to slow it down.

    Sony actually made a game/set/match architecture decision this time. Even I didn't see this coming.

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    Cool, thanks.
    jees the neogaf x1 guys just dont want to admit any advantage to ps4. Even by radeon standards the gpu is better in the ps4. I thought the uma was hardware the way they were making it sound.

    is the openstack servers official? I saw some of the rackspace thread. Im not gonna even pretend what i know what openstack scalable servers are or any different to MS servers.
    Last edited by almusmonk; 08-22-2013 at 19:30.

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    What I find utterly hilarious is that it is Sony who should really be mad. Microsoft could, in theory, announce a global push-back on their launch and redesign the console.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraTrstrL View Post
    They'll have to go full out MS evil style and just try to pay devs under the table to not push major multiplat PS4 versions to the max.
    Which they will still have a harder time doing this time around because Sony is being extremely developer friendly this gen!

    -=[ PSN ID: Tha_MonkeyClaw ]=-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post
    And that's where things get tricky. Sony's hardware features simply chew the code and spit it out. So much is done at the hardware level that you would have to purposefully feed the machine bull$#@! to slow it down.

    Sony actually made a game/set/match architecture decision this time. Even I didn't see this coming.
    It's also a scary thing for a dev to take MS up on something like that in this day and age too though. It could get them blacklisted and boycotted forever if they got caught red-handed sabotaging the PS4 version on purpose. It'd be very hard to get away with too, and if you did, you'd just look like a horrible coder.

    Yeah, it's weird that MS wouldn't use hUMA. Maybe they thought it wasn't the direction of the future and they were more comfortable with their trusted main ram, plus eSRAM combo. It's also been mentioned by Mark Cerny that the non-hUMA eSRAM combo method would be cheaper to do. So, that also could have factored in with why MS would go this route. Considering they knew they were bundling the Kinect and definitely didn't wanna go over $500, and they aren't the type to want to take any losses on console sales also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Not my interpretation, the guys who worked on the crew for PS4 lets us in on that one.
    But yes, this is a generational thing, each iteraiton of GPU has us getting closer to HUMA...



    I've said the Xbox one would be better suited to HUMA, because of the fact that it doesn't use a massively fast bus, in fact it technically has the "two" bus system (even if one is just the ESRAM).

    No one really knows for sure, we can only go off leaked documents for the XB One.
    We certainly know from what we have been told by devs and from Cerny, what the PS4 does.
    Just gave this some thought, but is there a chance that the port job of the crew was done on an older dev kit? Could stand to reason that the hUMA features were yet to be implemented and required the use of traditional memory pools?

    Also, I don't think it would be completely out of the picture for the PS4 to have hUMA, as shown by the 360 which had the unified shader tech a good couple of months ( maybe even 6?) before the tech became available to the PC. With a launch date of early 2014 for kaveri, I'd say there's a good chance of a hUMA setup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraTrstrL View Post
    It's also a scary thing for a dev to take MS up on something like that in this day and age too though. It could get them blacklisted and boycotted forever if they got caught red-handed sabotaging the PS4 version on purpose. It'd be very hard to get away with too, and if you did, you'd just look like a horrible coder.

    Yeah, it's weird that MS wouldn't use hUMA. Maybe they thought it wasn't the direction of the future and they were more comfortable with their trusted main ram, plus eSRAM combo. It's also been mentioned by Mark Cerny that the non-hUMA eSRAM combo method would be cheaper to do. So, that also could have factored in with why MS would go this route. Considering they knew they were bundling the Kinect and definitely didn't wanna go over $500, and they aren't the type to want to take any losses on console sales also.
    It was a cost/performance decision WAY early on. You have to remember, right after the XBox One reveal, these were the guys that blatantly told the world they were not targeting game performance:
    ‘We purposefully did not target the highest end graphics’ says Microsoft
    http://metro.co.uk/2013/05/22/we-pur...osoft-3804061/

    The whole philosophy behind the hardware architecture was general purpose entertainment and stuffing a 150-200 camera in the box with the console in mind. MS can PR spin and retract everything in the world, but they can't change the design of the hardware itself without a major delay. Their inability to launch in any but 13 countries suggest they had a struggle getting to the point they are at now in manufacturing.

    These are just the facts. and they are harsh ones.

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