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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varsh View Post
    Going to apologise in advance to those that were going "oh no a PC fanboy incoming", sorry if I do at times come across as one but I just hate people spewing drivel.


    I would love to know where you get your idea from, digital sales of PC games are not in any numbers you see anywhere because there are literally hundreds of sites where you can purchase PC games. If Steam is anything to go by there are currently 6 million people playing online right now - 6 million! Now think about other digital distribution applications like Origin, Desura, and others that have their own like Perfect World, NCSoft, Battle.Net, etc., and you'll see that there's probably more than 75+ million people playing at any one time alone on the PC easily. In fact I'll just point at Korea, the entire country is probably playing StarCraft right now.
    1) I donno how you're guessing the PC game community to be 75+ million (meaning, not mutually exclusive, in other words, there are actual 75+ million PC gamers out there). I'd love to see how you're getting there...when many of these gamers own multiple games.

    2) you're looking at it all wrong. PC development has no power left and it shows. GTA5 is not going to come out on PC as of yet, why? Because no one gives a $#@! about PC gamers. Why? Because those supposed 75+ million gamers are not going to go out and buy the game. Not even a fraction of them. Again, why? Because they're still playing ROME II, WoW, and many many games on Steam/Origin etc. They don't care to go out and buy the next craze. They're happy with what they have.

    Could you please remind me how many PC gamers bought GTAIV? What about any of the COD games since MW? Thank you.

    Anyway if PC gaming was dwindling rapidly then why is it that this game has more pre-orders and the series gains more sales year on year by millions?




    To you it might be more fun but to me it isn't, it's all a matter of preference.
    that means nothing. That's fraction of what console gaming brings in with a hit every few months.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainZ View Post
    Running 1440P to 720P is a still a huge gap regardless. I find it hard to believe BF3 to BF4 is equivalent of running 4 times more processing.
    it's a cross-gen title. It's not using the power efficiently.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    1) I donno how you're guessing the PC game community to be 75+ million (meaning, not mutually exclusive, in other words, there are actual 75+ million PC gamers out there). I'd love to see how you're getting there...when many of these gamers own multiple games.
    I've just given you an idea how I have, there are so many different clients out there that I would not be surprised that there are this many, in fact I would not be surprised if it was more.

    2) you're looking at it all wrong. PC development has no power left and it shows. GTA5 is not going to come out on PC as of yet, why? Because no one gives a $#@! about PC gamers. Why? Because those supposed 75+ million gamers are not going to go out and buy the game. Not even a fraction of them. Again, why? Because they're still playing ROME II, WoW, and many many games on Steam/Origin etc. They don't care to go out and buy the next craze. They're happy with what they have.
    Clearly you don't know about the PC market then. Rome II isn't even out yet! That game is the next craze for us Tactical RTS players. And GTA5 has never come out on PC first since Rockstar bought DMA Design after GTA2, in fact since GTA3 a GTA title has never been on PC first, why? Because TakeTwo is primarily a console publisher. All GTA titles have sold extremely well on the PC and always has done, it's one of the series that has one of the largest modding communities on the net.

    Just because there are thousands of games on Steam and Origin does not mean that PC Gamers do not want the next big game.

    Could you please remind me how many PC gamers bought GTAIV? What about any of the COD games since MW? Thank you.
    Like I said I don't know and not even the professionals that have their entire life devoted to finding this information out will ever know unless the publishers themselves release that information, in which case they don't or very rarely do.

    Edit: As for COD, PC Gamers don't generally play the same game every iteration, we're selective in that regards. Battlefield on the other hand is MASSIVE on the PC.

    that means nothing. That's fraction of what console gaming brings in with a hit every few months.
    You know for a very niche game it sells more than most Sony exclusives. Oh and I've just been checking that the Rome II pre-orders are six times more than Shogun 2 pre-orders. Considering that Shogun 2 was 3 weeks at number 1 in the UK all formats charts on physical copies only, that's pretty damn impressive.

  3. #53
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    Who cares? PC was and will always be graphics king. Consoles were and will always be king of everything else.


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    Quote Originally Posted by TDbank24 View Post
    Who cares? PC was and will always be graphics king.
    Not necessarily though. I have a high end PC, and I still think Uncharted 3 graphically beats anything I've seen on pc except for Crysis 3. God of War games are also up there.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varsh View Post
    I've just given you an idea how I have, there are so many different clients out there that I would not be surprised that there are this many, in fact I would not be surprised if it was more.
    No, I find it hard to believe that there are actually 75+ million PC gamers out there...excluding social gamers.

    Clearly you don't know about the PC market then. Rome II isn't even out yet!
    You caught me, I don't follow PC games, that doesn't disprove my point however.
    That game is the next craze for us Tactical RTS players. And GTA5 has never come out on PC first since Rockstar bought DMA Design after GTA2, in fact since GTA3 a GTA title has never been on PC first, why? Because TakeTwo is primarily a console publisher. All GTA titles have sold extremely well on the PC and always has done, it's one of the series that has one of the largest modding communities on the net.
    Yea, old GTAs have nothing to do with GTAs from nowadays. They sucked, once Rockstar took over, they became one of the most influential games of all times.

    But that's not the point I'm trying to make, just because they're primarily a console publisher, doesn't mean they wouldn't want to make money on PC as well. Look at Crytek, they went from making games just for PC (selling about a million copies) to making it multiplatform and probably at least breaking even now. That's the perfect example of why PC gaming is lagging behind more and more. You have a developer that was only interested in PC, then they started including consoles (Crysis 2/3) and now they're so far focusing on consoles (Xbox 1 - Ryse).

    it doesn't matter if Rockstar is primarily a console publisher or not, you can look at the makers of COD and see the same pattern. They don't give a crap about PC. PC doesn't bring in any money to them.

    All GTA titles have sold extremely well? Is the source from the same place these 75+ million gamers are coming from? Try less than a million for GTAIV.

    No they have not sold well on PC at all.

    Just because there are thousands of games on Steam and Origin does not mean that PC Gamers do not want the next big game.
    Could you show me one game on PC that was a multiplatform game and it sold more on PC? or even remotely close?

    Like I said I don't know and not even the professionals that have their entire life devoted to finding this information out will ever know unless the publishers themselves release that information, in which case they don't or very rarely do.
    lol
    Sales for the Windows version of the game were considerably less successful. According to NPD Group the game debuted at #7 of their weekly top ten.[148] One week later, the game disappeared completely from the top ten published by NPD Group.
    Then explain that.

    Edit: As for COD, PC Gamers don't generally play the same game every iteration, we're selective in that regards. Battlefield on the other hand is MASSIVE on the PC.
    That's the problem with PC, they don't want to spend money on new content. You can't show me one AAA publisher/developer doesn't come out with sequels...console gamers eat that $#@! up, PC gamers are happy with the mods. I don't blame them, I would love that too and I personally think that buying a new iteration every year is stupid but I can't deny that console gaming is where it's at right now. This is what's driving the market.

    You know for a very niche game it sells more than most Sony exclusives. Oh and I've just been checking that the Rome II pre-orders are six times more than Shogun 2 pre-orders. Considering that Shogun 2 was 3 weeks at number 1 in the UK all formats charts on physical copies only, that's pretty damn impressive.
    Again you're missing the point? Unless it's going to sell 50 million copies, it doesn't matter if it sells a little more or less than other games, because it's the quantity of AAA games that matters as well.

    Regardless of that argument, I find it hard to believe that a PC game would sell around 3-5 million copies. Do you have Shogun 2 total sales? and just how many preorders does it have again? At this point, you're speaking about contextual numbers, we could be talking about less than a million total sales again.

  6. #56
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    Where are these off-screen pics ?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varsh View Post
    Anyway if PC gaming was dwindling rapidly then why is it that this game has more pre-orders and the series gains more sales year on year by millions?

    i have put more hours into Rome total war then any other game in my entire life! ROME IS THE BUSINESS!!!!

    so much so, im shelling out thousands for a new PC. Rome should only be played on the best money can offer....if only to turn the unit scales up to bonkers!

    but to get back on topic:
    i wouldn't be too worried about how a game will look next gen. in comparison to the CPU's coming in the consoles, the GPU is a beast.

    games that will likely take a hit and not move forward as much will be the open world games, like TES and GTA. games that rely on a stronger CPU.

    but closed environment shooters should see a noticeable improvement.

    but to touch on PC's. outside of really unneeded render techniques (insane AA, HBAO x64 etc) there should be little difference out the gate. the models will look the same, they'll have the same texture resolution (or close to), LOD will be equal etc.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    No, I find it hard to believe that there are actually 75+ million PC gamers out there...excluding social gamers.
    Do you also find it hard to believe that more PCs were sold over the current generation of consoles put together?

    Yea, old GTAs have nothing to do with GTAs from nowadays. They sucked, once Rockstar took over, they became one of the most influential games of all times.
    GTA 1 and 2 were $#@!? If they were then why would RockStar even purchase them? RockStar purchased them because DMA Design were making a fortune from the series and halfway through development on GTA3 they went "ooo that looks amazing" and purchased them. Even when GTA was first released it was highly influential and got quite a following, it was the most talked about and played game at school at the time.

    But that's not the point I'm trying to make, just because they're primarily a console publisher, doesn't mean they wouldn't want to make money on PC as well. Look at Crytek, they went from making games just for PC (selling about a million copies) to making it multiplatform and probably at least breaking even now. That's the perfect example of why PC gaming is lagging behind more and more. You have a developer that was only interested in PC, then they started including consoles (Crysis 2/3) and now they're so far focusing on consoles (Xbox 1 - Ryse).
    Crytek entered the PC FPS market when it was already full to the brim of FPS games, on top of the Crysis wasn't anything special except for their engine. FarCry on the other hand sold more than Crysis because it was a better game. Either way that's not what made them go to consoles, they noticed that Epic were bringing their engine to consoles and in order to not be left behind they also did the same thing. If you have an engine working on consoles as well as PC then it's a no brainer to make multi-platform games.

    it doesn't matter if Rockstar is primarily a console publisher or not, you can look at the makers of COD and see the same pattern. They don't give a crap about PC. PC doesn't bring in any money to them.
    RockStar are owned by TakeTwo, TakeTwo are primarily a console publisher. As for COD that's like an EA, COD was initially developed by Infinity Ward and sold bucket loads on PC, same with COD 2 but when Activision decided to go "buyout" the games were never the same, in fact a lot of key staff from the original team has left - reminds me of EA and Westwood funnily enough.

    All GTA titles have sold extremely well? Is the source from the same place these 75+ million gamers are coming from? Try less than a million for GTAIV.
    Yes less than a million physical copies, do you know how many digital copies were sold? A lot more.

    Could you show me one game on PC that was a multiplatform game and it sold more on PC? or even remotely close?
    Unreal Tournament, Portal, Half-Life, Civilization, Alice, Space Marine, Beyond Good and Evil, Dreamfall, The Witcher, Doom, Dead Island, Trine, Quake, F1 games, NFS Shift, Fallout, Elder Scrolls, etc.. Want me to carry on?

    lolThen explain that.
    Like I said before digital copies on PC simply is impossible to keep track of, unless a developer goes "we've sold this many", like it shows on the Minecraft site, then even they are in the dark, why do you think even Michael Pachter has said on GameTrailers frequently that he simply guesses PC sales as they can't be tracked. For someone in finances you'd think he keeps very close tabs on all sales, and if he says "I don't know because of digital sales" then even NPD won't know.

    That's the problem with PC, they don't want to spend money on new content. You can't show me one AAA publisher/developer doesn't come out with sequels...console gamers eat that $#@! up, PC gamers are happy with the mods. I don't blame them, I would love that too and I personally think that buying a new iteration every year is stupid but I can't deny that console gaming is where it's at right now. This is what's driving the market.
    Are you trying to tell me that COD is a new game year on year? That's news to me, it's like saying FIFA is a new game year on year and you have them saying "oh it's the same game as last year, just with a new roster".

    Again you're missing the point? Unless it's going to sell 50 million copies, it doesn't matter if it sells a little more or less than other games, because it's the quantity of AAA games that matters as well.
    Quantity of AAA games? Guess you just don't like the genres on the PC then, there are just some genres that specifically can only work on the PC and while you may not class them as "AAA" we certainly do.

    Regardless of that argument, I find it hard to believe that a PC game would sell around 3-5 million copies. Do you have Shogun 2 total sales? and just how many preorders does it have again? At this point, you're speaking about contextual numbers, we could be talking about less than a million total sales again.
    Did I say I had Shogun 2 sales? The Total War series costs a fortune to develop, there's over 300 people working on Rome II alone and have been for the last ~2 years. Now being a UK company I'll just guestimate on their average wage of about £30k. So on wages along you're looking at £18 million alone, that's just wages and doesn't even consider everything else. If that game didn't sell more than at least 5 million they would be making a loss, would you honestly think that Sega would allow that?

    Shogun 2 like I said was in the top spot for a few weeks on physical copies alone, considering that it's hard finding physical copies of PC games in the UK pretty much cements the fact that digital sales were a hell of a lot more. It's already been confirmed by many that Rome II is slaughtering the Shogun 2 pre-orders and for good reason, the game mechanics and engine has taken such a giant leap this time.

    Consoles can only dream of playing a game like Total War and Civilization (Revolution couldn't even come close to a PC's Medium map let alone a Planet map) but if it was possible sure they'll put the game on another system, it makes sense because you would have a larger audience.

    As for sales, well PC versions are never advertised, and PC games aren't shown in store practically so how are people to know about PC physical copies? Guess it's just digital copies then and you'll never know the numbers.

    Valve have themselves said that PC gaming is on the rise, looking at all of the MMOs coming out you can see that PC gaming is on the rise, why would anyone make games on a platform when it's dying quickly especially MMOS that are F2P?

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    Steam have 5 million users logged in at any given time and over 35 million users with active accounts. That definitely rivals the Xbox 360 and PS3 when it comes to user bases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Steam have 5 million users logged in at any given time and over 35 million users with active accounts. That definitely rivals the Xbox 360 and PS3 when it comes to user bases.
    don't see how that's in any way relevant o_O

    call of duty alone has 40 million users on consoles. and the consoles themselves have a market of around 80 million.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    don't see how that's in any way relevant o_O

    call of duty alone has 40 million users on consoles. and the consoles themselves have a market of around 80 million.
    80 million consoles sold is different from 35 million active users. 80 million consoles includes people that rebuy consoles either because they break down or because they want the newer slim version. And even those outside that are not all actively gaming on PS3s and Xbox 360s. The key word is "active" accounts. Accounts that are actively being used.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    80 million consoles sold is different from 35 million active users. 80 million consoles includes people that rebuy consoles either because they break down or because they want the newer slim version. And even those outside that are not all actively gaming on PS3s and Xbox 360s. The key word is "active" accounts. Accounts that are actively being used.
    total consoles sold is 150 million o_O
    i deliberately left that out as i figured thats what you were getting at.

    as for active accounts. i auto-log into steam on my laptop yet don't actually game on it...i don't see the correlation with your claim.
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 08-27-2013 at 03:56.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    total consoles sold is 100 million o_O
    i deliberately left that out as i figured that what you were getting at.

    as for active accounts. i auto-log into steam on my laptop yet don't actually game on it...i don't see the correlation with your claim.
    So when I say that Steam rivals the Xbox 360 and PS3 when it comes to user bases, that has something to do with the Wii's 100 million consoles sold. You deliberately faltered unfailingly. Shots fired. ;p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    So when I say that Steam rivals the Xbox 360 and PS3 when it comes to user bases, that has something to do with the Wii's 100 million consoles sold. You deliberately faltered unfailingly. Shots fired. ;p
    what are you talking about?

    i posted erroneous numbers for the 360 and PS3, the actual number is 150 million. i edited my post accordingly. where did the Wii come from now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    what are you talking about?

    i posted erroneous numbers for the 360 and PS3, the actual number is 150 million. i edited my post accordingly. where did the Wii come from now?
    The Wii has sold 100 million consoles. But now I see you are comparing two platforms against one. I don't see anything proper about that. This kind of comparison really just supports PC more than it hurts it. PC is a lot more relevant than people want to admit. People always dismiss PC when it comes to comparing online features because it isn't fair, and yet those same people will try to compare PC against all existing consoles combined. In my opinion, that really shows how strong the platform really is.

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    Let us just wait and see... To me KZ and inFamous looked really good, so let the devs optimise and we'll see!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    The Wii has sold 100 million consoles. But now I see you are comparing two platforms against one. I don't see anything proper about that. This kind of comparison really just supports PC more than it hurts it. PC is a lot more relevant than people want to admit. People always dismiss PC when it comes to comparing online features because it isn't fair, and yet those same people will try to compare PC against all existing consoles combined. In my opinion, that really shows how strong the platform really is.
    steam has about 4% the userbase of consoles sold. each on their own has sold in the vicinity of 70 million+.

    consoles are usually combined due to their similarity. GRAW looked the same on both 360 and PS3, yet it did not on PC.

    gaming on the PS3 and 360 is identical, which is why they are grouped together.

    i still don't see the point?

    for all its vast resources, PC's have little to show for it outside of the genres that don't translate well to console.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    steam has about 4% the userbase of consoles sold. each on their own has sold in the vicinity of 70 million+.

    consoles are usually combined due to their similarity. GRAW looked the same on both 360 and PS3, yet it did not on PC.

    gaming on the PS3 and 360 is identical, which is why they are grouped together.

    i still don't see the point?

    for all its vast resources, PC's have little to show for it outside of the genres that don't translate well to console.
    I'll go ahead and just let you be right. You take the 5 million Steam users playing games at any given instance and compare it to the combined numbers of consoles sold of the Xbox 360 and the PS3 over an eight year period. I concede.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    I'll go ahead and just let you be right. You take the 5 million Steam users playing games at any given instance and compare it to the combined numbers of consoles sold of the Xbox 360 and the PS3 over an eight year period. I concede.
    question: why did you ignore the single game i posted above that has more "active users" o_O

    consoles have more games, and a larger userbase, then the PC market. active users for consoles (single or combined) will number in the ten's of millions.

    and as i said, my laptop is currently one of those 5 million....yet im not gaming.
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    god damn when will consoles get better gfx

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    No, he's right. Consoles, roughly, get twice the performance or so compared to PC's of similar specs. This was said by Carmack himself, who is widely considered to be a game tech genius.

    Some quotes from him reaffirming what is being said here:



    http://www.gamespot.com/news/e3-2011...n-rage-6318725

    DX11 has fixed things, it's just a better iteration of DX than its predecessors. Speeds things up.

    Consoles target a specific pre determined (by the devs) framerate and resolution. They don't have to worry about crazy XHD or multiple monitors. The developers don't have to concern themselves with variations to the console hardware- they all perform the exact same. There's no need for PC level graphics API or anything that stands inbetween the programmer and the hardware. Further, the consoles themselves are normally balanced out or have a particular synergy of components in mind. This isn't to say that they're always "perfectly balanced", merely that the components were engineered to work together in the closed box.

    Finally, consoles don't have to worry about all the shenanigans that PC's do when it comes to the OS. Yes, there are OS resources taken up on consoles but its still fairly 'simple' (compared to say Win7\Win and static. When it does change it's for the good, and gives developers more performance.

    It doesn't make the PS4 some 'super computer', but it makes it a hell of a little gaming machine.
    The 2x efficiency advantage isn't some law. Carmack said that in 2011, and he said it relative the console/PC development landscape at the time. We're not likely to as high an efficiency gap between console and PC due to the similarity in the architectures and the benefit of using higher level development environments that trade platform specific performance tweaks in favor or development ease and lower development costs.

    In any event, I'm looking forward to both consoles. When I want to enjoy the best visuals technology can offer, I game on my PC. When I want to play games with most of my friends and enjoy first part titles, I use the consoles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sneezymarble View Post
    The 2x efficiency advantage isn't some law. Carmack said that in 2011, and he said it relative the console/PC development landscape at the time. We're not likely to as high an efficiency gap between console and PC due to the similarity in the architectures and the benefit of using higher level development environments that trade platform specific performance tweaks in favor or development ease and lower development costs.

    In any event, I'm looking forward to both consoles. When I want to enjoy the best visuals technology can offer, I game on my PC. When I want to play games with most of my friends and enjoy first part titles, I use the consoles.
    Sure but that is irrelevant when it comes to exclusive development of games that do take advantage of the closed platforms and are designed for them from the ground up.

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    People coming out of Gamescom are saying BF4 was running on a PC with two 7990 GPU in crossfire. Those are $700 each, so there is really no comparison. There are some people with gaming PC's that have 3 GTX780, so if those are included, the gap between the nextgen consoles is even wider. BF4 probably isn't the best barometer and the high-def off-screen video of BF4 on one of the Gamescom PC's compared to the PS4 will give a more measurable idea of how wide the gap is. Yeah, on the PC market, that was *THE OVERALL MARKET*, not the hardcore PC gamer core. That is the substance of this situation, that PC's are still getting very good game selections with many multiplatform titles that are the better version on the PC. It is an extension of the best combination for the avid gamer which was the PS3 and a gaming PC, moving on to the best combination now is a PS4 and a gaming PC.
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    I remember the days when we only and mostly discussed about consoles and not PCs lol.


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    Quote Originally Posted by sneezymarble View Post
    The 2x efficiency advantage isn't some law. Carmack said that in 2011, and he said it relative the console/PC development landscape at the time. We're not likely to as high an efficiency gap between console and PC due to the similarity in the architectures and the benefit of using higher level development environments that trade platform specific performance tweaks in favor or development ease and lower development costs.

    In any event, I'm looking forward to both consoles. When I want to enjoy the best visuals technology can offer, I game on my PC. When I want to play games with most of my friends and enjoy first part titles, I use the consoles.
    I didn't mean to imply it was a law.


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