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  1. #51
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    He can't just shrug off the difference between the GPU's like that. PS4 has 6 more compute cores, that is significant. If you compare their equivalent off the shelf PC GPU's on current gen games @ 1080p, the difference is significant. In a closed box the different will only be more pronounced

    Every thing else he talks about are Microsoft's workarounds for making some bad decisions and designing an inherently weaker system. It's damage limitation, not architectural genius

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    Quote Originally Posted by UkHardcore View Post
    PS3 was more powerful than 360

    PS4 is more powerful than XBox One


    I dont know why PS only fans feel the need to constantly keep going on about which one is more powerful...We know! No need to over run the internet with the same posts over and over.
    It's a complex. PS4 is more powerful. Which doesn't actually affect the PS4 titles on the Xbox One lol. The same both ways. No matter how more powerful the PS4 is vs the WiiU, WiiU exclusives can't play on the PS4/Xbox One.

    I still can't, after all these years, come to reason about why there is such a war about which does what, etc. You buy what you want to buy because it's your choice, your preferences, etc. I've never bought anything because it was more powerful than something else. Never.




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  5. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sith View Post
    Yes, why is would he lie? You guys believe Sony and their specs. D
    And you believe MS and their "specs" so how are you any different? By your logic why would Sony lie? Anyway we'll be seeing awesome looking games on both consoles so pick your poison or buy both.
    Last edited by mistercrow; 09-11-2013 at 17:31.

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    When it comes to hardware people should wait until both consoles are actually out to see if they're actually what they say they are. They could crack open both of them and see what's really what.


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    Yeah I've been on the You Tube app checking next gen game footage and both consoles are cranking out some impressive looking games. So all this tech arguing seems pretty pointless.

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    "It's not true. They don't know our secrets but we know there's. See, lets compare"...that doesn't make any sense and that's basically what it boils down to. MS rep comparing specs and yet claiming people don't have the full pic.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    "It's not true. They don't know our secrets but we know there's. See, lets compare"...that doesn't make any sense and that's basically what it boils down to. MS rep comparing specs and yet claiming people don't have the full pic.

    Like sony care what they say, Sony is rocking atm , probably it will go on like this. As long as Sony keeps this rhythm, I am sure no one will care what ms says or how ms acts .
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    Almost two months away for the first one to be here and a week and some change for the other one.

    It's going to take about 2 to 3 years like most of you said to see the difference. But some developers will optimize one the best because of the specifications... But who will it be?
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    So MS and Sony are lying about their hardware. Got it.

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    Does it really mean that much to certain people which console is the most powerful? I could care less if there was a Pentium 3 in the $#@!ing console as long as they deliver me games which are fun to play. ONLY thing that matters.

    9 years and counting!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin View Post
    Does it really mean that much to certain people which console is the most powerful? I could care less if there was a Pentium 3 in the $#@!ing console as long as they deliver me games which are fun to play. ONLY thing that matters.

    really? LOL you have been here since 2005 Justin.. you know there is a group of people on both sides of this fight that will literally tear up if they don't have the "most" powerful console.

    Games ceased to matter a long time ago to most of these self proclaimed "gamers"... now they call themselves "core" or "hardcore".... it is all about pixels and FPS, not whether or not the game is insufferable or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    MS FUD throttle ahead again i see. I love how certain self proclaimed ''expert'' poster suddenly begin following MS PR line after the hopes and dreams of magical second GPUs are dashed.
    Now I know you not talking about me. because I haven't believed in any magical second GPU since we learned the specs, and if you ARE casting aspersions at me, then you don't partake very much in the discussions around here.

    Attacking tech experts on GAf and indeed attacking Timothy Lottes[coded GPU drivers for a living] with the incredulous exclamations of "What does he know?!",
    Oh, lol so you are talking about me.

    Timothy Lottes doesn't "code GPU drivers for living", not when wrote that at least.

    Who codes GPU drivers for a living? Microsft, ATI and Nvidia (and clearly some boffins over at Sony).

    And just for the record, Lottes backed the $#@! down over that, so please, do your research.
    then proclaiming MS PR as their own techno babble, whilst also being a just random forum member themselves here, it truly is comical.
    Hands up those who have programmed GPU's (to the metal), hands up those who created written and coded their own 3d engine? There are only 3 people on these forums that I know of and that would be able to say they have done some or all of this and that's Jabjab, jillopene (apologies mate if I got you name wrong) and myself.
    So much for humility and honesty. Misleading customers again MS? PRenello, Major Nelson, have you no shame?
    They aren't misleading anyone. You attack them as if they are suggesting the XBO is actually faster graphically. It aint, no way in hell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Mynd, the EDRAM bandwidth figures conjured up by Penello and Nelson were completely BS how could you even entertain their veracity? Really?

    And now we are supposed to believe more number games?
    Ok.

    I'm not going to go into a hugley indepth discusison on this, because it would be kind of pointless.
    What I will say is this.
    The benefits of VRAM is directly tied to the speed of said ram, clearly the same GPU running a GDDR solution vs a DDR solution is going to result in slower speeds. But why? The GPU is running at the same speed , why are you getting a decrease in performance?

    Well the answer is pretty obvious, cause the GPU ISNT running at optimal speed, its having to wait. It's waiting on a ram fetch, it waiting on a ram write, it's stalling because it has to use clock cycles waiting for a result to or form the memory.
    The faster you can grab you stuff the less stalls the faster you GPU can run at optimal efficiency.

    Take one draw call. Lets draw say, a character on screen.

    Lets give this character some shiny armor, say a breast plate.

    Now, it's likely this character will be drawn with a shader that emulates skin, and also another shader that emulates metal. He probably has a completely independent draw call for his head so it can be animated independently of his body. So, minimum, we decide we are going to use 3 draw calls just to draw him.

    Now what do we need to actually draw a character, here's all the stuff coming "in" to a GPU for us to draw said naked body.

    1/ A vertex buffer - a list of xyz and texture co-ordinates, usually include a lot more encoded data (diffuse, vertex color tangent space data)
    2/ An index buffer - a list of numbers in sets of 3, that relate to the vertex buffer to create a "triangle". This buffer is essentially a look up table to the vertex buffer, ie. polygon1 is co-ordinates 1,2 and 3 in vertex buffer etc.
    3/ Some textures - this can be any between 1-8 and can be of any size (although generally to the power of 2).

    Now by far in large the biggest resource going "in" is the textures, the buffers are are pretty small, some complex meshes might hit 1mb I suppose, but generally there are in the kilobytes.

    So we know what goes in, and the lions share is textures.

    What comes out the other? Nothing.

    Absolutely nothing. You don't create anything for a draw call, you've already done it well before this at the start of the scene. It's called the framebuffer.

    What a GPU primary focus is, with any draw call is to modify that framebuffer. Not only modify it but also check against it. Because the frame buffer is actually multiple buffers, but the two most important are the colour and depth buffers.

    As I say I'm not going in to the real techno babel about depth texts and writes etc, but it's important to note:

    THE PRIMARY GOAL OF A GPU IS TO MODIFY THE FRAMEBUFFER.

    The faster is can do this, the faster your GPU will run.

    So, given you primary goal is to modify the framebuffer, and given you test against it, and write to it every single time you out put a pixel, why wouldn't you collate that in you bandwidth figures?

    Removing it from them is like taking the 176gb of GDDR speed and halving at saying, nah $#@! you you can't count the framebuffer as part of you package, at all.

    And then there are other benefits, as I have said, if a developer profiles a scene draw and finds that $#@!, in 40% of my draw calls I'm referencing this particular texture, or memory address all the time, then it makes sense to also bring that over to the ESRAM.

    Look, its by no means ideal, it is most definitely a "fix" to having DDR3 in the system, but you can absolutely count it as bandwidth where the GPU figures are concerned.

    It has a direct meaningful impact on a GPU system right off the bat.

    And again I'll reiterate, these are theoretical maxims both systems are referring to, will any one ever hits these? Hell no, not for anything like a sustained rate of time. But adding the bandwidths is absolutely a legitimate way to reference the GPU theoretical peaks.

    The key to what Penello said was "on paper" that's covers a lot of things being discounted from the real world performance. Like the fact that you may hardly ever actually read/write to esram while also fetching a texture from the DDR. Although I imagine that would be done in differed rendering situations where you are assembling the final frame.
    Last edited by mynd; 09-12-2013 at 02:40.

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  17. #63
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    Mynd:
    How do they arrive to the numbers they been givin us ? Seems to be confusion over that but maybe you can write the formula down here to shed some light over it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JVH View Post
    Mynd:
    How do they arrive to the numbers they been givin us ? Seems to be confusion over that but maybe you can write the formula down here to shed some light over it ?
    You mean the number in relation to Sony's? Or the actual teraflops etc etc?

    As far as compared to Sony's:
    They are assuming the 3x times faster figure of the VGleaks article about Onion, or they know for a fact. IDK. But they are saying cache coherent bus is 10gbs/s.

    They are also assuming (know? IDK) the PS4 is a 1.6ghz machine.

    The CPU speed of the Xbox One is 1.75ghz vs 1.6ghz=9.3%

    The GPU speed of the Xbox One is 853mhz vs 800mhz.=0.66%

    Again, I don't know if these numbers are absolute finals specs for PS4. We would have to assume for augments sake, that they are, its certainly what gaffers use as their criteria and basis for comparison.

    Suggesting we don't know the final specs for the PS4 is a bit of a cop out.

    Sure we don't, arguing they went up, well you could argue they went down as well. I think you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere don't you? Sony made a press release back in Feb with the teraflop numbers stated, therefore you'd have to assume that they were confident enough that it wasn't going to change, although t there is always that wonder full "final specification may change" addendum to all these techno fact sheets.

    I can give you guys the formulas etc if you want the GPU spec ones numbers.
    Last edited by mynd; 09-12-2013 at 00:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    You mean the number in relation to Sony's? Or the actual teraflops etc etc?

    As far as compared to Sony's:
    They are assuming the 3x times faster figure of the VGleaks article about Onion, or the know for fact. IDK. But they are saying cache coherent bus is 10gbs/s.

    They are also assuming (know? IDK) the PS4 is a 1.6ghz machine.

    The CPU speed of the Xbox One is 1.75ghz vs 1.6ghz=9.3%

    The GPU speed of the Xbox One is 853mhz vs 800mhz.=0.66%

    Again, I don't know if these numbers are absolute finals specs for PS4. We would have to assume for augments sake, that they are, its certainly what gaffers use as their criteria and basis for comparison.

    Suggesting we don't know the final specs for the PS4 is a bit of a cop out.

    Sure we don't, arguing they went up, well you could argue they went down as well. I think you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere don't you? Sony made a press release back in Feb with the teraflop numbers stated, therefore you'd have to assume that they were confident enough that it wasn't going to change, although t there is always that wonder full "final specification may change" addendum to all these techno fact sheets.

    I can give you guys the formulas etc if you want the GPU spec ones numbers.
    Yeah, I was thinking of this:
    We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted.
    I think its the 204gb/s number thats causing some confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JVH View Post
    Yeah, I was thinking of this:
    We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted.
    I think its the 204gb/s number thats causing some confusion.


    You want to know how they got to 204gb/s peak?

    Notice they say 109gb minimum?
    The original number pre upclock was 102.4.

    This was calculated as:
    clock speed x bits

    Or 800mhz times 128bytes.

    Obviously its now 853,mhz times 128 bytes=109.18 gb/s.

    Which leads us to that mysterious extra 95gbs/s.
    You cant simply add more bandwidth, you certainly cant adjust clock speed.
    That would leave us reading 128 bytes and writing a rather odd 111 bytes.

    A couple of assumptions here: We have to assume they are writing evenly over all 4 blocks.
    I can only assume they would be writing an extra 224 bits per clock cycle to each block.
    In other words they reserve 32 bits on the write cycle for something else (probably some sort of checksum/parity).

    The alternative is they literally split the read write with check sums for a total of only 240 bits each way, and 16 bits for a parity check/checksum.

    According to Digital Foundry they found extra "holes". Who knows.

    The other alternative is simply that it just take "a break" from reading and writing every so often and they artificially limit the read/write speed down by stalling the pipeline every so often to reduce heat.
    If you tell it to stop reading an writing every 16th clock cycle this would also give you a peak of 204gb/s

    I'd favor heat frankly.
    Last edited by mynd; 09-12-2013 at 01:33.

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  22. #67
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    Props to Mynd +Rep.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post


    You want to know how they got to 204gb/s peak?

    Notice they say 109gb minimum?
    The original number pre upclock was 102.4.

    This was calculated as:
    clock speed x bits

    Or 800mhz times 128bytes.

    Obviously its now 853,mhz times 128 bytes=109.18 gb/s.

    Which leads us to that mysterious extra 95gbs/s.
    You cant simply add more bandwidth, you certainly cant adjust clock speed.
    That would leave us reading 128 bytes and writing a rather odd 111 bytes.

    A couple of assumptions here: We have to assume they are writing evenly over all 4 blocks.
    I can only assume they would be writing an extra 224 bits per clock cycle to each block.
    In other words they reserve 32 bits on the write cycle for something else (probably some sort of checksum/parity).

    The alternative is they literally split the read write with check sums for a total of only 240 bits each way, and 16 bits for a parity check/checksum.

    According to Digital Foundry they found extra "holes". Who knows.

    The other alternative is simply that it just take "a break" from reading and writing every so often and they artificially limit the read/write speed down by stalling the pipeline every so often to reduce heat.
    If you tell it to stop reading an writing every 16th clock cycle this would also give you a peak of 204gb/s

    I'd favor heat frankly.
    Wasn't semiaccurate the source for all the xbox 720 dual GPU wizard $#@! of yore?
    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    Wasn't semiaccurate the source for all the xbox 720 dual GPU wizard $#@! of yore?
    1/ Thats not a semi-accurate slide, its an official Microsoft slide.

    2/ No, that's all a combination of Misterxmedia and the original MS leaked documents. However it didn't stop Misterx from incorporating it into his theories. He incorporated just about anything he could find to support his theories.

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    dbl post

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    And you believe MS and their "specs" so how are you any different? By your logic why would Sony lie? Anyway we'll be seeing awesome looking games on both consoles so pick your poison or buy both.
    Of course, listen bro mS is number one in R&D above Apple and Google they do have some of the worlds best engineers their.
    Im going to say this do you folks think MS going to let a near bankrupt company out do them.
    Like i say before Sony did not have the money for R&D for ps4 they had no choice but to use cheap off the shelf pc components to keep the cost down as stated by Sony CFO.
    Last edited by PS4freak; 09-12-2013 at 05:34.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sith View Post
    Of course, listen bro mS is number one in R&D above Apple and Google they do have some of the worlds best engineers their.
    Im going to say this do you folks think MS going to let a near bankrupt broke ass company out do them.
    Like i say before Sony did not have the money for R&D for ps4 they had no choice but to use cheap off the shelf pc components to keep the cost down as stated by Sony CFO.
    Wow some crazy ass fanboyism here. Apple and Google have been absolutely $#@!ting on Microsoft when it comes to the phone business, not even a competition. Anyways, Sony the quote,"near bankrupt broke ass company" did outdo them. They do have the advantage graphically and even mynd has stated that. It might not be a huge advantage like a lot of sony fans have been parading around, but it is at least a small amount.

    To make statements like Sony doesn't have money for R&D so they went with cheap parts is just retarded, ignorant, and flat out stupid.
    Last edited by WretchedSoul21; 09-12-2013 at 05:30.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sith View Post
    Of course, listen bro mS is number one in R&D above Apple and Google they do have some of the worlds best engineers their. Im going to say this do you folks think MS going to let a near bankrupt company out do them. Like i say before Sony did not have the money for R&D for ps4 they had no choice but to use cheap off the shelf pc components to keep the cost down as stated by Sony CFO.
    LMAO! Surely you cant be serious with that post. Wow. lol
    Last edited by mistercrow; 09-12-2013 at 07:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    LMAO! Surely you cant be serious with that post. Wow. lol
    Of course serious as tick.

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    When do u know a company is in big trouble ?? When high executives making a GAF account to convince some hardcore nerds that your gaming console is worth any penny. This is so ridiculous especially that your PR nonsense dont work over there. Keep it going MS, never had laugh so much.


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