Page 1 of 5 1 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 106
  1. #1
    Soldier 95B
    Guest

    Thumbs up PS4’s alleged superior hardware compared to the Xbox One greatly overstated

    http://www.psu.com/a020921/PS4-more-...says-Microsoft

    Claims of PlayStation 4’s alleged superior hardware in comparison to the Xbox One have been ‘greatly overstated,’ according to Microsoft’s Albert Penello.

    Writing on NeoGAF, the executive lambasted pockets of the gaming community for promoting “misinformation” regarding the technical performance of Microsoft’s next-generation console.

    While Penello insisted he was “not disparaging Sony…the way people are calculating the differences between the two machines isn’t completely accurate. I think I’ve been upfront I have nothing but respect for those guys, but I’m not a fan of the mis-information about our performance.

    “So, here are couple of points about some of the individual parts for people to consider.”

    -[PS4's] 18 CU's vs. [Xbox One's] 12 CU's =/= 50% more performance. Multi-core processors have inherent inefficiency with more CU's, so it's simply incorrect to say 50% more GPU.


    -Adding to that, each of our CU's is running 6% faster. It's not simply a 6% clock speed increase overall.


    -We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted.


    -We have at least 10% more CPU. Not only a faster processor, but a better audio chip also offloading CPU cycles.


    -We understand GPGPU and its importance very well. Microsoft invented Direct Compute, and have been using GPGPU in a shipping product since 2010 - it's called Kinect.


    -Speaking of GPGPU - we have 3X the coherent bandwidth for GPGPU at 30gb/sec which significantly improves our ability for the CPU to efficiently read data generated by the GPU.

    PS4 is due for release in the U.S. on November 15 and arrives in Europe on November 29. Xbox One meanwhile is scheduled to ship on November 22.
    Dayum....now we are talking a TIGHT TIGHT console race. BOOOYA! Glad MS cleared up some of those hardware questions. Good thing the Xbox has all that extra cooling space. Gonna need it for all that power.

  2. #2
    Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    PSN ID
    Captobvious75
    Posts
    132
    Rep Power
    10
    Points
    1,327 (0 Banked)
    Both systems are going to be awesome

    Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

  3. #3
    Elite Guru
    EHY893's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Age
    29
    Posts
    5,569
    Rep Power
    68
    Points
    27,164 (0 Banked)
    Items Naughty DogMetal Gear SolidPlayStation
    Quote Originally Posted by Captobvious75 View Post
    Both systems are going to be awesome

    Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
    Indeed. That we can all be sure of

  4. #4
    Dedicated Member
    Ragnorok64's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Age
    28
    Posts
    1,100
    Rep Power
    58
    Points
    1,627 (0 Banked)
    This thread should get entertaining.

    Sent from my LG-VM696 using Tapatalk 2

  5. Likes EHY893 likes this post
  6. #5
    Extreme Poster
    mistercrow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Texas
    PSN ID
    mistercrow
    Posts
    25,535
    Rep Power
    166
    Points
    169,417 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Captobvious75 View Post
    Both systems are going to be awesome Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2
    Thankyou Captain Obvious. Pun intended. lol

  7. #6
    PSU Live Streamer
    YoungMullah88's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Charlotte
    PSN ID
    xShadow__WoIf | YoungMullah88
    Posts
    14,782
    Rep Power
    114
    Points
    37,878 (1,800 Banked)
    Items User name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    still fighting the good fight....guess this is there equivalent of what Major nelson did back in 05.

    NOVEMBER 15 cant come fast enough

  8. #7
    Master Sage
    Two4DaMoney's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Age
    27
    Posts
    12,588
    Rep Power
    112
    Points
    17,090 (75,576 Banked)
    Items Naughty DogPS3 SlimNaughty DogUser name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    still fighting the good fight....guess this is there equivalent of what Major nelson did back in 05.

    NOVEMBER 15 cant come fast enough
    I was reading that thread last night. There was holes poked all through his post.
    N.F.G

  9. #8
    Supreme Veteran
    mynd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Down Under
    Age
    42
    Posts
    17,943
    Rep Power
    163
    Points
    198,050 (0 Banked)
    Items User name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    I was reading that thread last night. There was holes poked all through his post.
    Which is what gaffers do. After my posts ended up there I actually PMSL with some of the responses. Nobody is going to lose sleep over arguing with those "experts".

    Still this shouldn't be read as MS being more powerful, but they are a lot closer than a theoretical maxim. Id still put Sonys nose ahead though.

  10. Likes UkHardcore likes this post
  11. #9
    Legend
    F34R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    South Carolina
    PSN ID
    F34RTEHR34PER
    Posts
    40,125
    Rep Power
    245
    Points
    149,344 (0 Banked)
    Items BullySteamGran Turismo 5LiverpoolAppleJoker (limited ICON)Naughty DogMaster ChiefAssassins Creed EzioGears of WarHeavy RainDiablo III
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    meh. The Xbox One can't play PS4 exclusives, and the PS4 can't play Xbox One exclusives. That's all that really matters.




  12. Likes Christopher likes this post
  13. #10
    PSU Trophy Manager
    Fenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    PSN ID
    Faenix1
    Age
    25
    Posts
    11,614
    Rep Power
    92
    Points
    20,024 (1,000 Banked)
    Items Final Fantasy X-2Final Fantasy XIIFangNoctisLightningFinal Fantasy Versus XIIIFinal Fantasy XIII-2Final Fantasy XIIINaughty DogFinal Fantasy XFinal Fantasy VIIPS3 Slim
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Isnt it outsiders that say PS4 is more powerful, not someone that works for the company? (Which of course will say its wrong, even if it wasn't.)

    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    meh. The Xbox One can't play PS4 exclusives, and the PS4 can't play Xbox One exclusives. That's all that really matters.
    Indeed. Thats the only thing I care about.

    Sig&Av by Kuro

    Preorders:
    FarCry4DragonAge3DyingLightOrder1886Witcher3Batman:AKUncharted4

    PSN
    , XBL, Steam: Faenix1 - 3DS Friend Code: 3883-6299-4363
    Phat PS3: February 2008 - June 1st, 2011, Slim PS3: June 3rd 2011 - Present
    PS4, 3DSxl: November 2013 - Present
    PSVita December 2013 - Present

  14. #11
    Soldier 95B
    Guest
    I am seeing that more and more developers are on this page as well. Looks like they are closer than we thought. Great news for gamers, and glad to see those specs confirmed.

  15. #12
    PSU Technical Advisor
    Vulgotha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Age
    24
    Posts
    15,953
    Rep Power
    145
    Points
    108,860 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    I laughed at his 6% upclock statement and how he tried to marginalize the CU advantage. Lot of spin in this article.


  16. Likes Demi_God likes this post
  17. #13
    Legend
    F34R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    South Carolina
    PSN ID
    F34RTEHR34PER
    Posts
    40,125
    Rep Power
    245
    Points
    149,344 (0 Banked)
    Items BullySteamGran Turismo 5LiverpoolAppleJoker (limited ICON)Naughty DogMaster ChiefAssassins Creed EzioGears of WarHeavy RainDiablo III
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I laughed at his 6% upclock statement and how he tried to marginalize the CU advantage. Lot of spin in this article.
    I think all the articles/interviews about the power of the consoles are "lots a spin".




  18. #14
    Supreme Veteran
    mynd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Down Under
    Age
    42
    Posts
    17,943
    Rep Power
    163
    Points
    198,050 (0 Banked)
    Items User name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I laughed at his 6% upclock statement and how he tried to marginalize the CU advantage. Lot of spin in this article.
    I have said to you that the CU count is a bit odd and not balanced in the GPU, as well as the fact that these things are still done in largely serial sequences.
    There is inefficiencies when it comes to have more CU's than needed if you code doesn't use them all at once.

    You cant run shader code at peak performance all the time, there maybe occasions when simple mad (multiply and add) is all that is required, you cant use the extra CU's, simply because they are there, they need data to work on. I really see the beef up for compute work.

    There is no doubt however when it comes to fill rates that the PS4 will be able to do this faster.

  19. #15
    Superior Member
    WretchedSoul21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    587
    Rep Power
    68
    Points
    3,899 (0 Banked)
    We have more memory bandwidth. 176gb/sec is peak on paper for GDDR5. Our peak on paper is 272gb/sec. (68gb/sec DDR3 + 204gb/sec on ESRAM). ESRAM can do read/write cycles simultaneously so I see this number mis-quoted.
    Are you even able to add those bandwidth numbers together like that anyways??
    "Bigfoot is blurry, that is the problem...it is not the photographers fault...Bigfoot is blurry and that is extra scary to me because there is an extra large out-of-focus creature roaming the countryside....Run he's fuzzy, get out of here" ~ Mitch Hedburg, RIP you crazy fool

  20. #16
    Supreme Veteran
    mynd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Down Under
    Age
    42
    Posts
    17,943
    Rep Power
    163
    Points
    198,050 (0 Banked)
    Items User name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by WretchedSoul21 View Post
    Are you even able to add those bandwidth numbers together like that anyways??
    If you are able to concurrently read from DDR and write to ESRAM. Which they can.

  21. #17
    PSU Technical Advisor
    Vulgotha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Age
    24
    Posts
    15,953
    Rep Power
    145
    Points
    108,860 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=674213

    I never quite grasped how the CU count wasn't 'balanced' though. In relation to what? Surely not bandwidth because look at some monster cards out there and compare total bandwidth to the amount of stream processors.

    proportionately the PS4 isn't 'out of whack' there, and if it is than powerful PC cards are even more so.

    It has 32 ROPS which is normal, is it lacking in ALU's? I don't think it is there either.

    I also think there are some very sound rebuttals to his bandwidth math in that thread. If I recall, and it was pointed out there, didn't Nelson and Penello do similar 'magical math' for the 360's total system memory in regards to Edram?

    Didn't that figure go north of 260GB/s as if it meant something?

    We know it was bull$#@!. But now, suddenly, people are believing it when the very same human being is proclaiming a absolutely massive bandwidth advantage and starts playing number games?
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 09-10-2013 at 21:44.


  22. Likes victorijapoosp , VayMasters86 likes this post
  23. #18
    Elite Guru
    TAZ427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sugar Land, TX
    PSN ID
    TAZ427
    Age
    43
    Posts
    5,226
    Rep Power
    76
    Points
    22,646 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    If you are able to concurrently read from DDR and write to ESRAM. Which they can.
    Yes, technically you can for short burst, but it's all falls apart for sustained data transfer do to limited amount of ESRAM which need to be re-feed with new data.

    Burst Throughput - Yes
    Sustained Throughput with new data being feed into ESRAM - No
    Sustained Throughput w/ old data being used from ESRAM - Sure, but is not useful.

    The real question is how much this can be truly utilized in the game system.

    MS did do a smart thing by allowing the Memory Controller of the APU to fill the ESRAM with the same data that's being fetched by the GPU - This will help keep it feed, but for real systems usage, you'll not get a sustained throughput that equals DDR3 Tput + ESRAM Tput. Even though you can get Burst throughput of those numbers.

    It's basically like say you've got a Garden Hose (DDR3 - Relatively Huge Water Source size that's not going to run dry) that fills the memory (and you can also fill the the ESRAM at the same time with a second garden house - which is true.)

    But ESRAM is a 5 Gallon Bucket. And on the 5 Gallon Bucket you've attached a Fire House Pump which pumps out that 5 Gallon Bucket extremely quickly (much quicker that it can be filled by the Garden Hose)

    That being said, do to the power of SW you may be able to re-use this water a few times.

    And at any given instance you can get the flow rate of the Garden Hose + Fire Hose, but you can't sustain this because that Fire Hose has drained your 5 Gallon bucket in no time flat (even if the water in the bucket was re-used a few times.)



  24. #19
    Soldier 95B
    Guest
    Oh boy, this is getting good. I love how people suddenly know more about the Xbox One hardware than Microsoft. Droves. Glad Cerny and Penello have confirmed the details like this as fact.

  25. #20
    Elite Sage
    Mael Duin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Age
    29
    Posts
    10,743
    Rep Power
    111
    Points
    14,485 (0 Banked)
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Source: Microsoft.
    Hmmh, okay.
    Man who chase after bus get exhausted, man who run in front of bus get tired
    Man who masturbates in class has firm grip of subject at hand
    Woman who sink in man's arms soon have arms in man's sink

  26. #21
    Soldier 95B
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mael Duin View Post
    Source: Microsoft.
    Hmmh, okay.
    So we shouldn't believe Sony and Microsoft when they talk about the hardware that they built?

  27. #22
    Apprentice
    on the rocks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    PSN ID
    nordost
    Posts
    318
    Rep Power
    60
    Points
    1,284 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier 95B View Post
    So we shouldn't believe Sony and Microsoft when they talk about the hardware that they built?
    Should we believe Microsoft when they speak about Sonys hardware?

  28. #23
    Elite Guru
    TAZ427's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sugar Land, TX
    PSN ID
    TAZ427
    Age
    43
    Posts
    5,226
    Rep Power
    76
    Points
    22,646 (0 Banked)
    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier 95B View Post
    Oh boy, this is getting good. I love how people suddenly know more about the Xbox One hardware than Microsoft. Droves. Glad Cerny and Penello have confirmed the details like this as fact.
    What I've stated doesn't go against what Cerny and Penello have stated, it includes additional details that they didn't go into.

    Clarification that the throughput is achievable in bursts, but not sustainable for a constant throughput doesn't go against what's been claimed. It only clarifies it a bit.

    The reality is Penello can't put a number around what the sustainable throughput would be because it's going to be dependent upon data usage. I guaranty he knows and understand that what is sustainable is less than what's achievable as in shorter bursts.

    What's sustainable is going to be much greater than DDR3 Tput alone, but it's not going to equal DDR3 Tput + ESRAM Tput. However, bursts Tput will equal this.



  29. #24
    Supreme Veteran
    mynd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Down Under
    Age
    42
    Posts
    17,943
    Rep Power
    163
    Points
    198,050 (0 Banked)
    Items User name style
    Achievements IT'S OVER 9000!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=674213

    I never quite grasped how the CU count wasn't 'balanced' though. In relation to what? Surely not bandwidth because look at some monster cards out there and compare total bandwidth to the amount of stream processors.
    Most people put a heavy emphasis on the pixel shader end of the queue, which is rightly so, this stuff consumes most of the workload. But you have to have to do the geometry shader and vertex shader work first. This is where by in large you going to get inefficiencies. Look at tit this way, if you fetch count is the same, you vertex shaders are the same (and there is no reason I think anyone would ever conclude a vertex shader is going to be complex, it just doesn't happen), then your going to be getting a wash at that end of the pipeline. Of course at the other end its a friggin no contest with ROP output.
    But they all have to go through that vertex step first.
    Now, if that exactly running though at the same speed, you may get say, a 6% gain to the XBO.
    However, at the other end you doing pixle work, which will consumer (traditonally) 3/4 or you processing power, then you will see roughly 50% gain to the PS3.

    The upshot thought would be you end up with (50% time .75)-(6% times .25)=36%.

    Now that's just an example, and I'll again, reiterate, that probably the worst case scenario, where you full maximized all the units in the CU with data. Its highly dependant on the pixel shader code, how many things you are doing, what stuff requires results form a previous steps, and how long ago those steps where done.

    Look at this way, if I have a pixel shader that takes texture 1 performs an op based on vertex data put through (tangents for example), then multiples that by texture 2, I;d end up with a dependent code... i.e.

    Step 1: Texture 1*Tangent data, store result in temp 1
    Step 2: Texture 2* Temp 1 data

    Step 1 must be completed before step 2.

    Now compare that with say another pixel shader code that might take the exact same first step, but instead it's next instruction is to take texture 2 and multiply it by texture 3.

    Step 1: Texture 1*Tangent data, store result in temp 1
    Step 2: Texture 2*Tangent data, store results in temp 2
    Step 3, add temp1 and temp 2.

    Now only step 2 is no longer waiting on step 1, you could fling that off to another CU to do the work via prediction. Defiantly a boost having more CU's there.

    On the other hand there is no boost having additional cu's in the first case, because its sequential, and dependent.

    Everything is a mix, it's going to be just about a much smart shader code optimizations as anything else.

    proportionately the PS4 isn't 'out of whack' there, and if it is than powerful PC cards are even more so.

    It has 32 ROPS which is normal, is it lacking in ALU's? I don't think it is there either.
    Compare you clock speeds, and your texture fetch rates on on the more beefier GPU's to that of the PS4 GPU.
    I also think there are some very sound rebuttals to his bandwidth math in that thread. If I recall, and it was pointed out there, didn't Nelson and Penello do similar 'magical math' for the 360's total system memory in regards to Edram?

    Didn't that figure go north of 260GB/s as if it meant something?
    Some times it will mean something, a lot of times not, but it does mean you not in a wait state if you do it write on the DDR3, and that worth a clock tick or two easily.
    We know it was bull$#@!. But now, suddenly, people are believing it when the very same human being is proclaiming a absolutely massive bandwidth advantage and starts playing number games?
    It wasnt bull$#@! at all, we all know the benefits of the fast EDRAM on the 360, the less stalls.
    Lets not forget , with tiling, the 360 was doing a bucket load more rendering than a traditional system, and still shone. It was effectively having to draw a fair bit of overdraw, not to mention, recreate the frame 4 times.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAZ427 View Post
    Yes, technically you can for short burst, but it's all falls apart for sustained data transfer do to limited amount of ESRAM which need to be re-feed with new data.

    Burst Throughput - Yes
    Sustained Throughput with new data being feed into ESRAM - No
    Sustained Throughput w/ old data being used from ESRAM - Sure, but is not useful.

    The real question is how much this can be truly utilized in the game system.

    MS did do a smart thing by allowing the Memory Controller of the APU to fill the ESRAM with the same data that's being fetched by the GPU - This will help keep it feed, but for real systems usage, you'll not get a sustained throughput that equals DDR3 Tput + ESRAM Tput. Even though you can get Burst throughput of those numbers.

    It's basically like say you've got a Garden Hose (DDR3 - Relatively Huge Water Source size that's not going to run dry) that fills the memory (and you can also fill the the ESRAM at the same time with a second garden house - which is true.)

    But ESRAM is a 5 Gallon Bucket. And on the 5 Gallon Bucket you've attached a Fire House Pump which pumps out that 5 Gallon Bucket extremely quickly (much quicker that it can be filled by the Garden Hose)

    That being said, do to the power of SW you may be able to re-use this water a few times.

    And at any given instance you can get the flow rate of the Garden Hose + Fire Hose, but you can't sustain this because that Fire Hose has drained your 5 Gallon bucket in no time flat (even if the water in the bucket was re-used a few times.)
    There are a small amount of texture you may use in reference in a particular scene, for example, you'd keep you shadow maps stored in the ESRAM, as you will be doing a reference to them every time you draw your scene.

    That benefit can not be understated.

    A scene is assembled from a huge amount of buffer reads, and textures.
    Obviously texture fill up the majority of any given data "in" to a GPU.

    If you final assembly requires a constant fetch read from say you shadow map, and that's nearby, your going to gain a good amount of performance from having that being filled simultaneously as you gddr reads for textures of individual models and meshs.
    In short in a scene any thing you reference constantly across the scene (GI data, shadow maps) will give you a boost by fetching it from the ESRAM.

    The reals gains are still from zero stall, frame buffer writes however.
    Last edited by mynd; 09-11-2013 at 03:08.

  30. #25
    Soldier 95B
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by on the rocks View Post
    Should we believe Microsoft when they speak about Sonys hardware?
    Microsoft only spoke about what Sony announced. So if you believe Sony and what they said about their own hardware, then MS is as accurate as Sony's claims.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
vBCredits II Deluxe v2.1.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2010-2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.