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  1. #76
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    Hi guys I love this forum, really do learn so much from here I have a few questions Iíd just around some pointsI have pretty good grasp of tech (I think lol) but apologise if I get some of the terminology wrong:

    1)Ok itís pretty clear that Ps4 raw metal is more powerful; a lot more power the xb1 regardless of what transpires from theoretical to actual performance. General consensus Iím getting is that due to lack of drivers, esram memory architecture, un-finalised hardware etc is the main reason for some of the developer comments being made. Iím not sure if any of you are on Gaf but the rebuttle MS is throwing around is that once optimised the differences will be hardly noticed between the two systems. This is all fine and well and I understand thatís once code is re-written to take advantage (I use that term loosely) of Esram and archecture we wont see horrible frame rates produced by the EDGE article but how would that make up the gap between the two are they saying an optimised version would run at similar frame rate and resolution as a ps4?
    2)This whole optimisation thing also surely can only go so far isnít the ps4 a more flexible (close to the metal) environment anyway? Meaning in terms of optimisation if you were to optimise a game on both platforms youíd be able to squeeze more from the ps4 anyway (regardless of the differences in GPU power)
    3)Am I right in thinking that the problem isnít that ESRAM is unfamiliar architecture its more along the lines of the responsibility it now bears? I mean other things like Cache stores (improving effiecny) and increasing bandwith, what can you really do with that amount of memory? And what are youíre thoughts as to why devs are all of a sudden devs claiming itís a pain in the ass? Theyíve been writing code to take advantage of this set up for years?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bitbydeath View Post
    MS have finally conceded to it.



    http://kotaku.com/report-ps4-is-50-f...ium=Socialflow[/I][/FONT][/COLOR]
    Pretty much goes in line with what they said about making the system to be all entertainment and didn't target high end graphics. Sony went more into the gaming aspect. Ms went for the all around Swiss army knife approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I don't think so. This generation had the port problems due to the hard development aspects of the PS3. That won't be the issue this time around.

    This sums up what I said earlier... and is the only thing that matters to me. I think he plagiarized me lol
    When you gonna sue those guys?! They have stolen all your ideas!
    Last edited by PS4freak; 09-13-2013 at 21:40.




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  3. #78
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    I know the ports were half-assed this generation, but you have to look at one thing, the consoles of this gen are harder to program for and take more time to optimize because they both use completely different architectures. The PS4 and XB1 are both using x86 architecture, and while even though the XB1 takes a little more work to make the magic happen because of the ESRAM, they are both much easier to program for than what is currently on the market. It might takes a few weeks to tweak a specific game from one system to the other, but it will all happen much easier and faster than this gen. If anything I would think games are going to start looking way better this gen (including the PC versions) since they will all be using x86, I am personally not worried about this!


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  4. #79
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    This coupled with the fact that the PS4 has a hugh positive buzz and pre order numbers are through the roof. I hope those factors will mean that multiplats wont be gimped too much if at all.

    This gen just felt restricted specially the latter half of this gen when devs really got a grasp of the PS3 yet still gimped games. Thank God for 1st party studios who really stepped up and excelled.

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    If a 3rd party studio wants my money they will have to earn it. If they don't release games on par with the quality I expect I won't buy them. Honestly...pc games don't look like wii games. Even 360 and ps3 games don't....so if they have time to optimize it I think they will make the best version (visually) they can. I DON'T THINK THEY WILL ADD/TAKE AWAY GAME ELEMENTS. What I worry about is that once they reach a target render for PS4 they will shift all people to optimize the X1 to look as close to it as possible instead of letting both teams work up to the end to get each looking the best they can. So I do believe they won't optimize most PS4 versions...just like we see on the PS3...that will come from 1st party...but if they can't match 1st party studios...they will see sells slip and they will be forced to do better. Most developers want to make the best games they can...I don't think they would do it on purpose but visually I think the PS4 is going to come out ahead....how much...idk. I see nothing wrong with PC>PS4>X1. If Sony can separate themselves install base-wise we might get fully optimized games from the 3rd parties...until then....they will finish their version and move resources to get the X1 to meet it.

  6. #81
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    IM not going to bother rpeating myself so this is just a cut and paste of what I wrote in the other thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    More developers speak out on PS4 vs Xbox One:

    http://www.edge-online.com/news/powe...e-performance/




    THIS is the part that should have everyone justifiably annoyed and concerned:

    [/B][/B]
    It's driver related, Penello has even admitted that just after E3 they started getting decent performance out of the drivers..

    Even this close to launch, “the hardware isn’t locked,” said another source. Sony and Microsoft are each still working on the graphics drivers for each console, and Xbox One is lagging behind in this regard – Microsoft “has been late on their drivers and that has been hurting them,” said one source. Another described Xbox One’s graphics drivers less charitably as “horrible”. Both consoles’ graphics drivers will continue to improve right up to – and beyond – launch, which will even up the difference in performance a little.
    Not sure why you missed that bit...
    “The poor [graphics] drivers have made it difficult to push either of them, and the developers aren’t familiar with the hardware yet,“ said one source. Another stated that we’ll begin to see far greater use of each platform’s unique features once we’re past the first wave of releases, when developers have more time and experience with each console’s quirks.

    And Penello's confirmation....

    We're in the final stages of game and SW development now. We're working closely with 3rd parties as we approach launch. Reports we're hearing back from developers consistently are confirming that cross-plat games are running the same on both platforms.

    I believe there is a point back near E3 where developers would have said their games were running better on PS4. I think Marc Whitten made the point that we'd just completed some driver work about a month ago just before Gamescom. And look at the frame-rate improvements in DR3 between Gamescom and PAX. We're making huge strides in our SW stability, and again, we have customized and balanced the system to reduce bottlenecks and optimize performance, in ways that aren't seen in the published specs.
    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...=#post80984205

    It makes no sense to say you can hot 1920x1080@30 and only 1600x1900@25.

    That's a net difference of 100%. Which is just BS. The only way you'd be hitting those if you were ignoring the ESRAM completely and hitting ram stalls on the DDR memory.

    I'd expect the Xbox one figure to be closer to 1920x1080@25 fps when you using the ESRAM optimally.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

  7. #82
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    I Call this BS

    Digital Foundry did a specs comparison before

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...mpete-with-ps4

    As you can see the ps4, despite being more powerful can only target 7-8 fps more then the X1. Is this what 50 percent more powerful brings to the table? Also I don't think they are maxing out the ESRAM.

    Also you have John Camack, stating that they are bascailly identical

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthi...-john-carmack/

    On the other hand, you have EDGE coming out stating "anonymous developers" state that PS4 is 50 percent more powerful. LOL get real. You believe them or John Camack and Digital Foundry. I know who I believe.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    IM not going to bother rpeating myself so this is just a cut and paste of what I wrote in the other thread...



    It's driver related, Penello has even admitted that just after E3 they started getting decent performance out of the drivers..


    Not sure why you missed that bit...



    And Penello's confirmation....



    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...=#post80984205

    It makes no sense to say you can hot 1920x1080@30 and only 1600x1900@25.

    That's a net difference of 100%. Which is just BS. The only way you'd be hitting those if you were ignoring the ESRAM completely and hitting ram stalls on the DDR memory.

    I'd expect the Xbox one figure to be closer to 1920x1080@25 fps when you using the ESRAM optimally.

    Lol you are just relentless. You're really having a go at me for not putting the word 'driver' in my post?

    Here, let me make it up to you: "Driver".


    There, now anybody who didn't read the article I linked about performance disparity are fully cognizant of the fact that, indeed, drivers are a factor.

    Last edited by Vulgotha; 09-13-2013 at 23:59.


  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    I Call this BS
    You didn't read this on page 1?

    "ATVI was doing the CoD: Ghosts port to nextgen. It took three weeks for PS4 and came out at 90 FPS unoptimized, and four months on Xbone and came out at 15 FPS."

  10. #85
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    #Patiently........................... awaiting my X1

    Ok, was this before Digital Foundry did the specs comparison on X1 vs PS4 or was this after?
    Last edited by FightingSmile64; 09-14-2013 at 00:03. Reason: Because i said so....

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    #Patiently........................... awaiting my X1

    Ok, was this before Digital Foundry did the specs comparison on X1 vs PS4 or was this after?
    After, we won't get a complete spec comparison until both are released unfortunately.

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    Ok, seriously it looks like the devs on the EDGE article aren't even using the ESRAM. I know its harder to code for but its not that hard compared to the cell division of the PS3. IMO the table have turned, ps4 will be easier to program for due to its simpler design compared to the slight complexity of the X1 design ,however I expect devs to full understand and utilise the ESRAM in a matter of 2 years compared to the cell design of ps3 where devs only got the hang of it last year and this year.

    Also by the looks of it, ESRAM is now 88 percent higher then it was before
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...ction-hardware
    Last edited by FightingSmile64; 09-14-2013 at 00:12.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    I Call this BS

    Digital Foundry did a specs comparison before

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...mpete-with-ps4

    As you can see the ps4, despite being more powerful can only target 7-8 fps more then the X1. Is this what 50 percent more powerful brings to the table? Also I don't think they are maxing out the ESRAM.

    Also you have John Camack, stating that they are bascailly identical

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthi...-john-carmack/

    On the other hand, you have EDGE coming out stating "anonymous developers" state that PS4 is 50 percent more powerful. LOL get real. You believe them or John Camack and Digital Foundry. I know who I believe.
    hahahaha, Oh dear. Still fighting the good fight?

    Nobody takes DF seriously after the barefaced clickbait 4.5gb RAM lies fiasco, immediately called out by a dev using 6gb RAM in his game.

    And of course their graphical "analysis" using compressed youtube videos.

    Carmack is talking about the architectures being identical, not the power of the processors.

    Edge's sources were 100% right about the 8gb GDDR5 in the PS4 - up until the announcement everyman and his dog though it was impossible, 4gb was pushing it already.

    Edge's sources also leaked the Xbone's no used games DRM policy. 100% correct.

    Difference between Edge magazine and Eurogamer. Edge magazine's journalistic integrity is at a level where people happily PAY money to subscribe to the paper version despite the huge volume of free gaming news on the internet. I have subscribed for a long time - at times it felt like they hated Sony and PS3, ie they had a bias. But then I realised they were not, they were simply relaying the general consensus of gamers and of course their own opinion. Sony and PS3 slowly changed perception and opinions by concentrating on delivering incredible games, they delivered first party games that looked and arguably better than anything on the 360.

    Edge don't rely on clickbait and page views for their salaries. Eurogamer do rely on Clickbait and pageviews it is their only income.
    Last edited by victorijapoosp; 09-14-2013 at 00:18.
    You can't be serious with the 30 megabyte signature... ~ Staff

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
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    The Truth will be in the pudding................ enough said

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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    The Truth will be in the pudding................ enough said
    I'm going to read the ingredients before I order. I'm allergic to $#@!ty hardware.

    You can't be serious with the 30 megabyte signature... ~ Staff

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
    Great song, should have more views :'(

    SHIMAASAAAANIIII!!!!!
    http://i.imgur.com/bP50xuM.png

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    John Carmack also said he hadn't done enough benchmarking yet to be conclusive on the power differences.

    Well done Sony.

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    Ok....almost all of the devs coming out saying this on and off the record. Independent review sites and tech sites point to it. The raw numbers do more than just imply it. Yet I am suppose to believe a MS PR spokesman and some MS fanboys to believe that the difference isn't there. That despite the numbers...the raw data and all the outspoken people inside the industry I should ignore it all and believe MS just wouldn't allow this to happen. Sorry....you may be able to sell me on the fact that devs may not make full use of the differences but I'm just not buying the its almost the same. They may make use of similar architecture and more pc based but they are different machines made to do different things well. One is made to do more multimedia/multitasking and play games well. The other is built about being incredibly powerful and simple and straight forward to optimize performance for gaming...with plenty under the hood to support the other apps and features they have in mind.

    In the end the $100 cheaper console IS more powerful and WILL have games that when optimized will out perform the other.....end of story...


    Sony was very fortunate and forward looking with this device. They took big chances on GDDR5 prices dropping and holding off for the next gen more advanced chips by AMD. They planned their whole console around these chip advances and prices coming down and hit a home run. They took chances...and its paying off....that is why they have this advantage really. They waited...held their breath..but made bold decisions and they have their reward.
    Last edited by davin_g; 09-14-2013 at 00:26.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    More tidbits:



    [/FONT](by Peter Bartholow - CEO of Lab Zero Games - Guys who made Skullgirls)
    Wow.

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    It doesn't sound like a credible source. If the Xbox One is a pain, then the Xbox 360 was a pain because both had ESRAM and everyone knows already how to work with such a setup. Anonymous developers speaking out just sounds plain suspicious.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    I Call this BS

    Digital Foundry did a specs comparison before

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...mpete-with-ps4

    As you can see the ps4, despite being more powerful can only target 7-8 fps more then the X1. Is this what 50 percent more powerful brings to the table? Also I don't think they are maxing out the ESRAM.

    Also you have John Camack, stating that they are bascailly identical

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthi...-john-carmack/

    On the other hand, you have EDGE coming out stating "anonymous developers" state that PS4 is 50 percent more powerful. LOL get real. You believe them or John Camack and Digital Foundry. I know who I believe.
    Lol the specs they used for the xb1 comparison actually favors it more than the spec they used for the ps4, ill find a post someone made that represents it more...also guessing leadbetter wrote those articles lol

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by badb0y

    Holy $#@!, those idiots over at Digital Foundry have really $#@!ed up this conversation, haven't they?

    To preface this post I want to say that although I admire what Digital Foundry tried to do but their methodologies were not only flawed but straight up wrong.

    The first thing they did wrong was select the wrong graphics cards to correctly compare the 2 situations.

    For the Xbox One they used a HD 7850 over a HD 7790 while for the PS4 they used a 7870 XT over a 7850. This is wrong because using the 7850 for the Xbox One thrusts it into a whole different category of graphics cards that bring many advantages not present in the Xbox One GPU (32 ROPs vs 16 ROPs).

    The methodology they used would have been perfect if they grabbed a HD 7790 and clocked it to ~731 Mhz for the Xbox One's GPU and used a a HD 7850 and clocked it to 898 Mhz.

    Xbox One = 1.310 Teraflops ------- (HD 7790)Bonaire @ 731 Mhz = .731*2*896 = ~1.310 Teraflops
    PS4 = 1.84 Teraflops ------- (HD 7850)Pitcairn @ 898 Mhz = .898*2*1024 = ~1.84 Teraflops

    I reckon using these cards at these clocks would really show the GPU difference between the two consoles but alas Digital Foundry went about this some other dumbass way.

    To get to the point since I don't have the hardware I mentioned above on hand to conduct the tests myself but I can extrapolate data from graphics cards that are similar to what goes into these consoles. For the Xbox One that would be an HD 7770 because it has a similar amount of GPU power as the GPU used in the Xbox One (1.310 Tflops vs 1.28 Tflops) while for the PS4 I would use the HD 7850 (1.84 Tflops vs 1.76 Tflops) and then compare the results for a realistic look at the performance gap. Oh, by the way the gap between 1.28(HD 7770) and 1.76(HD 7850) is smaller than the gap between 1.31(Xbox One) and 1.84(PS4) so that's already giving a slight break to the Xbox One in this comparison.

    For my analysis I am using benchmark numbers from Anandtech.com:
    http://anandtech.com/bench/product/777?vs=778
    Using the data above I came up with the following chart:

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=621
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    Last edited by YoungMullah88; 09-14-2013 at 00:47.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dossage View Post
    Hi guys I love this forum, really do learn so much from here I have a few questions I’d just around some pointsI have pretty good grasp of tech (I think lol) but apologise if I get some of the terminology wrong:

    1)Ok it’s pretty clear that Ps4 raw metal is more powerful; a lot more power the xb1 regardless of what transpires from theoretical to actual performance. General consensus I’m getting is that due to lack of drivers, esram memory architecture, un-finalised hardware etc is the main reason for some of the developer comments being made. I’m not sure if any of you are on Gaf but the rebuttle MS is throwing around is that once optimised the differences will be hardly noticed between the two systems. This is all fine and well and I understand that’s once code is re-written to take advantage (I use that term loosely) of Esram and archecture we wont see horrible frame rates produced by the EDGE article but how would that make up the gap between the two are they saying an optimised version would run at similar frame rate and resolution as a ps4?
    2)This whole optimisation thing also surely can only go so far isn’t the ps4 a more flexible (close to the metal) environment anyway? Meaning in terms of optimisation if you were to optimise a game on both platforms you’d be able to squeeze more from the ps4 anyway (regardless of the differences in GPU power)
    3)Am I right in thinking that the problem isn’t that ESRAM is unfamiliar architecture its more along the lines of the responsibility it now bears? I mean other things like Cache stores (improving effiecny) and increasing bandwith, what can you really do with that amount of memory? And what are you’re thoughts as to why devs are all of a sudden devs claiming it’s a pain in the ass? They’ve been writing code to take advantage of this set up for years?
    Yeah basically you answered your own question. If you optimize both than ps4 will get even further ahead due to less complication on the ram department

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    So to break it down -

    PS4


    Xbox 1


    Wii U

  23. Likes Admartian , Silvy likes this post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Lol you are just relentless. You're really having a go at me for not putting the word 'driver' in my post?

    Here, let me make it up to you: "Driver".


    There, now anybody who didn't read the article I linked about performance disparity are fully cognizant of the fact that, indeed, drivers are a factor.

    Sorry if it comes across as me having a go at you. I just cut and paste it. I'm guilty of being lazy. Im not having a go at you (again) .

    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    Lol the specs they used for the xb1 comparison actually favors it more than the spec they used for the ps4, ill find a post someone made that represents it more...also guessing leadbetter wrote those articles lol

    Edit:

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=621
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    This guys figures are also bull$#@!.

    The best option would have been 7790 vs 7870 ghz edition. Then multiply your respective results by 12/14 and 18/20

    Still, that would set you back to about 35-45% advantage
    Last edited by mynd; 09-14-2013 at 04:28.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    I was just poking at you, thus the "lol" at the front of the post.


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    You know what get me is, MS keeps saying we have optimizations, I'd like them to start outlining them.
    I still think the figure will be closer to 30% than 50% in the wash, even with optimizations however in the graphics pipeline.

    Thats raw GPU though. I have no idea what the impact of GPGPU will have on either system. If devs decide to use say the audio block on the XBO and emulate the fx on the GPU for the PS4..who knows...
    Last edited by mynd; 09-14-2013 at 02:10.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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