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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    I didn't say otherwise. Your original post painted a different story.



    I can't recall anyone saying that.



    There you go again making assumptions about others.



    With the PS4, no, they wouldn't have. It's taking Microsoft time and effort to make sure they release their console without the DRM. If Sony had plans for it, we'd have known before Microsoft.



    DRE wasn't the same as RROD (was still an issue that Sony should have addressed.) I know some people choose to look at that the same way -- since it suits their point. If it was on the same scale, there would have been a response by Sony. Just like there was with Microsoft. Microsoft ignored the problem for as long as they could ignore it.

    I never compared the scale of it, just the same business practices. You're making a broad assumption about the scale and that Sony would have responded. It took a class action suit to get Sony to deal with it at all. I never said it was the same in any way other than it is within the scope of business practices

    Good point there. Also, I agree with most of what you said but Microsoft weren't completely upfront.

    They definitely weren't upfront. If they continued the way they were going, they would have lost me as a customer.


    Different department that made different decisions which PlayStation did not follow. Haven't been the first to follow so far. If they do rootkit again, sure call them out and don't buy their stuff.....but that's an old thing only being brought up to counter Microsoft's recent DRM move.

    Playstation isn't a company. It's a brand controlled ultimately by a company. Again, on this, I didn't say it was anything other than Sony going through with it, no different than Microsoft trying to go through with drm.

    My personal view on what Microsoft tried to do is that I don't have a big issue of what Microsoft was trying to do. I just think they could have done it without using the type of DRM they had outlined.
    For someone to support Sony, but denounce Microsoft for similar problems... well, that just doesn't hold much water.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I never compared the scale of it, just the same business practices. You're making a broad assumption about the scale and that Sony would have responded. It took a class action suit to get Sony to deal with it at all. I never said it was the same in any way other than it is within the scope of business practices
    My point was that Sony's response would have been because of a lawsuit. Not because it's what they would have done, or is their normal procedure. Scale of the issue matters because of how much coverage you are getting for it and the level of coverage the RROD got over the DRE (whether they were the same scale or not) is what pushed Microsoft to do what they did, what would have pushed Sony to do the same is what I was trying to get at.

    DRE could have been on the same scale as RROD. It just didn't get the same kind of attention. Let me put it that way.

    Playstation isn't a company. It's a brand controlled ultimately by a company. Again, on this, I didn't say it was anything other than Sony going through with it, no different than Microsoft trying to go through with drm.
    I don't see how that matters when the decisions Sony BMG makes has nothing to do with the decisions Sony PlayStation makes. Being under the same company does not mean they follow the same footsteps of the other.

    For someone to support Sony, but denounce Microsoft for similar problems... well, that just doesn't hold much water.
    Right, and that's just your assumption. DRE wasn't on the same scale and so it didn't get the same coverage that RROD did, but even if it was on the same scale as RROD, the fact that it didn't get the same kind of coverage still matters, how can it not?

    I don't think the DRE was on the same scale (and Sony should have addressed it -- I said that.)

    You can't ignore that. There could be other factors involved such as social media wasn't as big back then as it is now so there were more people vocal about the RROD issue.....but that just goes back to what I said about coverage.

    If it was on the same scale, fine, I can be wrong....I just don't remember it being that. This doesn't take away from my point.
    Last edited by sainraja; 09-16-2013 at 04:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    For someone to support Sony, but denounce Microsoft for similar problems... well, that just doesn't hold much water.
    lol but that makes no sense. Why do we need to denounce Sony when they haven't done that in video games yet? Why does that concern us? If they did do something relevant to the PlayStation brand then you have a point there.

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    Not to ignore this fact also, when the rootkit thing happend, it was a joint venture between Sony and Bertelsmann AG.

    "Sony BMG Music Entertainment was a recorded music company, which was a 50–50 joint venture between the Sony Corporation of America and Bertelsmann AG. The venture’s successor, the again-active Sony Music Entertainment, is 100% owned by the Sony Corporation of America."

    Source
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG

    Still, Sony should be held accountable for that. Not sure why they need to explain anything on the PlayStation side though.

    So like I said, it was only brought up to counter what Microsoft recently attempted to do.

    We can ignore the above as well. It doesn't matter but at least until Sony attempts that again, you have to at least wait for that to happen.
    Last edited by sainraja; 09-16-2013 at 04:13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    Not to ignore this fact also, when the rootkit thing happend, it was a joint venture between Sony and Bertelsmann AG.

    "Sony BMG Music Entertainment was a recorded music company, which was a 50–50 joint venture between the Sony Corporation of America and Bertelsmann AG. The venture’s successor, the again-active Sony Music Entertainment, is 100% owned by the Sony Corporation of America."

    Source
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG

    Still, Sony should be held accountable for that. Not sure why they need to explain anything on the PlayStation side though.

    So like I said, it was only brought up to counter what Microsoft recently attempted to do.

    We can ignore the above as well. It doesn't matter but at least until Sony attempts that again, you have to at least wait for that to happen.
    that's exactly what i'm trying to say. it would sound silly if someone said, "Remember that buggy Windows 8 guys? screw MS, not buying the Xbox 360."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    that's exactly what i'm trying to say. it would sound silly if someone said, "Remember that buggy Windows 8 guys? screw MS, not buying the Xbox 360."
    MS took away the start button on windows 8, guess the new xbox will not start either. --Awesome logic guys lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    Of course it is. Which is why I"m not buying an Xbox this time around. If the two companies circumstances were the other way around I'd be getting an X1 and not a PS4. Now if Sony screws up and say the PS4 has massive problems and the X1 doesn't I would have no problem switching despite Sony's (IMO) better exclusives. (except Forza 5 which will be brilliant). Because I just dont want to deal with unstable hardware. Thats why being tethered to a brand ride or die is not a good thing.
    LOL NO FORGET THAT IM TETHERED TO PLAYSTATION RIDE OR DIE SINCE 97 THEY CARE BOUT' ME PLAYSTATION FOR LIFE!!!!

    On topic sounds like MS just flatout screwed up for year 1 of this console war.
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    I guess we'll see how the Xbox One is when it is finally released, etc. Until then, I guess it's just "article" after "article" with the same info for us to talk about.




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    This seems very well planned out by Sony. They want to keep barraging with stuff like this every week. At this point, I'm surprised MS hasn't done as much or more in this dept. considering how close we are from launch. Penello was a start but that guy is mostly fluff and people want developers to talk more.

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    I just don't see how bringing up the rootkit (something that happened before in the past and had nothing to do with PlayStation) is an appropriate counter point to people who mention the online DRM that Microsoft planned on implementing.

    We're not stupid. We know Microsoft isn't using it now. That's a good thing. Who is saying otherwise?

    I'll go back to what started this conversation in the first place.

    As for the DRM 180? I find it funny how SOME Sony fans say Sony didn't implement DRM out of the goodness of their heart. That they did it cuz they CARE for their customers.
    Who said that Sony didn't implement DRM out of the goodness of their heart?

    They are a business and saw an opportunity to take advantage of a situation that Microsoft wasn't benefiting from. If Sony was to implement something like DRM (if Microsoft was able to) it most likely wouldn't have been this generation.

    Microsoft is releasing a patch day one to rectify their DRM procedure that they did implement. Sony would have had to do the same I imagine.

    That's why I find it disingenuous when people say they won't buy an Xbox One...despite their 180 on DRM..... because MS was TRYING to screw their customers with DRM...... but are FULLY willing to overlook the fact Sony actually went through with implementing DRM with Rooykit for 2 full years.

    Time relevancy? That has a lot to do with it. People aren't going to forget what Microsoft did as easily as Sony since it JUST happened. Sony's was years ago and they haven't shown signs of doing that again. You may think it does not matter but it does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    I just don't see how bringing up the rootkit (something that happened before in the past and had nothing to do with PlayStation) is an appropriate counter point to people who mention the online DRM that Microsoft planned on implementing.

    We're not stupid. We know Microsoft isn't using it now. That's a good thing. Who is saying otherwise?

    I'll go back to what started this conversation in the first place.

    Who said that Sony didn't implement DRM out of the goodness of their heart?

    They are a business and saw an opportunity to take advantage of a situation that Microsoft wasn't benefiting from. If Sony was to implement something like DRM (if Microsoft was able to) it most likely wouldn't have been this generation.

    Microsoft is releasing a patch day one to rectify their DRM procedure that they did implement. Sony would have had to do the same I imagine.


    Time relevancy? That has a lot to do with it. People aren't going to forget what Microsoft did as easily as Sony since it JUST happened. Sony's was years ago and they haven't shown signs of doing that again. You may think it does not matter but it does.
    I don't think it's for the drm procedure. I just think it's for more things they need to get done, but have a time table to get the console released.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I don't think it's for the drm procedure. I just think it's for more things they need to get done, but have a time table to get the console released.
    Exactly. The hardware and the base line software is already being manufactured, the extended launch day software won't be completed for at least another month or two.

    It's the same thing that happened to the WiiU with it's giant day 1 update.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    No more crazy logic than preferring a company that did try to screw you over one that didnt.

    Mod Note: Edited.
    Wow... the responses here came fast and fierce. So I will try to address as much as possible.


    First of all..... there is splitting of hairs going on here. People that say the RootKit DRM was in another division of Sony and shouldn't apply here. Well they are ONE AND THE SAME when it comes to the parent company's REPUTATION. It's SONY...BMG. It's SONY...Pictures. It's SONY......Computer Entertainment. Sony's name is at the FOREFRONT of each of those divisions. And when ANY of those divisions screws up..... the consumer only thinks of one common name.....SONY....the parent company.

    It's like running a restaurant. Whether your cooks cooked the food wrong OR someone got a dirty dish cuz of a bad dishwasher OR your server was rude and not attentive... guess who's reputation is going to be tarnished or ruined? The name of the restaurant and it's owner.....that's who. You can fire that rude waiter, but the damage is already done to your business's name and reputation. And anything major like implementing DRM RootKit in ANY of your divisions, you best BELIEVE the parent company....SONY... gave it their blessing. Cuz doing DRM can have a MAJOR impact on your parent company's financials (and stock price) and your company's reputation. So of course Sony the parent company is gonna weigh in on things and have a say as to if it's green lighted or not.

    Now.... let's look at 3 issues being discussed here......RootKit DRM, RROD and MS's DRM 180 reversal.

    RROD...... was caused by a design flaw that was unknown at the time of the 360's production. No company is going to DELIBERATELY put in a flaw in the design that is later gonna cost them $1 BILLION to fix. They may have ignored the signs that it was a problem in the early days thinking it was small problem. But as the numbers increased, MS realized it was in fact a design flaw. As a result.... 1 1/2 years after the console's launch, they implemented a free replacement and 3 year extended warranty as a result. And also set out to fix the flaw.

    RootKit DRM..... this is a completely different situation. Unlike the RROD design flaw.....the DRM was a DELIBERATE ACT, not any result of an unintended design flaw. Unlike the RROD, Sony didn't need to figure out why it was bad.... they KNEW IT WAS BAD because it was no accident. And while it took Microsoft 3-6 months of RRODs to realize they had an UNINTENDED problem, Sony took 2 FULL YEARS to address a problem that was INTENTIONAL from the get-go.

    MS's DRM 180 reversal..... The DRM on the Xbox One, like the Sony's RootKit DRM...was INTENTIONAL. But with TWO major differences......

    #1: Microsoft NEVER IMPLEMENTED their DRM......Sony DID IMPLEMENT their DRM.

    #2: Microsoft reversed their stance on the DRM only 30 DAYS LATER. Sony's reversal time on their DRM stance? A full 2 YEARS later!

    Yet Sony is given a pass for playing their customers for suckers and treating them bad with their DRM, yet Microsoft is not given the same leeway for simply ATTEMPTING DRM....even though the reversed stance in 30 days Vs. Sony's 2 years. Acting like Sony is the MORALLY superior company when in fact they were the DIRTIER company cuz they actually went through with their DRM and had the NERVE to stick with it for 2 years DESPITE the backlash. And people are calling Sony the company that listens to it's customers.

    So even if the DRM didn't happen in Sony's Playstation division, it STILL goes to the heart of THE KIND OF COMPANY Sony REALLY IS. That is....Sony WILL screw their consumers with DRM IF THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. Cuz they did it for 2 years DESPITE the backlash.


    Oh.... and speaking again on RROD. What about Sony?

    Does anyone remember the PS1 design flaw? You know... the one because of a plastic part pertaining to the step motor that moves the CD-ROM's lens to read across the disc? It would wear down over time on ONE SIDE and people had to turn their PS1 on it's side OR upside down in order for it to keep reading the disc or otherwise you couldn't play games. They did fix the design flaw in later manufactured PS1 consoles, but they never offered a free fix or extended warranty because of it.

    The PS2 had the DRE problem.

    The PS3 had the YLOD.

    That's 3 different console generations of HARDWARE DESIGN FLAWS..... all made by SONY. So why aren't you guys ditching Sony over 3 generations of "SHODDY HARDWARE"? Again...... Sony given a pass.......MS crucified.

    So in SUMMARY....It comes down to the CHARACTER of two companies....

    Microsoft: Because of a design flaw, they replace the RRODed 360 consoles for FREE (even if it was out of warranty) and extend the warranty for 3 years. They TRIED to implement DRM, but reversed it in 30 DAYS due to backlash from consumers.

    Sony: DESPITE a design flaw in the PS1....PS2.....and PS3. Did their consumers get a free repair outside of their console's warranty? NOPE! Did they get extended warranties as a result? NOPE! They actually IMPLEMENTED DRM on their consumers. Did they reverse their stance on DRM due to a backlash? Yes........ 2 years later VS. Microsoft's 30 DAYS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    Wow... the responses here came fast and fierce. So I will try to address as much as possible.


    First of all..... there is splitting of hairs going on here. People that say the RootKit DRM was in another division of Sony and shouldn't apply here. Well they are ONE AND THE SAME when it comes to the parent company's REPUTATION. It's SONY...BMG. It's SONY...Pictures. It's SONY......Computer Entertainment. Sony's name is at the FOREFRONT of each of those divisions. And when ANY of those divisions screws up..... the consumer only thinks of one common name.....SONY....the parent company.

    It's like running a restaurant. Whether your cooks cooked the food wrong OR someone got a dirty dish cuz of a bad dishwasher OR your server was rude and not attentive... guess who's reputation is going to be tarnished or ruined? The name of the restaurant and it's owner.....that's who. You can fire that rude waiter, but the damage is already done to your business's name and reputation. And anything major like implementing DRM RootKit in ANY of your divisions, you best BELIEVE the parent company....SONY... gave it their blessing. Cuz doing DRM can have a MAJOR impact on your parent company's financials (and stock price) and your company's reputation. So of course Sony the parent company is gonna weigh in on things and have a say as to if it's green lighted or not.

    Now.... let's look at 3 issues being discussed here......RootKit DRM, RROD and MS's DRM 180 reversal.

    RROD...... was caused by a design flaw that was unknown at the time of the 360's production. No company is going to DELIBERATELY put in a flaw in the design that is later gonna cost them $1 BILLION to fix. They may have ignored the signs that it was a problem in the early days thinking it was small problem. But as the numbers increased, MS realized it was in fact a design flaw. As a result.... 1 1/2 years after the console's launch, they implemented a free replacement and 3 year extended warranty as a result. And also set out to fix the flaw.

    RootKit DRM..... this is a completely different situation. Unlike the RROD design flaw.....the DRM was a DELIBERATE ACT, not any result of an unintended design flaw. Unlike the RROD, Sony didn't need to figure out why it was bad.... they KNEW IT WAS BAD because it was no accident. And while it took Microsoft 3-6 months of RRODs to realize they had an UNINTENDED problem, Sony took 2 FULL YEARS to address a problem that was INTENTIONAL from the get-go.

    MS's DRM 180 reversal..... The DRM on the Xbox One, like the Sony's RootKit DRM...was INTENTIONAL. But with TWO major differences......

    #1: Microsoft NEVER IMPLEMENTED their DRM......Sony DID IMPLEMENT their DRM.

    #2: Microsoft reversed their stance on the DRM only 30 DAYS LATER. Sony's reversal time on their DRM stance? A full 2 YEARS later!

    Yet Sony is given a pass for playing their customers for suckers and treating them bad with their DRM, yet Microsoft is not given the same leeway for simply ATTEMPTING DRM....even though the reversed stance in 30 days Vs. Sony's 2 years. Acting like Sony is the MORALLY superior company when in fact they were the DIRTIER company cuz they actually went through with their DRM and had the NERVE to stick with it for 2 years DESPITE the backlash. And people are calling Sony the company that listens to it's customers.

    So even if the DRM didn't happen in Sony's Playstation division, it STILL goes to the heart of THE KIND OF COMPANY Sony REALLY IS. That is....Sony WILL screw their consumers with DRM IF THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. Cuz they did it for 2 years DESPITE the backlash.


    Oh.... and speaking again on RROD. What about Sony?

    Does anyone remember the PS1 design flaw? You know... the one because of a plastic part pertaining to the step motor that moves the CD-ROM's lens to read across the disc? It would wear down over time on ONE SIDE and people had to turn their PS1 on it's side OR upside down in order for it to keep reading the disc or otherwise you couldn't play games. They did fix the design flaw in later manufactured PS1 consoles, but they never offered a free fix or extended warranty because of it.

    The PS2 had the DRE problem.

    The PS3 had the YLOD.

    That's 3 different console generations of HARDWARE DESIGN FLAWS..... all made by SONY. So why aren't you guys ditching Sony over 3 generations of "SHODDY HARDWARE"? Again...... Sony given a pass.......MS crucified.

    So in SUMMARY....It comes down to the CHARACTER of two companies....

    Microsoft: Because of a design flaw, they replace the RRODed 360 consoles for FREE (even if it was out of warranty) and extend the warranty for 3 years. They TRIED to implement DRM, but reversed it in 30 DAYS due to backlash from consumers.

    Sony: DESPITE a design flaw in the PS1....PS2.....and PS3. Did their consumers get a free repair outside of their console's warranty? NOPE! Did they get extended warranties as a result? NOPE! They actually IMPLEMENTED DRM on their consumers. Did they reverse their stance on DRM due to a backlash? Yes........ 2 years later VS. Microsoft's 30 DAYS!
    So based off your logic I should hate every MS product because I think Windows 8 is a pile of crap and the Xbox division should go down in that same ship because of it? Or am I confused on what you are saying because that's what it sounds like.




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    @GreatSpaceKoaster- Why aren't I ditching Sony after 3 generations of shoddy hardware? Well because I didnt have any problems with my PS1 or PS2 ever. Only PS3. And I did say that if Sony screwed up PS4 and it had hardware issues and X1 didnt that I would switch because I hold Sony to the same standard. But you of course convienently ignored that post. Propably because it didnt suit your argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I guess we'll see how the Xbox One is when it is finally released, etc. Until then, I guess it's just "article" after "article" with the same info for us to talk about.
    Well you can always just not click on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ps3freak18 View Post
    So based off your logic I should hate every MS product because I think Windows 8 is a pile of crap and the Xbox division should go down in that same ship because of it? Or am I confused on what you are saying because that's what it sounds like.
    People weren't mad at the Xbox One because of the product, they were mad at DRM policies that were announced and decided FROM ABOVE.

    Do you see anybody differentiating the Xbox division from Microsoft's parent company? All I hear is that Microsoft is this big bad greedy company on here. Blanket statements like that. When Microsoft was called dirty for paying for DLC to appear on their console first or not to be on the PS3 at all, who do you think paid for that? The Xbox division? Yeah.....once MS the parent company kicked down that Windows money to the Xbox division FIRST after the parent company's APPROVAL of the plan.

    $#@! rolls downhill, not up.

    When a console launches, it's losing money for it's PARENT company, not it's division, cuz the division is in the hole as soon as a new console is launched. So if a division is in the red, yet has money to spend, who is REALLY the one making the decisions? The parent company ultimately. Sony's parent company controls the Playstation's purse strings and ultimately the decisions made.

    Have you NOT read the book on the making of the Xbox? The Xbox division heads were at war with the top brass at the parent company over a lot of decisions. The parent company has the ultimate say in the end. Same with Sony. And if you can be mad at Microsoft's parent company (since they, not the division, have ultimate say) for TRYING to implement DRM, then you should be just as mad and slander the character of Sony's parent company too, because Sony's parent company approved of DRM in one of their other divisions.

    That same Sony parent company would have approved of DRM on the PS4 IF...and ONLY IF... they thought they could get away with it. Not because they are somehow of a higher moral character than Microsoft.

    It goes back to the what I said earlier.......

    I don't give a $#@! WHY companies do good things for their customers, as long as it gets done.
    I don't care what Microsoft had PLANNED, I care about what they ultimately DO. Doesn't matter if it was only because of low pre-order numbers, backlash from the press or consumer complaints. The fact is.... DRM isn't happening and likely won't happen.

    It's the same with Sony. I don't care what DRM they pulled in their music division, did they ultimately put it on the PS4? NO! So if Sony didn't implement DRM on the PS4 and Microsoft didn't implement DRM on the Xbox One console, why should I make EITHER of them pay?

    For someone to boycott a company's product for an entire console generation for a DRM policy that lasted all of 30 days before being completely reversed, on a console that hasn't even been released yet.... is CHILDISH.


    To mistercrow .....

    Why aren't I ditching Sony after 3 generations of shoddy hardware? Well because I didnt have any problems with my PS1 or PS2 ever. Only PS3. And I did say that if Sony screwed up PS4 and it had hardware issues and X1 didnt that I would switch because I hold Sony to the same standard. But you of course convienently ignored that post. Propably because it didnt suit your argument.
    Well I'll use your own logic against you. Even though there were 3 generations of shoddy hardware from Sony, since it didn't AFFECT you, you are fine with still buying their hardware?

    Well Microsoft's DRM was never actually IMPLEMENTED......so it never did give it's consumers problems. Consumers may have had problems with the IDEA of implementing such a DRM policy, but it never affected anyone cuz the console will never be released to the public with a DRM system in place.

    So you may have a problem with Sony releasing shoddy hardware, but since their design flaws never affected YOU, you will continue buy their hardware. Well Microsoft's DRM policies didn't affect YOU, so why are you NOT gonna continue to game on the Xbox platform?

    Punish them for what they DO to you, not over something that never happened to you in the first place.

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    @GreatSpaceKoaster- I'm not continuing with Xbox because I already planned on not bothering with two consoles next gen. So I picked PS4 since I like the PS4 exclusive lineup better. MS forcing Kinect on me and expecting me to pay $100 more for their console as a result made that decision even easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    @GreatSpaceKoaster- I'm not continuing with Xbox because I already planned on not bothering with two consoles next gen. So I picked PS4 since I like the PS4 exclusive lineup better. MS forcing Kinect on me and expecting me to pay $100 more for their console as a result made that decision even easier.
    Now THOSE are reasonable reasons. Not because of DRM that never affected you in the first place. I went the long way, but you came up with credible reasons as a result. So it was worth it!

    KUDOS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    Now THOSE are reasonable reasons. Not because of DRM that never affected you in the first place. I went the long way, but you came up with credible reasons as a result. So it was worth it!

    KUDOS!
    Any reason a customer has for not buying a product is a reasonable one. If they don't like the company, that's reasonable. Say they didn't like the slanted design of the PS4, yep perfectly reasonable. Even Microsoft's initial proposal for DRM, even though it was never implemented, is a legit reason for anyone to say "nope, gonna pass". Why? Cuz it is their money and any reason is a legit reason for keeping their hard earned cash in the pocket.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    Well you can always just not click on them.
    Have to kinda click on them to read the info contained in the OP at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    @GreatSpaceKoaster- I'm not continuing with Xbox because I already planned on not bothering with two consoles next gen. So I picked PS4 since I like the PS4 exclusive lineup better. MS forcing Kinect on me and expecting me to pay $100 more for their console as a result made that decision even easier.
    I wasn't going to get one if it remained the way they initially reported how it was going to be. Lucky for my son, they turned it around just as I said they would lol. Otherwise, we would have been a PS4 only house as well. I still don't like that we have to pay for kinect that we more than likely won't even use.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Any reason a customer has for not buying a product is a reasonable one. If they don't like the company, that's reasonable. Say they didn't like the slanted design of the PS4, yep perfectly reasonable. Even Microsoft's initial proposal for DRM, even though it was never implemented, is a legit reason for anyone to say "nope, gonna pass". Why? Cuz it is their money and any reason is a legit reason for keeping their hard earned cash in the pocket.
    reasonable

    adjective

    1. (of a person) having sound judgment; fair and sensible.
    "no reasonable person could have objected"
    synonyms: sensible, rational, logical, fair, fair-minded, just, equitable; More
    intelligent, wise, levelheaded, practical, realistic;
    sound, reasoned, well-reasoned, valid, commonsensical;
    tenable, plausible, credible, believable
    "a reasonable man"

    based on good sense.
    "it seems a reasonable enough request"
    archaic
    (of a person or animal) able to think, understand, or form judgments by a logical process.
    "man is by nature reasonable"

    2. as much as is appropriate or fair; moderate.
    "a police officer may use reasonable force to gain entry"
    synonyms: within reason, practicable, sensible

    By your logic, I could shoot a man DEAD for the simple fact I hated the style of shoes he was wearing.....and that's perfectly "reasonable".

    People have the right to NOT buy something for any reason..... but it being a REASONABLE decision is a whole different animal.
    Last edited by GreatSpaceKoaster; 09-16-2013 at 14:07.

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    LMFAO!!!! when it comes to consumer products it's reasonable. You can use a human being as an comparison but not only is it a horrible comparison, it doesn't make one bit sense.
    Last edited by Demi_God; 09-16-2013 at 14:10. Reason: bah, changed a few things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    LMFAO!!!! when it comes to consumer products it's reasonable. You can use a human being as an comparison but not only is it a horrible comparison, it doesn't make one bit sense.
    How about explaining how I'm wrong and how what I said doesn't make sense? The word "reasonable" doesn't all of a sudden change it's definition when it's applied to decisions on purchases of consumer electronics.

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    GSK. Give up.

    There's no need to bring reason and logic into a thread when you have kids (and by kids i mean full grown adults) that are so heavily invested in a stupid console war. Give it up.

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