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    Next Gen CPU's: Ugh.. Really?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DrJay24
    What has changed? Are we saying the PPU in the PS3 is somehow more capable than 8 x86 Jaguar cores?

    The PS3 was GPU bound only because their CPU was a beast with, theoretically, 2x the performance of the 360. The 360 was CPU bound in most games, due to the in-order processor being capable of _very_ crap performance at times, and the GPU being easier to optimise for.

    For the HD DVD player, we offloaded everything we could to the GPU, we were running with something crazy like 10-15 frames in flight so that we could keep the ALUs busy, we used Memexport heavily for a GPGPU-like solution, and we were _still_ CPU bound.
    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=6466

    Originally Posted by bkilianAnd if the PS3 only used the PPU for CPU tasks, you'd be right. But audio, AI, and almost everything they could manage was shunted off to the SPE units. In some games, the PPU was mainly a glorified scheduler, handing out jobs for the rest of the CPU. So, yes, if you only count the PPU, it cannot outclass an 8 core jaguar. But if you include the entire CPU, it's twice as fast as an 8 core jaguar. In theory. In practice, not so much. The X1 CPU and the 360 CPU have the same FLOPS, in theory. In real running code, the X1 is about 6-8X faster. But optimize a VMX calculation on the 360, and it will execute twice as fast as the X1. Same for the PS3.


    http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=6472



    Bkilian is a former audio engineer for both 360 and Xbox One. God.. Is this really true?

    Update:



    Bkilian
    Did you miss the 6-8x faster bit? It's not all about peak flops. The occasions where you can get peak are few and far between, and more importantly, cost a fortune in development costs to get there. The new CPU is quite capable, don't write it off just yet.

    Although now you may understand why 360 backcompat is not really on the table.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 09-23-2013 at 16:33.


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    Well 1st and 3rd party devs were instrumental in PS4's creation so as long as they are happy with their new shiney toy, which was built to their liking, I'm not too fussed about how it stacks up against current gen tech.

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    I'm not worried about it. Especially when I see amazing looking games like KZ SF and Infamous SS.

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    Uh, the PS3 was CPU bound as far as graphics go. Only the PPU could send commands to the GPU, this is why most framerates sucked at the beginning of the gen. They had little choice but to offload tasks to the SPU's because a fair chunk of the PPU was being spent just rendering a scene.

    I only got that far in the post. Its 3:30 in morning here, need sleep. Will read rest tomorrow.


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    I always maintained the thought that we somehow took a step back in raw power and this only confirms it. Imagine what we'd have gotten if they had come out with a new iteration of CELL or a CPU derived from CELL that addressed CELL's few shortcomings and coupled that with a CELL like derivative for the GPU. I'd wager that what we'd be looking at today would be about as much a leap forward, if not more so, than what we saw when PS3 first shipped to market. This isn't a knock on PS4 and it shouldn't be construed as such. However, we don't really know just how far performance in this generation will really advance. I think that ultimately, the x86 architecture will prove itself quite dated compared to what the x64 architecture is really capable of.

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    all I got from that was that it wasn't a normal processor and I think we all know this already. The problems for the cell were development issues. The cell processor wasn't actually designed for gaming consoles or gaming in mind, while it did do the job, IBM designed it originally for servers (this is what I remember reading a few years ago).

    What I remember about the cell processor was that it took some of the responsibilities from the GPU. In this case that is why the cell was more capable. Now it's pretty clear if they would have used the cell with a really nice GPU that didn't underperform, the cell processor would have shined like a bright star. the problem is still there, that it was a $#@! to develop games. in terms of processing alone it isn't more capable than an 8 core, but for what else it does, that makes it more capable. hmmmmm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    all I got from that was that it wasn't a normal processor and I think we all know this already. The problems for the cell were development issues. The cell processor wasn't actually designed for gaming consoles or gaming in mind, while it did do the job, IBM designed it originally for servers (this is what I remember reading a few years ago).

    What I remember about the cell processor was that it took some of the responsibilities from the GPU. In this case that is why the cell was more capable. Now it's pretty clear if they would have used the cell with a really nice GPU that didn't underperform, the cell processor would have shined like a bright star. the problem is still there, that it was a $#@! to develop games. in terms of processing alone it isn't more capable than an 8 core, but for what else it does, that makes it more capable. hmmmmm
    Next gen console CPU's are tablet CPU's. They're not desktop grade processors.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Next gen console CPU's are tablet CPU's. They're not desktop grade processors.
    Why are both of them so expensive at launch? What is driving the price up as i take it the CPU's are cheap as chips?
    Forza 5, Fifa 14, Battlefield 4 & Watchdogs - The Perfect Launch Line Up!

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    Quote Originally Posted by UkHardcore View Post
    Why are both of them so expensive at launch? What is driving the price up as i take it the CPU's are cheap as chips?
    Ps4 using expensive RAM, xbox1 has kinect



    Thank you itachi

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    Quote Originally Posted by UkHardcore View Post
    Why are both of them so expensive at launch? What is driving the price up as i take it the CPU's are cheap as chips?
    GPU, memory\esram, blu-ray player, construction, CPU, controllers, Kinect (XB1), etc.

    For $400 the PS4 is a steal, don't get me wrong.

    I'm not expecting i7 Quads or anything. I think the GPU's are right where they should be and the memory went above and beyond expectations.. I'm just worried about the CPU's.


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    A 4 Core regular Jaguar is a bit anemic, but, an 8 Core Jaguar is quite acceptable.
    Now we get to see if spending 1.6 billion transistors on 32mb of Embedded Static RAM was a good idea instead of 4 more CU and wiring it up to a much higher speed general bus.

    The arguing is academic, we'll see now if all consumer pc video cards are ripoffs with their 2-6 GB of GDDR5 RAM they are selling, of, if they should just have ESRAM.

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    350 isnt as expensive as 400+ the PS3 cost at launch

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Next gen console CPU's are tablet CPU's. They're not desktop grade processors.
    I think that may be a little exaggerated. Tablets generally are on ARM processors that are considerably weaker than these processors. These processors are intended for notebook computers and mini PCs. To be fair, there are tablets that run Core I5 processors, which would be nearly desktop grade. They are cheaper processors with low power consumption though.

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    Right, it's worth noting as John said that the 'tablet' configurations for Jaguar are normally 4 cores (2-4, technically) while both next gen machines have 8.


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    Didn't the Cell have other constraints outside of itself that kept it from really performing? Or does this theoretical conversation take that into consideration?

    InstaEdit: Give the PS3 a real (current) GPU and 8gigs of XDR of GDDR5 Ram Wouldn't it perform up to snuff compared to the PS4 and XBone (the more technical minded chime in if you feel like it otherwise just a mental blurb on my part )
    Last edited by D3seeker; 09-23-2013 at 22:18.


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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    350 isnt as expensive as 400+ the PS3 cost at launch
    Yes, and try to build a PC for $400! I think the power supply and morherboard cost nearly that much in my desktop...


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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    A 4 Core regular Jaguar is a bit anemic, but, an 8 Core Jaguar is quite acceptable.
    Now we get to see if spending 1.6 billion transistors on 32mb of Embedded Static RAM was a good idea instead of 4 more CU and wiring it up to a much higher speed general bus.

    The arguing is academic, we'll see now if all consumer pc video cards are ripoffs with their 2-6 GB of GDDR5 RAM they are selling, of, if they should just have ESRAM.
    They are not 8 real physical cores, it not the same as let say an intel 6-core i7.

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    Can someone explain why its x86 not x64 when its actually 64 bit. I am noob BTW

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    GPGPU is the key. Once developers are done threading the hell out of their game-code to optimize CPU performance, they will move on to GPGPU and that is where the PS4 will really start to shine. It will take a couple years to be blunt honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by roy8846 View Post
    Can someone explain why its x86 not x64 when its actually 64 bit. I am noob BTW

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    X64 is a marketecture phrase. 64-Bit is not all-encompassing as there are various different kinds of processors that are 64-bit. X86 is the underlying basis for PCs as that is what Windows code-set is based on. Hence, why games that run in DOS will run on a Windows 7 machine, still.
    Last edited by Lefein; 09-23-2013 at 22:30.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Next gen console CPU's are tablet CPU's. They're not desktop grade processors.
    Consoles never have been though.
    Being in order etc made the last gen terrible CPU's in terms of actual performance.
    Last edited by mynd; 09-23-2013 at 23:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    GPU, memory\esram, blu-ray player, construction, CPU, controllers, Kinect (XB1), etc.

    For $400 the PS4 is a steal, don't get me wrong.

    I'm not expecting i7 Quads or anything. I think the GPU's are right where they should be and the memory went above and beyond expectations.. I'm just worried about the CPU's.
    whenever I see someone wanting to build a computer for gaming, the most important thing is not the CPU but more the GPU. In a way you are kind of expecting an i7 or one of AMD's current FX series chips but that just isn't going to happen and it really isn't needed. The difference in cpu's usage would probably be like 5fps maybe 7fps. The strain is really going to be on the GPU this time around. People are putting to much emphasis on the CPU when they shouldn't be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    whenever I see someone wanting to build a computer for gaming, the most important thing is not the CPU but more the GPU. In a way you are kind of expecting an i7 or one of AMD's current FX series chips but that just isn't going to happen and it really isn't needed. The difference in cpu's usage would probably be like 5fps maybe 7fps. The strain is really going to be on the GPU this time around. People are putting to much emphasis on the CPU when they shouldn't be.
    Keep in mind some of those people aren't just using their computers for gaming

    Still in over their heads considering they decided they need to build a pc for their uses but yeah.


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    Quote Originally Posted by D3seeker View Post
    Keep in mind some of those people aren't just using their computers for gaming

    Still in over their heads considering they decided they need to build a pc for their uses but yeah.

    yeah, if you are going to use other programs besides using it for gaming then you would want a bigger cpu. but just for gaming you don't need such a big cpu. heck even the apu's out there right now are good. even though the GPU in them kind of sucks or is still lacking behind, the PS4's apu has a better GPU in it already. The difference is, is that the cpu portion of the current apu's are perfectly fine for, it's the gpu that needs to be beefed up.
    Last edited by Demi_God; 09-23-2013 at 23:26.

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    Lol. It's a joke to even consider the Cell being more powerful than an eight core AMD processor. To be under the misguided presumption that 6 mini cores are more powerful and more capable than 8 full-fledged cores is just not rational.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reasonable_doubt View Post
    They are not 8 real physical cores, it not the same as let say an intel 6-core i7.
    Other way around.

    Jaguars are actually "8 physical cores" whereas i7 Quads are 4 physical cores 8 virtual (double threaded).

    Edit: in the console context I mean.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 09-23-2013 at 23:25.


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