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  1. #1
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    AMD/DICE unveils Mantle, a console-like low-level PC graphics API

    Integrated in Frostbite 3








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    Nice! It's PC with a console-like low-level graphics API! That's definitely exciting!

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    This has the potential to be really awesome... Or really bad.

    Depends on how it's accepted and how 'open' it really is like AMD is claiming. Wouldn't be so hot if we got a fragmented user base.. But hopefully DX will always be 'the base line'. I'm curious to see what Nvidia will do and if its possible they will cooperate with AMD on this... But the odds of that happening on either company's part are zero.

    So, if Nvidia was blind sided by this we may see them scrambling hard to find something they can cobble together to compete. Or, they knew this was going to happen all along and planned accordingly.

    This in conjunction with Steam OS is amazing.. There is no reason why this tech won't work on the new OS and given it is much, much, lighter\efficient than Windows performance should be even better!

    Now the real question is... Will EA go along with Valve? Will they put their games on Steam or make a SteamOS\Linux Origin port?

    Right now the only real thing standing to ruin alot of this is EA.

    Edit: Or.. Maybe not

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=157
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 09-26-2013 at 01:44.


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    It says MAntle is open so if Nvidia want to they can port it to their architecture, it seems AMD are devolving tech and allowing it to be utilised by competitors unlike Nvidia keeping things to themselves.

    So now we have Direct X, OpenGL and MAntle for PC graphics APIs?

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    Looks to me like everyone is trying to write Microsoft out of the gaming picture.
    No need for windows or $#@!ty direct x is a good thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    So now we have Direct X, OpenGL and MAntle for PC graphics APIs?
    Yes.
    I really hope Intel and Nvidia would use Mantle as well, getting 3 new low level APIs wouldn't be optimal situation. (Pretty much why we moved to D3D and OpenGL..)
    Last edited by jlippone; 09-26-2013 at 08:07.
    'no, no one in their sane mind uses OpenGL on PS3' - Repi
    'nope, PS3 uses a wonderful low-level API called libgcm' - Repi

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    I'm optimistic but also not particularly hopeful for this technology.

    It's the usual issues, market fragmentation can lead to potential performance advances but it can disadvantage the end users.

    I do wonder how many developers will bother with this in the long run. I suspect most will stick with Dx and OpenGL.

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    Definitely will buy this card its alot of bang for the dollars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sith View Post
    Definitely will buy this card its alot of bang for the dollars.
    its not a "card" per se, its an application Interface (insert "Program" in the middle for API). All AMD cards above 7xxx series run the GCN architecture if im not mistaken...

    PC space just got a little bit more interesting it seems
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    oh yes, yes it did! i wish i didn't get so burned by AMD previously. Seems they are moving in the right direction which is all good for competition. i'm still staying green though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    its not a "card" per se, its an application Interface (insert "Program" in the middle for API). All AMD cards above 7xxx series run the GCN architecture if im not mistaken...

    PC space just got a little bit more interesting it seems
    Thank you for clarifying that for me i didn't watch all of the livestream.

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  16. #13
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    Well.. If Carmack is right, than SteamOS won't benefit much at all from Mantle and it could 'level' the playing field between it and windows performance wise for games.

    That could hurt Valve's efforts.

    For me, though, I'd still jump away from Windows if linux gaming went full steam. The overall performance advantages of linux over windows, plus it being free and giving me full control (and there are a ton of features about linux i love), would already have me prefer it.

    It's just that, as a gamer, I couldn't play on it. Always killed it for me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    For me, though, I'd still jump away from Windows if linux gaming went full steam. The overall performance advantages of linux over windows, plus it being free and giving me full control (and there are a ton of features about linux i love), would already have me prefer it.

    It's just that, as a gamer, I couldn't play on it. Always killed it for me.
    I agree completely. And the part in bold is exactly how i feel.

  18. #15
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    We had a chance to sit down with AMD Product Manager Devon Nekechuck to see how AMD’s new top dog R9 290X stacks up against the green team’s best single-GPU offering. According to Nekechuck, even though the R9 290X uses a 438 square mm die, which is significantly smaller than the Titan’s 550 sq. mm GK110 offering, it “will definitely compete with the GTX 780 and Titan.” When we asked what this means in real-world terms, he stated, “with Battlefield 4 running with Mantel (AMD’s new graphics API), the card will be able to ‘ridicule’ the Titan in terms of performance.

    When we asked him what he meant by “ridicule,” he simply stated that it will run Battlefield 4 “much faster than the Titan.” Again, this is provided that you run the game using AMD's Mantel API, which is set to launch in December.
    http://www.maximumpc.com/amd_r9_290x..._battlefield_4

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    Isnt this reminiscent of the mid to late 90s when graphics vendors pretty much all had their own APIs and devs had to program each specifically for them? Example 3DFX's Glide.

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    Very interesting and unexpected. Have no idea how it will play out but I hope it proves to be a competent API because free extra performance out of your expensive video cards is good for everybody. Thing is it will probably be either widely adopted or it will die a quick death. There's not much middle ground there

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    There are notable differences between Mantle and Glide back in the 90s. Glide was a need back then. DirectX was in early development and afterwards, developers opted for a more compatible API when Ati and nVidia took over. Also, 3DFX didn't have the hegemony in the consoles GPU Hardware.

    This time, it's the other way arounds (or at least is what AMD is trying to tell us) It's developers who's been asking for years for a dedicated API but in the past scenario it just didn't make sense for multi platform makers, having nVidia installed on the PS3.

    If a low level API was ever to be successful again, it was now, and AMD took a big step forward which I applaud. Success is of course not guaranteed, but man, things are getting really exciting in PC Gaming.

    It's also a clever move to have it enabled with an update after launch , so gamers can actually notice the improvements on AMD Hardware. In the years of the internet, viral stuff matters, and having customers excited about it is a very good start.

    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Isnt this reminiscent of the mid to late 90s when graphics vendors pretty much all had their own APIs and devs had to program each specifically for them? Example 3DFX's Glide.
    Last edited by Aquanox; 09-26-2013 at 21:38.
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    Sony has their own API so it make no differences now, as for MS/Xbone = not gonna happen. Only thing left is PC market, but OpenGL was(is still?) better than DX so good luck with that. Maybe they are aiming for tablet devices, actually the WiiU can take advantage of mantel...it needs it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reasonable_doubt View Post
    Sony has their own API so it make no differences now, as for MS/Xbone = not gonna happen. Only thing left is PC market, but OpenGL was(is still?) better than DX so good luck with that. Maybe they are aiming for tablet devices, actually the WiiU can take advantage of mantel...it needs it.
    Consoles have always had their own APIs.. Ps1, Ps2, Ps3, ps4.. and same for Xboxes.. (they do not use traditional Direct3D or OpenGL.)

    In terms of performance and what abilities of GPU can be used Mantle should be a lot better than GL or D3D.
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    What’s not being said, but what becomes increasingly hinted at as we read through AMD’s material is not just that Mantle is a low level API, but rather Mantle is the low level API. As in it’s either a direct copy or a very close derivative of the Xbox One’s low level graphics API. All of the pieces are there; AMD will tell you from the start that Mantle is designed to leverage the optimization work done for games on the next generation consoles, and furthermore Mantle can even use the Direct3D High Level Shader Language (HLSL), the high level shader language Xbox One shaders will be coded against in the first place. Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part. But it’s speculation that we believe is well grounded. Based on what we know thus far, we believe Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API brought to the PC.

    If indeed Mantle is the Xbox One’s low level API, then this changes the frame of reference for Mantle dramatically. No longer is Mantle just a new low level API for AMD GCN cards, whose success is defined by whether AMD can get developers to create games specifically for it, but Mantle becomes the bridge for porting over Xbox One games to the PC. Developers who make extensive use of the Xbox One low level API would be able to directly bring over large pieces of their rendering code to the PC and reuse it, and in doing so maintain the benefits of using that low-level code in the first place. Mantle will not (and cannot) preclude the need for developers to also do a proper port to Direct3D – after all AMD is currently the minority party in the discrete PC graphics space – but it does provide the option of keeping that low level code, when in the past that would never be an option.

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    AMD said in the keynote that Mantle is scalable, So I think Mantle and the APIs used in ps4 and xbone will be very similar.

    As Devs code for the PS4 and Xbone games, they will automatically be coding for Mantle in the PC realm, with a bit of jiggery pokery, it will be scaled to exploit the more of the power/feature of GCN GPUs that is usually hidden by Direct X.

    The fragmentation arguement is being overblown, It's still likely 2 be Direct X api, and Mantle, xbone and ps4 API that should be very similar, Open GL. So 3 drastically different APIs mainly, which is less fractious than the last generation.

    This is beautiful, my home PC is packing a AMD7850 which I am told is GCN and hence able to benefit from Mantle. I think AMD just increased the useful life of my GPU.

    :P


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