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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    I was alerted to this thread through a link over on the UK official PS4 forum and, since it's a topic I'm particularly interested in, thought I'd pop over and join in

    I agree with the main thrust of what @Terrarim is trying to say. Not sure he's putting the argument across succinctly, then again I doubt I could either!

    The PS4 seems to be to be a very cleverly designed bit of kit that will prove, long term, to be worth a little more than what we perhaps currently perceive to be the sum of it's parts. I think too many try too hard to compare with PC's and in doing so misunderstand the PS4's hardware design. The one thing it is not is "based on PC architecture". Far from it. Really it just shares a common CPU instruction set and basic GPU technology.

    There are two innovations in the PS4 hardware that on their own would be interesting enough, but together? At face value the PS4 has a pretty weak CPU. It's only when you look at the memory architecture and the GPU modifications do you realise why a more powerful CPU isn't needed. The PS4 is designed heavily around GPGPU calculations.

    Although PC's have had this technology for a while, there's nothing in the PC world that has been as heavily modified for the purpose of performing these tasks. GPGPU technology really is still in it's infancy, I don't think it's currently used in PC's anywhere near as much as it could be. PC's suffer a lot by being held back by the lowest common denominator.

    Gaming on PC's is still largely a single threaded 32bit CPU centric affair. Again held back by the lowest common denominator - Windows XP gamers. Both the XBox One and the PS4 on the other hand are more heavily multithreaded 64bit affairs, with the PS4 being more GPU centric.

    Memory wise the hUMA architecture will ultimately free up a lot of wasted clock cycles. Currently GPU data has to be copied to the GPU's memory and back again by the CPU. Just how many clock cycles does it take the CPU to copy 2Gb of data into graphics RAM? Unified memory will get rid of these wasted clock cycles and instead only needs to process on instruction to pass to the GPU 1 memory pointer for the location of the code the GPU needs to process. Massive speed gain - PC's can't do this!

    It's when you combine the enhanced GPGPU (8 ACE's with 64 queues) with the efficiency of the hUMA memory bus that you start to unlock the true potential of the PS4's hardware.

    Ultimately the PS4 and XBox One's designs are limited by their output media. The TV. Given that the TV set will set a hard limit of 1080p60 gaming for the foreseeable future (4k might be affordable with PS5) does either console actually need any greater graphics power than they have been given?

    In truth the answers to this isn't going to be know for another year, maybe more, yet. We need to wait until devs have coded new game engines designed around the consoles hardware - hUMA and GPGPU - before we start seeing games that really do show off what these consoles are capable of and how they do or don't compare to PC's.

    Let's face it, the initial batch of games are going to be based upon game engines ported from PC or older games consoles. Based on CPU centric coding and a split memory architecture.
    I would add though that due to the time to triangle (as fast as PS1) on the PS4 were going to see the GPGPU much earlier in the cycle this time (less effort on getting good resolutions with standard next gen graphicsmean more time and money available for GPGPU, Huma utilisation. Due to it being PC arhitechture lots of middleware etc will work out of the gate with minor tweaking. Added to that they have access to AMD API's for leveraging the AMD componants and they have their own software like Spurs that they can use to leverage the GPGPU. With the PS3 there was nothing to speak of to help the developers with it was here you are get on with it.

    Also please remember that allot of the funtionalty of the CPU, GPU and unifed fast memory was on the list of external devs i.e. 3rd parties some who work extensivly with PC etc.
    The PS3 looks more than good enough for me .

  2. #27
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    I think the PS4 may use AMD's mantle which is another answer to Dx, which is obviously not reliant to microsoft. now I've been hearing a lot of good things about it. The PS4 may either use it which gives direct access to basically everything now I've heard the opposite with DX from other people and even a few videos. now I could be wrong but I doubt the pros on Mantle are bull$#@!. That is if it is being used or going to be used. hmmm

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    Terarrim, you are just making things up one after another. It's too much to respond to all the misinformation you are putting out. But if you are going to start actually posting evidence, then start with at least proving that PS4 runs DirectX 11.2 and go from there. The PS4 is not some supercharged machine. It's a game console on a tight silicon budget.
    Again if your going to accuse me of misiniformation please point out where I am making things up I have numerous quotes and links to back up what I have been saying.

    As for your demand your wish is my command did a quick google search the link is here:

    http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=64206

    It shows a Sony GPU presentation slide screen shot which shows that it has Direct X 11.2 and OpenGL 4.4.

    Again you misquoted me Mark Cerney claimed that the GPU was supercharged not me if you disagree with him you should take it up with him (the lead designer of the PS4). I can find and quote and link that interview to if you wish.

    You asked me to show you games as examples and I have, you asked me to show you proof of DirectX 11.2 and I have don't you think its very impolite to accuse me of making things up when I have shown evidance to the contrary?

    I can also find quotes and links to Huma and how it will help with GPGPU to if you wish.

    Lastly I started posting evidance as soon as you started calling me out if you look through every one of my replys other than the OP.
    The PS3 looks more than good enough for me .

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  5. #29
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    delete please double post.
    The PS3 looks more than good enough for me .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    I think the PS4 may use AMD's mantle which is another answer to Dx, which is obviously not reliant to microsoft. now I've been hearing a lot of good things about it. The PS4 may either use it which gives direct access to basically everything now I've heard the opposite with DX from other people and even a few videos. now I could be wrong but I doubt the pros on Mantle are bull$#@!. That is if it is being used or going to be used. hmmm
    I believe that Sony and MS would have access to Mantle as it is a low level API to its video cards. And there are claims from AMD that it makes its GPU's much more efficient claiming that their new flagship GPU that will be coming out together with the mantle will smoke Nvidia's Titan on Battelfield 4 due to the DICE team using Mantle instead of/as well as direct X 11.1

    The thing is though that Mantle gives devs low level access to the GPU architecture Sony and MS should also have the same low level API's to other parts of the APU as well. I would imagine that both Sony and MS will have different cusomiations regarding this low level wrapper for instance Sony using Spurs to help it with GPGPU tasks. I would imagine that at some stage the entire APU wrapper will enable the hardware to work as Huma compliant and getting the advantages from it.
    Last edited by Terarrim; 09-29-2013 at 20:50.
    The PS3 looks more than good enough for me .

  7. #31
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    Until I see more games pushing 1080p 60FPS from ps4, I have to disagree. Same with xb1. Maybe the next batch of titles will accomplish it.

  8. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Until I see more games pushing 1080p 60FPS from ps4, I have to disagree. Same with xb1. Maybe the next batch of titles will accomplish it.
    I'm not sure that is a good marker to be honest. Wipeout is running a variable framerate but usually hitting 1080p at 60fps and thats on the PS3 and im sure if they made sacrifices to the graphics they could have it at 1080p 60fps non variable. Surely it should not just be about resolution and frames per second but other things to like draw distance, motion blur, dof, distructablity, shaders, textures, amount of enemys on screen etc etc.

    Surely each game should be judged on its own merits and not to an arbterery 1080p and 60fps standard.
    The PS3 looks more than good enough for me .

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  10. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    I think the PS4 may use AMD's mantle which is another answer to Dx,
    I wouldn't worry about Mantle so much. It's debatable whether devs would find such divisive API useful, time will tell. What's more important are Sony own API's GNM and GNMX. GNM sounds very similar to Mantle in concept, a low level API allowing greater access to hardware than Direct-X does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terarrim View Post
    It shows a Sony GPU presentation slide screen shot which shows that it has Direct X 11.2 and OpenGL 4.4.
    To be clear - the PS4 will not use and will not be compatible with Direct-X (a Microsoft proprietary API). The GPU inside the PS4 supports features that Direct-X 11.2 provides access to on a Windows PC/XBox.

    What the PS4 does have is Sony's proprietary GNMX API, that is a subset of the core GNM API, which is (from what I can gather) heavily based on Direct-X thus making it as easy as possible for devs to port between the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Until I see more games pushing 1080p 60FPS from ps4, I have to disagree. Same with xb1. Maybe the next batch of titles will accomplish it.
    As I said in my first post, we have to wait until new game engines are built around the new consoles architecture before we'll see the graphical fidelity you are asking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terarrim View Post
    Surely each game should be judged on its own merits and not to an arbterery 1080p and 60fps standard.
    While I agree with that 100%, the question comes from games like Watch_Dogs being rumored to run at 720p30. And the answer is pretty much launch games are not going to be heavily optimised to the new hardware. For the most part games engines are being ported from existing systems (I'm aware Watch_Dogs is a new engine).

    It's back to the CPU/split Ram centric architecture vs GPU/unified Ram centric architecture.

    These consoles are designed to run on 1080p60 TV's for the next 5-8 years. That should tell you everything you need to know about their hardware design.

  11. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terarrim View Post
    Again if your going to accuse me of misiniformation please point out where I am making things up I have numerous quotes and links to back up what I have been saying.

    As for your demand your wish is my command did a quick google search the link is here:

    http://beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=64206

    It shows a Sony GPU presentation slide screen shot which shows that it has Direct X 11.2 and OpenGL 4.4.

    Again you misquoted me Mark Cerney claimed that the GPU was supercharged not me if you disagree with him you should take it up with him (the lead designer of the PS4). I can find and quote and link that interview to if you wish.

    You asked me to show you games as examples and I have, you asked me to show you proof of DirectX 11.2 and I have don't you think its very impolite to accuse me of making things up when I have shown evidance to the contrary?

    I can also find quotes and links to Huma and how it will help with GPGPU to if you wish.

    Lastly I started posting evidance as soon as you started calling me out if you look through every one of my replys other than the OP.
    Here's one. You claimed that PC does raytraced audio, collision detection, and physics very inefficiently compared to the PS4 due to the fact that the PS4 has greater bandwidth for communication between the CPU and GPU and has in order of times efficiency due to how the architecture is both closed box, and has greater memory bandwidth. You also act as if PC not having GNC, PCIE 3.0, and DirectX 11.2 will have any significant effect.

    1. communication between the CPU and GPU has minimal effect if the GPU is doing all of this CPU work. An old original PCI slot from back in the early 2000's would have enough bandwidth for the GPU to tell the CPU where it put all the particles in the game world.

    2. The PS4 does not have in order of times magnitude efficiency over PC due to the API of a closed box. You haven't shown any proof of this. It's just an empty claim.

    3. The PS4 does not have greater memory bandwidth than PC. AMD has single die GPUs with 264GB/s memory bandwidth. That is well over 172GB/s of the PS4.

    4. PC not having GNC, PCIE 3.0, and DirectX 11.2 does not have any significant effect.

    Deep Down's physics are very simplistic. The tornado and the fire spewing are not different Unreal Tournament 3's or Arkham Asylum's smoke simulation other than just nicer textures on the particles and a few simulated sparks. You are just eluded to believe it is better than what it is because the modern shading and shadowing tricks you into thinking the physics are better than what they are. If you look again, you'll see those particles for the flames and the tornado wind are massive. It's not a physics simulation of 10,000 small particles; it's just a physics simulation of a hundred large particles.

  12. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foraeli View Post
    So it's been inefficient to do compute physics on a GPGPU for PC for all these years but not for PS4's GPGPU? The PS4 smokes PC in terms of GPGPU capablitites? The PS4 has DirectX 11.2? DirectX 11.2 will give a relevant boost to physics calculations in a way that will make for the GPU only being a mid-range card? You seem to be fabricating this all out of thin air. Why not post a game that actually outdoes what PC has been doing instead?

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  14. #36
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    Terarrim, you've used a lot of words to say things that most people who know anything about gaming technology wouldn't contest. The only real exception I can find is your utterly absurd order of magnitude claim.

    The PS4's design is a novel integration of outdated, and relatively low power (as in energy) PC components. Yes, the novel and tightly integrated design will allow developers to get a lot more performance out of those components than if those components were assembled in an ordinary PC. The PS4 is using mid-range PC components in a state of the art configuration. Is anyone in the know seriously contending against that?

    I'm excited for both of the new consoles, though more so for the PS4, and I'm excited to add one to my entertainment room, right next to my gaming PC. There are going to be a lot of really fun, and great looking games on both new consoles.

    And yet I'm much more excited about PC gaming with this new console generation, because much more than the start of the last console generation, PC gaming hardware is simply much further ahead, already, in terms of available raw performance. Sure, it's no secret that gaming PCs brute force their advantage. But, the efficiency advantage gained for the new consoles is likely not going to help them gain as much ground this generation, simply because the raw performance gap is already so wide, and after the consoles release it's quickly going to get even wider.

    But, it looks like it could be even be worse than that, and even more exciting on the PC side, and that's because of the apparent trajectory that the PC industry may be moving in -
    vis-à-vis console-like hardware access. A recent BF4 presentation reports that AMD's Mantle API is returning a 9x increase in draw calls, IIRC, and it should facilitate even simpler cross-platform development to PC (or the other way around) since, for the first time, every major platform can be developed using much of the same API. AMD's upcoming R9 290 GPU is said to produce roughly 5TFLOPS. Even with the efficiency advantages the PS4 has in unification and integration, that's an astounding performance difference. And now consider that AMD's Mantle API could nearly wipe the new console's efficiency advantage away, allowing developers to leverage much more of the enormous performance advantage on the PC more efficiently and more easily than ever before. If AMD succeeds with Mantle, the performance gap between the consoles and high end gaming PCs is going to quickly become absolutely massive at the high end, and it's already quite large compared to console's which haven't even released yet.
    Last edited by sneezymarble; 09-29-2013 at 23:02.
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  16. #37
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    The PS4 will be cutting edge and outperform some of the best PCs out there. No doubt about it.


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    I don't know about that. It's kind of oblivious to see a bulletin saying the PS4 supports DirectX and OpenGL feature sets means that the PS4 API is running a modified DirectX. Not only that, the PS4 isn't going to be running a modified DirectX AND a modified OpenGL API. It makes no sense at all to have two seperate APIs for one hardware.

  18. #39
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    Long long time no see Terarrim
    And I agree, just look for my American Muscle Vs Japanese Tuner metaphor that everyone hates lol


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    Efficiency will always do wonders for a slower machine but the PC's brute force of more current hardware will always pull through.

    It's the way it has always been and the way it will continue for a long while yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sneezymarble View Post
    The PS4's design is a novel integration of outdated, and relatively low power (as in energy) PC components.
    That's just the point, the PS4 parts are neither "Outdated" or "PC components". Trying to claim such misses the importance of the customisations that have been done.

    Jaguar APU are only just coming to market as 4-core parts not 8-core. The Southern Islands GPU core is only just being updated to Volcanic Islands. DX11.2 feature support is new. No PC GPU has been as heavily modified for GPGPU performance based on Sony's work with SPURS and CELL. hUMA memory just doesn't exist for PC's at all (although AMD do plan to produce motherboard chipsets that support it in the near future).

    A recent BF4 presentation reports that AMD's Mantle API is returning a 9x increase in draw calls, IIRC, and it should facilitate even simpler cross-platform development to PC (or the other way around) since, for the first time, every major platform can be developed using much of the same API.
    The problem with Mantle for PC is that it's AMD only. Why would a developer choose to use it? Immediately your game is inaccessible to the nVidia owner half of the PC gaming community. Or do you wast extra resources writing the game twice in two different API's?

    OpenGL rules the cross platform roost because it's available across EVERY platform (Windows, Linux, Mac, Consoles). Direct-X is there for Windows and XBox with GNMX making ports to PS4 easier. In both cases nVidia owners are not left out in the cold - why use Mantle?

    AMD's upcoming R9 290 GPU is said to produce roughly 5TFLOPS. Even with the efficiency advantages the PS4 has in unification and integration, that's an astounding performance difference.
    A couple of points here. No body's denying at top end a PC can brute force it's way clear of any console - of course it can. Your comparing a £1000 GPU to a £400 complete system. David v. Goliath!

    But also, why plug a 5TFLOP GPU in to a 1080p60 TV set, sounds like a massive waste of resources to me. If you fix that resolution and frame rate I bet you can drop down to more mid range cards (saving money) without having to drop settings such as AA? The GTX Titan and R9-290 will just have (alot) more idle time.

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    The problem with Mantle for PC is that it's AMD only. Why would a developer choose to use it? Immediately your game is inaccessible to the nVidia owner half of the PC gaming community. Or do you wast extra resources writing the game twice in two different API's?

    OpenGL rules the cross platform roost because it's available across EVERY platform (Windows, Linux, Mac, Consoles). Direct-X is there for Windows and XBox with GNMX making ports to PS4 easier. In both cases nVidia owners are not left out in the cold - why use Mantle?


    And considering Nvidia has a far larger share of the dedicated market than AMD it would cause additional issues. I'm also concerned that it might cause issues down the road from AMD, low level code is great initially in terms of speed and flexibility but as hardware advances, maintaining backwards compatibility can start to become a real issue on both software and the hardware level.

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    Everyone wants 1080p 60fps locked on next gen consoles but i just dont see that happening heres a video of crysis 3 with a gtx 690 on high settings and look at the frame rates.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85xGddureKY

    8 gigs a ram here also if Sony has found a way to use coding more efficently with lesser hardware then more power to Sony for doing so.
    Last edited by hood; 09-30-2013 at 07:43.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terarrim View Post
    Hello I haven't posted here for a long long time. In fact I was most posted most during pre and post launch of PS3 although I love the PS3 for what it is a games machine the actual hardware specs really intrested me and I spent hours reading everything I could on the Cell and anything else I could get my hand on even reading links to detailed spec sheats and discussions on the IBM forums in the engineers section. I then discussed my thoughts and impressions and made predictions on what the Cell could mean for games with the PS3 (it would be very intresting to read those posts again some time to see how much I got right/wrong).

    The time is with us again and I have taken a keen interest in what Sony is doing with the PS4 it is much harder to gauge this as there are not much in techincal documentation or cpu benches like there was with the Cell to base any of my theories or predicitons on. Therefore allot of my theories this time is more supposition and not supported by hard facts but based on what I have managed to read on the varius aspects of both the hardware and software from AMD, Cerny (Sony), Some of the more reputible Beyond 3D information on things like huma and tidbits from devs on forums and twitter.

    Why am I posting this after all this time. Well I have just read lots of forums including Neogaf and its getting to me that people are writing off the PS4 as only as powerfull as a medium range PC (or even less powerfull in some cases) and the often addage that the hardware because it is based on 86x 64 base processor and Southern Island GPU's are out of date and old tech (even before the PS4 hits the shelves).

    Now if your PC centric and you look at the equivilant AMD GPU the Jaguar 8 core chipset look at the pure Gflop performance this conclusion seems on the surface to be a reasonable one. However this is a huge mistake this is not a CPU a GPU a Sound Processor and it is a APU. That means that every peace of hardware is linked together on the same die therefore while the individual componants can be compared to its PC equivilants the fact that every single componant is on the same die means that that there is in order of maginitude efficency between all of its parts.

    When your building a PC you can fit any number of CPU's into your MB similalry any number of Memory sticks or many types of strengths of GPU's. The mother board is designed therefore to support many different configurations and similarly the software must also support all these types of configurations from drivers to OS to be able to make all these pieces working together to achieve the desired goal of playing a game.

    Both Sony and MS had design goals decided what they could achieve taking into account their aims (e.g. media, kenect, games for MS, ganes, media, video streaming for Sony (these are just examples)) the amount of power they could use taking into consideration heat disepation and cost.

    So once Sony new how much power and cost they could budget for they went about building (with AMD) the best peace of kit taking in mind the demands of both internal and external studio's. Based on the project constraints (power, cost, heat dispertion, developer demands, project goals) they then arrived with AMD with their solution.

    They also took what they learnt what went wrong or write the PS3 and factored this with the PS4 to.

    What they liked about the PS3 was the shear power and flexibilty of the Cell to do remarkable things (Beyond 2 Souls, TLOU, God of War etc) what they didn't like was that the developers outside of Sony found it so hard to use and program for. Also the split memory pools caused developers issues and together with the weaker GPU (compared to Xbox 360) this caused most multiplats to not be able to leverage the PS3's potential and meant that most multiplats were better on the Xbox 360.

    In short a strong processor capable of flebxility in GPU, Compute, Physics good, Split memory card, weaker GPU, difficult hardware to master bad.

    Sorry for rambling but the insights that Cerny has given us into the design of the PS4 informs you of what they (Sony) are trying to achieve with the PS4 and that background does give you some insight into what the PS4 is all about.

    Ok we have allready covered that the PS4 is a APU and that means all the componants or on one die. What does this mean exactly.

    Well what it means is that the degree of seperation is much smaller. High bandwidth connect all these componants together and the bandwith/bus(es) is designed so that it takes advantage of the fact that all the componants are fixed and effiecent. The way that the PS4 can use its buses ONION, ONION+ and Garlic (to CPU to GPU via Cache (10 GB Sec) to CPU to GPU avoiding GPU cache (the same 10 GB sec) and CPU and GPU to GDDR5 (20 GB sec CPU 176 GPU) all read/write. )

    In addition they have added volatile tag so that the CPU and GPU can work on asynchronous compute for the system memory.




    What does this mean exactly?

    WIth the PC the componants are further apart and the path between the GPU and CPU is small in addition in order for the CPU or GPU to comunicate they use cache. Also the CPU language and the GPU language is different meaning that there is a layer there that needs to be done in order on both a hardware and software level that needs to work before the CPU and GPU can work together in order to produce the desired result. Cache misses are the bane of the PC world its why people scoff at tflop or gflop numbers because most processors relie on cache and cache misses are very costly terms of the amount of time it takes to process the task. In order to get around this the CPU for example is OOE or out of order which means that it can work on things while it is waiting for the piece of information it needs is "found" on cache.

    Without going into to much detail the steps between the CPU sending a job to the GPU and asking for the results back is in computer terms very time consuming because of bandwidth, cache misses / cache flushes, coverting instrustions in memory from what the cpu understands to what the GPU understands doing the job and going bak to the cpu repeating the process.

    The way the PC mitigates this is by being OOE and also by "brute force" in that the CPU and GPU are so quick and powerfull that they process the information very quickly once they have the instruction or job to do. Thus any time wasted due to cache misses / cache flushes are mitigated the faster and more powerfull the CPU and GPU are the more they "hide" this. However this is why people scoff at theoretical performances. Due to infecancys in the way this works and the fact that a job rarely uses 100 percentof the silicon real estate of the CPU/GPU the theoretical maximum of the PC are very rarely reached.

    It's obviously more complicated than that because you also have to take into account software layers in that the PC also has software layers. For example Windows OS has to cater for all possible componants and have the drivers to tell the componants what to do. Due to how high the software is working it is only telling the hardware how to proceed with a job/instruction in a general way and not telling it how to do it in the best way (most efficient).

    It is speculated on the other hand that the PS4 has Huma across its APU. This means that not only is the componants close to each other it can work in conjunction with each other in an efficent manner. So you tell the PS4 to do a collision detection job for example and it goes to the CPU which does its bit (usuing the CPU to do the bit that its good at) it passes the rest of the job to the GPU straight or via a unified memory which is flagged for a job. The GPU understands what it needs to do without any translation and does its bit and either sends it to the memory or sends the result to the CPU straight using the onion/onion + bandwidth. It can even write the result to the memory flagging it for the CPU the CPU does extra work and writes the result flagging this bit in the memory and GPU can take this back again. This is what is meant by asynchonus compute it can work together on a problem in a way that current PC's just not able to do.



    So what does this mean in real world performance.

    This is cutting edge technology which is why I am a little annoyed when I see PC gamers call the PS4 set up old. It's not the fact is the PCI exrpres variations and the way that the CPU and GPU work are old techonolgy with only incremental bandwidth changes and its basics have been the same for a very long time. The amount of power that the CPU and GPU are using (per watts and per how much real estate they use) is covering up how terribly ineffcient the process is.

    If the PS4 is huma and many of the talks that Mark Cerny has given together with how Huma works and the way in which the PS4 is set up seems to suggest that it is. Then due to the fact that the CPU and GPU can communicate and work on projects in a way in which has not been done before means that it in order of times more efficient that its PC equivilants how many times in order remains to be seen.

    The other piece of how powerfull the PS4 is is the GPU itself this is not just a 1.8tflop GPU it is modified extensivly above and beyond what GPU's are today so stacking up a stock AMD 2tflop GPU and putting up against the PS4 GPU and saying the AMD is more powerfull is very far from the whole picture.

    A normal AMD tahiti 7900 GPU has 2 ACE's and only 4 ques (not sure on this) however I believe the one on the Xbone has between 2 and 8 ques per ACE (Asynchronous Compute Engines) for a total of 4 or 16 ques to be worked on at any one time (Sorry I can only find four ques at the moment via google e.g. 2x2 but im sure I read a later spec sheet that said it had 8 to make it 16 so I cant be sure which is correct maybe someone here can confirm which is correct).

    Sorry I am so vauge on the PC and Xbone specs on AC's soon as I find the relevant information I will update the OP.

    Anyway the PS4 has 8 ACE's and has 64 ques. These are mostly used for the mangment of using the GPU for compute or GPGPU physics, collision detection, audio raytracing are examples of compute.



    What does this mean?

    Ok I have read that shadowmaps (from a dev) are terribly ineficient on GPU's as a job. Now I don't now exactly what this means in terms of how much real resources used on a GPU to do this job but lets say for the sake of argument that this job is 50 percent give or take on GPU's as a whole (to make things simple). Now a Nvidia Titan will still do this job really quickly even though its only using 50 percent of its recources to do this job due to brute power but effectivly the efficency of this task for this (made up) example means that its only able to do this job at an effective rating of 50 percent of its tflop rating (6tflop).

    In the mean time the CPU wants to offload a compute task (collision detection on mutliple objects for example) and sends that to the titan. This is not straight forward due to the seperation as detailed earlier. Due to the fact that the designer doesnt know that a state of the art GPU is on the other end they may even decide that collision detection is best done on the CPU due to the bandwidth/communication/OS overhead/high API wrapper and the fact that a less powerfull GPU might be present.

    (optimised for Nvidia or AMD may mean that the job is done on the that brands GPU due to the correct software drivers/hardware being present on the GPU).

    Anyway the upshot is that both the CPU and GPU on the PC are more than capable of doing whatever compute jobs are there its just there are issues meaning that PC is inheritly inefficent for CPU to GPU communications. PCIe 3 is 16 Gig sec have all the other issues mentioned earlier.

    The PS4 has 30 Gig sec transfer of information between it. Also due to direct commuinicaiton and Volatile tags cache misses and ineffcies are cut down.

    In addition to this while the PS4 GPU is running the shadow map GPU taks at 50 percent of its capabilities it can use (theoretically) 50 percet of the rest of the GPU to many compute jobs with 8 ACE's and 64 queues ready to fill any slack in the GPU for use as compute.

    Lets be clear the Cell had a gflop rating of about 216 if I remember correctly to use on compute and gpu tasks (but also had to do audio AI etc etc) this monster has shared resources of up to 1.8 Tflops for GPU and compute tasks. In the 50 perecent scenario that means that 900 gflops 4.5 times that of cell can be used for compute jobs.

    And its even better than that its not just 1 job at 50 percent. It can do many jobs balancing across what the CPU is good at and what the GPU is good at at the same time the CPU and the GPU constantly reading writing and updating fine grained compute spread over multiple jobs.

    In conclusion:



    What does this mean

    While on paper the componants may look middle of the road the actual design from a sofrware and hardware point means that the tech is state of the art do not confuse a lower tflop rating with old techonolgy. This is brand new technology in the following ways:

    The most powerful APU in existance
    A GPU with huge bandwidth resources to a very large amount of GDDR5
    A GPU that in theory can use all its 1.8 tflop resources ot both GPU and GPGPU at the same time in a way that no other GPU on the market is capable of at the moment especally when you consider that the API is "close to the metal"
    The CPU and GPU are not only part of a APU i.e. on the same die they look to support huma in that both CPU and GPU can freely share jobs on the fly giving code to the strengths of system and not having a bottleneck in either comunicaitons between each other nor issues with bandwidth between each other for a system whose processors are bound tightly together.



    Speculation in what that means in games

    Basicly just like Cell was able to do some pretty amazing things despite the fairly week GPU in first party hands. It produced beautifull games like TLOU, God of War, Uncharted for example. It also has beautiful games like GT6 and Beyond 2 souls coming soon.

    When Mark Cerney is talking about easy to use (access as pure GPU) the GPU is easy to use due to unified memory without any concern for edram or hard to use custom hardware (Cell).

    When he was talking about having something in the tank or explotiable resources down the line he was talking about the fine grained computing with huma and the modfied GPU.

    Having a 1.8tflop GPU means that we should see and are seeing a noticeable increase in visual fedility as we have seen in Killzone Shadow fall at 1080p 30fps or 1080p at 60fps for mulitplayer.

    What we might see in the future is less to do with common GPU things like tessalation, shadows and visual fedelty but distructable environments not seen before, effects that are just impossible on old consoles.

    PS4 may even push the PC's in ways that have not been done due to its use of physical effects that have not been seen in games before because the reources of the GPGPU are aviable in a very real way and not part of just a one off effect that happens just in one game.

    I believe we are allready seeing glimpses of this future. With collisions, physics and use of voxels in Resogun, the particle effects from Infamous Second Son, And volumetric effects from Deep Down.

    I am very exited by the future of the PS4 and will be very intrested in the techical aspects of the games of the current generation.


    (NOTE I will re-edit this post for mistakes etc but want to post it just in case I lose the text please bare with me)
    So Ive finally had a chance to sit down and read this.
    There isn't anything new in what you've stated, most of us know all this, we also know that's it NOT huma, its a simply modification to the older onion/garlic buss's, with some servery beefed up queues.
    That's not withstanding, what you've said is mostly true, there are a few gotchas though, and that relies heavily
    on programmers. If they decide to take advantage of these compute functions, then they will benefit, but these aren't a one size fits all solution, GPU compute will work on certain task, but not all, its not a solution to beef up the CPU's rather its an addition to.
    The issue with the PS4 is, its relativity slow, the PCI bus is roughly the same as passing data from GPU to CPU, the main advantage is memory architecture means you pass one pointer, and you not having data twice in the memory (once in CPU memory, once in GPU memory).
    But...

    You only have to look at what shadow fall did with this, it's minor, our of the 5.5 gb of data available, they used only 128 mb of data on that shared new bus.
    Any way, yes it certainly a very cool feature, to help out, and spin a little bit more out of these systems (both MS and Sony have it) than you would get without it, but it's not going to be giving huge in creases in power, at least overall, certain aspects, its will work well, the issues is, we are all so new at this idea of compute with $#@!genous memory, that it's hard to see what it will be used for.

    GPGPU compute on its on is nothing new. As I said in an another thread, getting it to do stuff that's relevant to the CPU and not just the GPU is where it will come into play. Having it in both systems means this will be an area that will grow rapidly, I'm very intrigued what devs will do this, and yes you are right, anyone dismissing these systems as just PC's in a box, are missing the bigger picture.
    Last edited by mynd; 09-30-2013 at 08:20.

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    PS4 is state of the art it is not a medium spec PC.

    Quote Originally Posted by floorganized View Post
    They both have 11.2 feature sets (PRT's). Only one of them programmes in directx.

    Neither is dx 11.2 and the article you got that from was wrong Norden said this at GDC.

    Norden also revealed an extended Direct X 11.1 featureset, a new asynchronous compute architecture, "greatly expanded shaders", and features "beyond" Direct X 11, OpenGL 4.0, and OpenCL. Sony's Compute allows developers to run arbitrary code on the GPU instead of the CPU, which benefits fluids, particles and post processing. Compute has access to the system's full set of "very expensive, very exotic" 8GB 256-bit GDDR5 unified memory. The system features two API: a low-level API that Norden said was "pretty much directly to the hardware" and a "Wrapper" API that is "very similar" to PlayStation 3 and PlayStation Vita graphics libraries.

    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-03-28-playstation-4-promises-a-simple-experience-for-developers-and-players



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    Last edited by mynd; 09-30-2013 at 09:53.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmcd35 View Post
    That's just the point, the PS4 parts are neither "Outdated" or "PC components". Trying to claim such misses the importance of the customisations that have been done.

    Jaguar APU are only just coming to market as 4-core parts not 8-core.
    Fair enough. The APU is new. But so what, it's relatively week compared to any CPU released over the past few years.

    The Southern Islands GPU core is only just being updated to Volcanic Islands. DX11.2 feature support is new.
    DX11.2 feature support is irrelevant for the consoles. Developers are likely going to be using an API much closer to the hardware than DirectX.

    No PC GPU has been as heavily modified for GPGPU performance based on Sony's work with SPURS and CELL.
    GPGPU computing isn't as bottle-necked on the PC by abstraction layers and bandwidth as graphics. Lots of GPUs in the PC space already perform much, much better in GPGPU cases.

    hUMA memory just doesn't exist for PC's at all (although AMD do plan to produce motherboard chipsets that support it in the near future).
    hUMA, or whatever unification Sony has worked into the console, is a big deal.

    The problem with Mantle for PC is that it's AMD only. Why would a developer choose to use it?
    Because if they're developing cross platform, they'll likely already be using some form of it anyway.

    Immediately your game is inaccessible to the nVidia owner half of the PC gaming community. Or do you wast extra resources writing the game twice in two different API's?
    If you're developing cross platform, you're already writing in different APIs. Mantle is potentially a huge win for AMD in the PC space, because it will allow developers to use what they do in the console space, which AMD has a monopoly on. I've been nVidia since the G80 (8800GTX) days, but I'll switch if Mantle pans out, and I'm sure lots of other PC gamers will too. This is AMDs gamble to grab more share in the PC space. It's clever.

    But also, why plug a 5TFLOP GPU in to a 1080p60 TV set, sounds like a massive waste of resources to me. If you fix that resolution and frame rate I bet you can drop down to more mid range cards (saving money) without having to drop settings such as AA? The GTX Titan and R9-290 will just have (alot) more idle time.
    My Titan is attached to a 1080p TV. Most people have never played games with absolutely no aliasing and shimmering (via super sampling). It really bumps the visual experience to a whole new level. Things look much less "gamey" and much more solid. In any event, I'll be moving to 4K in our living room within the next year.
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    There has been a lot of controversy about this matter in the last days, but we will try to clarify that Playstation 4 supports hUMA technology or at least it implements a first revision of it.
    http://www.vgleaks.com/playstation-4...ma-technology/

    This has been confirmed some time ago. Was done so in my thread, actually.
    hUMA is confirmed.
    Last edited by Lefein; 09-30-2013 at 11:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sneezymarble View Post
    Fair enough. The APU is new. But so what, it's relatively week compared to any CPU released over the past few years.
    Oh, I don't deny the relatively weak CPU. But then Sony have bet the farm on GPU compute and task threading. There's also the fact that it's one specific CPU so should be easier for developers to target - 64bit, SIMD, etc. I know PC's have these features, but how much are they held back from making the most of them due to the lowest common denominator?

    DX11.2 feature support is irrelevant for the consoles.
    Of course it's not irrelevant! It discribes what the GPU is physically capable of, not how devs choose to access those capabilities. Sure they'll (hopefully) be using lower level API's to access those features.

    hUMA, or whatever unification Sony has worked into the console, is a big deal.
    Which in essance is what this entire thread is about, PS4 != PC.

    This is AMDs gamble to grab more share in the PC space. It's clever.
    Oh I understand where AMD are going with this, and the key word here is 'gamble'. And I do wonder if it's at the heart of Sony's GNM API? It's similar in someways to Valve's SteamOS push. A bold move, will it pay off long term? I'm not convinced by it.

    My Titan is attached to a 1080p TV. Most people have never played games with absolutely no aliasing and shimmering (via super sampling). It really bumps the visual experience to a whole new level. Things look much less "gamey" and much more solid. In any event, I'll be moving to 4K in our living room within the next year.
    Having a look at your sig and I see where you are coming from. Unfortunately 90% of PC gamers are some way behind you! I'm pleased you can afford such high spec'd equipment. At 1080p I doubt your Titan even has chance to warm up. Love to know how many idle clock cycles it has every 1/60th sec. But then if you can afford to get 4k within the next year then the Titan will work out well for you long term.

    This is not the PS4's market place though! It's a £400 games console designed to play 1080p30/60 games for the next 5-8 years. Ie, mass market. I recon the PS4, long term, can hold it's own against a £7-800 mid range PC today.

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    Inglish

    If English isn't your first language, that's fine!

    If you're going to write a ton of words in English, and you don't have a firm grasp of spelling, please run your text through an English spellchecker.

    If you don't have a firm grasp of grammar or punctuation, starting your text off by mentioning where you're from (Russia, India, etc.) or just saying that you're learning English is very important.

    The unfortunate truth is that if English isn't your first language and you haven't mastered it yet, most of what you write on the internet is going to look to others as though it was written by a child- this is doubly true when you're writing about something like video game consoles.

    English speakers are going to see words like componant and assume you're a 12 year old in a basement somewhere fighting the console war, when it's very possible you're an adult computer professional who is just unable to spellcheck because your browser's locale isn't EN.

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