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  1. #26
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    No, i don't know it better than they do, it's just that i also know WHAT THEY DARE NOT SAY ... you don't make your own soon to launch machine sound like it can't do something someone else is going to for $100 less afterall...

    Do you plan on viewing TV in a window on your XBOX One? If so, enjoy!

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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Sometimes you want to get the GPU texture out of memory and on Xbox 360 that required what's called a "resolve pass" where you had to do a copy into DDR to get the texture out - that was another limitation we removed in ESRAM, as you can now texture out of ESRAM if you want to. From my perspective it's very much an evolution and improvement - a big improvement - over the design we had with the Xbox 360. I'm kind of surprised by all this, quite frankly.

    Digital Foundry: Obviously though, you are limited to just 32MB of ESRAM. Potentially you could be looking at say, four 1080p render targets, 32 bits per pixel, 32 bits of depth - that's 48MB straight away. So are you saying that you can effectively separate render targets so that some live in DDR3 and the crucial high-bandwidth ones reside in ESRAM?

    Andrew Goossen: Oh, absolutely. And you can even make it so that portions of your render target that have very little overdraw... For example, if you're doing a racing game and your sky has very little overdraw, you could stick those subsets of your resources into DDR to improve ESRAM utilisation. On the GPU we added some compressed render target formats like our 6e4 [six bit mantissa and four bits exponent per component] and 7e3 HDR float formats [where the 6e4 formats] that were very, very popular on Xbox 360, which instead of doing a 16-bit float per component 64pp render target, you can do the equivalent with us using 32 bits - so we did a lot of focus on really maximizing efficiency and utilisation of that ESRAM.

    Digital Foundry: And you have CPU read access to the ESRAM, right? This wasn't available on Xbox 360 eDRAM.

    Nick Baker: We do but it's very slow.


    So, everything I said about even if you load fractional textures procedural textures and some instances where you will have high terrain changeover can flood the 32MB ESRAM. They are talking about energy efficiency and power regulation. And, again, ITS NOT ALWAYS A RENDER TARGET. You need faster memory access to texture faster constructing frames as fast as possible requires BANDWIDTH.
    And, like i thought again, it has CPU read access but very slow, so, it's essentially a GPU cache...
    If I were a developer, I might get frustrated always having to load my needed texture fractions / tiles into the ESRAM for faster access. Instances could come up where it's just too little room, though, it sounds like they will just compress, but, that degrades texture quality versus raw open bandwidth and more open memory.

    They will learn to optimize and prioritize, but, we come back to simple truths, and programmers love simple truths:

    SIMPLICITY IS K.I.S.S.
    Keep It Simple Stupid! Now,before someone feels butthurt, it's a common saying. That's the mantra of all programming. Now, programming gets complicated, but, confusion violates KISS, not complication.
    This complication is for the sake of power efficiency etc, and that's Microsoft's vision. SONY's platform has less NON SIMPLICITY for the sake of expressing it clearly. Programmers are going to prefer the PS4 for these reasons.
    However, they used 1.8 BILLION transistors on the 6T (6 transistors per bit) ESRAM, where SONY spent that die/chip room on more CU's (Or ALUs as MS is trying to complicate the picture by calling them, lol).
    More CU's give you a linear processing advantage in all 3D performance marks, from polygon to texture and the whole mess. So, the system is inherently less powerful and no efficiency will make up for that.
    MS's vision is about the living room and tv control and selling adds for you to view your TV already while the NFL is on, or something... all kind of confusing.... most of my NFL and sports enthused friends have said they won't be shrinking the game from their 55in tv during the game to watch anyone's ads... so, good luck with the vision guys and gals.

    CBoaT.. is that you?

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
    Great song, should have more views :'(

    SHIMAASAAAANIIII!!!!!

  4. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    That's the beauty of being someone like me... don't give a fudge about which one is better. I care about the games and features each one brings because I'll have them both. I just want first party titles, and then the third party stuff... I'll have the option to get the third party on whichever console I want. I couldn't function as a gamer if I was stuck on a brand. Like if I only liked the Xbox brand, and always had negative things to say about the Playstation brand; and vice verse.
    I was almost the same last gen because I owned the ps2 and xbox. I played the multiplats on the xbox along with halo and I played exclusives on the ps2.

    I was going to buy a 360 but MS stopped supporting it as they did in its early life. I blame kinect. I already played the exclusives that I wanted to play. I couldn't justify buying the console just to play those titles over again and to play multiplats.

    Next gen is like a mix of the 2 previous gens with certain roles switched between the xbox/ps brand. It's very unique. I have no concerns with the ps4. I'll be playing exclusives and my multiplat titles on the ps4. A dev would have to purposely screw up the ps4 version for it to be inferior to the xbone version. My main problems with MS is that I don't trust them to keep the new i.p. support going throughout the xbone life. That's based off how the 360 turned out along with MS's still heavily focusing on kinect with the xbone. The other problem I have is the price. With the problems I have with MS, I'll end up having to wait a few years either way. I'm needing a price cut and time to see if MS has their **** together with continued new i.p support. 4 main exclusives in rotation isn't going to cut it for me.




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  6. #29
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    Nope, i am not neogaf's CBoaT. But, i've been around long enough to laugh at social media since I see it all as HTML variations on BBS and IRC.

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  8. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    No, i don't know it better than they do, it's just that i also know WHAT THEY DARE NOT SAY ... you don't make your own soon to launch machine sound like it can't do something someone else is going to for $100 less afterall...
    Saying and doing is two different things. I care about what it does more. You guys can keep making it sound like theses two consoles are in different leagues, but until we see it in the games, it's all hearsay. Let the games do the talking.

    ]Do you plan on viewing TV in a window on your XBOX One? If so, enjoy!
    I don't plan on using it much, but when i do,I will enjoy every minute of it.

  9. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Sometimes you want to get the GPU texture out of memory and on Xbox 360 that required what's called a "resolve pass" where you had to do a copy into DDR to get the texture out - that was another limitation we removed in ESRAM, as you can now texture out of ESRAM if you want to. From my perspective it's very much an evolution and improvement - a big improvement - over the design we had with the Xbox 360. I'm kind of surprised by all this, quite frankly.

    Digital Foundry: Obviously though, you are limited to just 32MB of ESRAM. Potentially you could be looking at say, four 1080p render targets, 32 bits per pixel, 32 bits of depth - that's 48MB straight away. So are you saying that you can effectively separate render targets so that some live in DDR3 and the crucial high-bandwidth ones reside in ESRAM?

    Andrew Goossen: Oh, absolutely. And you can even make it so that portions of your render target that have very little overdraw... For example, if you're doing a racing game and your sky has very little overdraw, you could stick those subsets of your resources into DDR to improve ESRAM utilisation. On the GPU we added some compressed render target formats like our 6e4 [six bit mantissa and four bits exponent per component] and 7e3 HDR float formats [where the 6e4 formats] that were very, very popular on Xbox 360, which instead of doing a 16-bit float per component 64pp render target, you can do the equivalent with us using 32 bits - so we did a lot of focus on really maximizing efficiency and utilisation of that ESRAM.

    Digital Foundry: And you have CPU read access to the ESRAM, right? This wasn't available on Xbox 360 eDRAM.

    Nick Baker: We do but it's very slow.


    So, everything I said about even if you load fractional textures procedural textures and some instances where you will have high terrain changeover can flood the 32MB ESRAM.
    What the hell are you talking about, they referenced framebuffers and you are talking about procedural texture and "fractional texture" (WTF is a fractional texture BTW).
    They are talking about energy efficiency and power regulation. And, again, ITS NOT ALWAYS A RENDER TARGET. You need faster memory access to texture faster constructing frames as fast as possible requires BANDWIDTH.

    And, like i thought again, it has CPU read access but very slow, so, it's essentially a GPU cache...
    Its fully pageable to the system memory, so no its not a GPU cache, they have been at pains to point out that it is NOT a GPU cache like it was on the 360 and you come up with that.
    Wow.
    If I were a developer, I might get frustrated always having to load my needed texture fractions / tiles into the ESRAM for faster access.
    No one has ever done that, no one has ever said you should do that, your makign stuff up. Or you dont understand what youve read.
    Instances could come up where it's just too little room, though, it sounds like they will just compress, but, that degrades texture quality versus raw open bandwidth and more open memory.
    Leaving the graphics programming to graphics programmers. The compression they are talking about is loss-less. We aren't talking about jpg compression they are talking about HDR compression.
    They will learn to optimize and prioritize, but, we come back to simple truths, and programmers love simple truths:

    SIMPLICITY IS K.I.S.S.
    Keep It Simple Stupid! Now,before someone feels butthurt, it's a common saying. That's the mantra of all programming. Now, programming gets complicated, but, confusion violates KISS, not complication.
    This complication is for the sake of power efficiency etc, and that's Microsoft's vision. SONY's platform has less NON SIMPLICITY for the sake of expressing it clearly. Programmers are going to prefer the PS4 for these reasons.
    However, they used 1.8 BILLION transistors on the 6T (6 transistors per bit) ESRAM, where SONY spent that die/chip room on more CU's (Or ALUs as MS is trying to complicate the picture by calling them, lol).
    More CU's give you a linear processing advantage in all 3D performance marks, from polygon to texture and the whole mess. So, the system is inherently less powerful and no efficiency will make up for that.
    MS's vision is about the living room and tv control and selling adds for you to view your TV already while the NFL is on, or something... all kind of confusing.... most of my NFL and sports enthused friends have said they won't be shrinking the game from their 55in tv during the game to watch anyone's ads... so, good luck with the vision guys and gals.
    You know, anybody would think you've never heard of the 360 and they way it was lauded this gen for its ease to develop for.
    So MS extend upon that, because devs said "jesus we would really like access to the edram a little more than a once a frame writeback" and MS makes it easier to use and you come up with doom and gloom.

    THE EXACT SAME THEORY YOU POST COULD BE PUT ON THE XBOX 360.

    HOW ARE THEY ARE EVER GOING TO HANDLE PUTTING EVERYTHING INSIDE THAT 10MB OF EDRAM, OF THAT WILL BE A LOT OF JUGGLING!

    Of course the answer is, they didn't.
    Last edited by mynd; 10-05-2013 at 23:42.
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  10. #32
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    We'll have to continue seeing things differently. PS3 was HARD to get a grips on, COMPARATIVELY, the XB360 was easier and things were laid out more logically. So, yes, it was 'easier'. Much of it was taken care of in the toolkit in the beginning giving developers the ability to get better games out earlier and maximize performance as they go on where the PS3 kit just got in the way in the beginning and you had better been working on new tools to get around it for your next game.
    On other points, well, the argument seems to be you say it's the target buffer and then more people come along and say it's not necessarily that ,and i point that out and you ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK, so, i recommend you consider the job of a Politician in Washington DC, afterall, nationality probably won't even matter.
    The point being made is that SONY's system is more powerful and constructed simpler, which Programmers mostly love, and we'll have to sort out power efficiency later. While a CPU has some things that it does much better than the ALU/CU's on the Radeon portion of the APU... the 6 extra units should do wonders offloading more for COMPUTE as well as pushing to 1080p@60FPS than the ESRAM.

  11. #33
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    I think MS is worried about this stuff. They're sending affiliates left and right to gaf to downplay the power difference. AND they are being banned for it too.




  12. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    I think MS is worried about this stuff. They're sending affiliates left and right to gaf to downplay the power difference. AND they are being banned for it too.
    Yes, they will. I know of, not microsoft, companies who've hired companies to write fictional positive reviews too.
    MS is taking the healthy approach in one way.
    They've hired Mosaic solutions in the US to hire and manage an Assisted Sales program for them here in the states, and it looks like it kicks off immediately. They will have word of mouth people demoing systems in BB every weekend at least sat and sun , probably on rotating 4hr shifts between 2 stores, if it's like their usual demo work. SONY should get their reps out there too just to counteract it. No word on if they will though.
    If Kinect does operate better than several industry veteran editors have said it does sofar, if it is patched between now and then, and if they get REALLY GOOD reps (that's the hardest part, trust me, ALOT of people get these jobs so they can goto a store, sign in, and disappear and file the report for free money rather than actually do the job: those were the people i loved to fire the most when I took over an area to clean up!), then they have a chance at changing the sway here.

  13. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    We'll have to continue seeing things differently. PS3 was HARD to get a grips on, COMPARATIVELY, the XB360 was easier and things were laid out more logically. So, yes, it was 'easier'. Much of it was taken care of in the toolkit in the beginning giving developers the ability to get better games out earlier and maximize performance as they go on where the PS3 kit just got in the way in the beginning and you had better been working on new tools to get around it for your next game.
    You know the same arguments you put forward were used last gen, probably by you as well, that the 360 was a system starved of bandwidth, how on earth could you share the same bus with the CPU and GPU etc etc.
    It was all a non issue, and it turned out that the Edram gave the GPU a huge huge performance boost.
    On other points, well, the argument seems to be you say it's the target buffer and then more people come along and say it's not necessarily that ,and i point that out and you ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK, so, i recommend you consider the job of a Politician in Washington DC, afterall, nationality probably won't even matter.
    I've outlined multiple times what you would use the esram for other than a target buffer,, but you continue to ignore me (and the Xbox engineers), and choose to believe that all you textures should go in there somehow.

    That makes absolutely no sense, and form a traditional rendering point of view you end up maybe with the ability to render 6 object with decent texture resolution before you'd have to flush it and start again.
    Meanwhile you'd be soaking you DDR3 with you output for the framebuffer.

    Lets get this point across to you, did you NOT read the article regarding a framebuffer write...

    A high fill-rate won't help if the memory system can't sustain the bandwidth required to run at that fill rate. For example, consider a typical game scenario where the render target is 32bpp [bits per pixel] and blending is disabled, and the depth/stencil surface is 32bpp with Z enabled. That amount to 12 bytes of bandwidth needed per pixel drawn (eight bytes write, four bytes read). At our peak fill-rate of 13.65GPixels/s that adds up to 164GB/s of real bandwidth that is needed which pretty much saturates our ESRAM bandwidth.

    That's a 164gb/s of memory required for a framebuffer write.
    Now why on earth would you force that in to you DDR3 at 68gb/s?


    As I have been telling you for ages.

    You biggest bandwidth soaker is the framebuffer, you must not only write to it but must be able to read form the depth buffer especially when there is plenty of overdraw.

    So just stop it with your talk of trying to cram all you textures in to the esram, its not going to happen, but as I said, if there is a texture you constantly referring to such as a shadow map, it makes sense to put it in there if you referencing it for a large portion of your scene.

    The point being made is that SONY's system is more powerful and constructed simpler, which Programmers mostly love, and we'll have to sort out power efficiency later. While a CPU has some things that it does much better than the ALU/CU's on the Radeon portion of the APU... the 6 extra units should do wonders offloading more for COMPUTE as well as pushing to 1080p@60FPS than the ESRAM.


    Yes, there is no doubt the PS4 is far more straightforward as a system, you can treat it as PC if you so wish. But that has nothing to do with what you decided to talk about in this thread (nor should it have anything to do with this thread). And why the hell are you even talking about the PS4 in this thread?

    You decided to attack the ESram as some sort of pensive bottleneck, or that compression is somehow a failure, which is simply untrue.
    Last edited by mynd; 10-06-2013 at 00:34.
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  14. #36
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    No, the Bottleneck was the DDR3. There are things in this day and age that just work better with high bandwidth. We'll see what the new memory architecture does for that. When one says that the ESRAM holding the framebuffer solves it all, it's not right. When it's said that the ESRAM makes up for it because it's all about the framebuffer, it's not all true. If it did, then then graphics card makers would still charge the same money but they'd put DDR3 on the video cards and the chip makers wouldn't use such wide busses. I've never said anything negative about the XB360 hardware other than RROD, which was a big one. The design was solid. As to the reason i'm on the thread, again, i clicked through from the box on the main page, and, ofcourse, I didn't see which forum it were in.

  15. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    No, the Bottleneck was the DDR3. There are things in this day and age that just work better with high bandwidth.
    And there are some things that work better with low latency.
    We'll see what the new memory architecture does for that. When one says that the ESRAM holding the framebuffer solves it all, it's not right. When it's said that the ESRAM makes up for it because it's all about the framebuffer, it's not all true. If it did, then then graphics card makers would still charge the same money but they'd put DDR3 on the video cards and the chip makers wouldn't use such wide busses.
    Well you'd have to put up wards of 128mb+ of it on there for that to work, due to the far more flexiable resolution modern GPU's work with, you also don't have the luxury of having a custom bus's to work with or a closed box. And also it's not cheap.
    It works in a closed box for two reasons.

    1/MS put an emphasis on CPU latency memory access
    2/A closed box doesn't have to be as flexible in its setup, therefore you don't have to plan for every contingency of frame resolution.

    In the scenario MS has put together they get the benefits of low latency for the CPU, and the best compromise for higher bandwidth that they could achieve within in the limits of what they felt was important.

    Will it work, probably, will it work better than the PS4 setup? Maybe in some situations, maybe not in others.
    The question is how important really is low latency?
    I've never said anything negative about the XB360 hardware other than RROD, which was a big one. The design was solid. As to the reason i'm on the thread, again, i clicked through from the box on the main page, and, ofcourse, I didn't see which forum it were in.
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  16. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    And there are some things that work better with low latency.

    Well you'd have to put up wards of 128mb+ of it on there for that to work, due to the far more flexiable resolution modern GPU's work with, you also don't have the luxury of having a custom bus's to work with or a closed box. And also it's not cheap.
    It works in a closed box for two reasons.

    1/MS put an emphasis on CPU latency memory access
    2/A closed box doesn't have to be as flexible in its setup, therefore you don't have to plan for every contingency of frame resolution.

    In the scenario MS has put together they get the benefits of low latency for the CPU, and the best compromise for higher bandwidth that they could achieve within in the limits of what they felt was important.

    Will it work, probably, will it work better than the PS4 setup? Maybe in some situations, maybe not in others.
    The question is how important really is low latency?


    Take a break, have a kitkat.

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
    Great song, should have more views :'(

    SHIMAASAAAANIIII!!!!!

  17. #39
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    lol that gif is so funny.

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    I thought the interview was great. Never seen Sony discuss their hardware to this extent and detail. Nintendo never discusses much of anything about their hardware....period.

    I think this bodes well for the Xbox One. PS4 more powerful? So what! I'll paraphrase part of what Les Claypool of Primus told the crowd at Woodstock '94....... Constantly having to declare and reaffirm your console's power superiority is a sign of small and insignificant genitalia.


    Can't wait for some Xbox One fun!

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    ps4 is brought up because MS tries to downplay it. It's quite funny and sad.

    They should have just not opened the gates to spec talk. Just kept it all about the games as they intended.




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    read it a few days ago, it was fantastic to read how they came to certain decisions, will be good to see how they play out through the generation.
    xbox live: AcrylicAltair44

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    I thought the interview was great. Never seen Sony discuss their hardware to this extent and detail. Nintendo never discusses much of anything about their hardware....period.

    I think this bodes well for the Xbox One. PS4 more powerful? So what! I'll paraphrase part of what Les Claypool of Primus told the crowd at Woodstock '94....... Constantly having to declare and reaffirm your console's power superiority is a sign of small and insignificant genitalia.


    Can't wait for some Xbox One fun!
    Itīs MS that constantly trying to declare xbones power superiority.... As you said, Sony does not discuss their hardware...

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  23. #44
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    MS: Yea we didn't want to target the best graphics anyway.

    *omg PS4 is teh powerful, teh graphics!*
    MS: OMGz guys! I found teh extra power hidden inside teh X1 plus teh cloud! UNLIMITEDDDDDDD POWAAAAAAA!!!!@@(#*$

    *PS4 is 50% more powerful! GDDR5 is teh awesome! Love it*
    MS: Well, it's all about teh balance, DDR3 is better! 'cause GDDR5 has an extra G, it's teh more hard! Pfft whateva, X1 is better overall but why talk so much about teh tech, it's all about teh games!

    ...to be continued...:rollingeyes:

  24. Likes Yungstar 2006, victorijapoosp wishes they had posted this first.
  25. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    MS: Yea we didn't want to target the best graphics anyway.

    *omg PS4 is teh powerful, teh graphics!*
    MS: OMGz guys! I found teh extra power hidden inside teh X1 plus teh cloud! UNLIMITEDDDDDDD POWAAAAAAA!!!!@@(#*$

    *PS4 is 50% more powerful! GDDR5 is teh awesome! Love it*
    MS: Well, it's all about teh balance, DDR3 is better! 'cause GDDR5 has an extra G, it's teh more hard! Pfft whateva, X1 is better overall but why talk so much about teh tech, it's all about teh games!

    ...to be continued...:rollingeyes:

    THE never ending dialogue hahaha.

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
    Great song, should have more views :'(

    SHIMAASAAAANIIII!!!!!

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