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  1. #26
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    Well there are different levels of balance so.......


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    Quote Originally Posted by Yungstar 2006 View Post
    stupid me, i thought it was about keeping the system cool while running and GDDR5 could have had the system running to hot for MS's likes...

    oh well.......
    Sony revealed that the ps4 would use less power(while at its peak;playing games) than the super slim ps3. I wonder why MS refused to tell the power usage of the xbone? Surely it's going to run cooler without GDDR5, right?


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  4. #28
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    wasn't this debunked last week? hahahaha oh man sith. You funny.
    You can't be serious with the 30 megabyte signature... ~ Staff

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
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    Xbox One Dev: GDDR5 Is Uncomfortable To Work With
    Well it's a good thing the X1 devs don't have to work with it!


    Next Gen top picks:
    PS4: Infamous SS, DriveClub
    One: Project spark, Forza 5
    Multi: Watchdogs, The crew, FFXV, KHIII

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  7. #30
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    http://www.dualshockers.com/2013/09/...-share-button/

    Director Hiroyuki Sakamoto stated in an interview on Famitsu.com

    "The PS4 has been provided with enough memory, and the processing speed of the CPU is fast. There’s no weak point, isn’t it?"

    Sakamoto-san continues by mentioning that until now he used to have to waste time making ends meet with the memory, but PS4 removes that problem, therefore there’s no room for compromises because if you make compromises the difference in quality between your titles and the others would become evident."

  8. #31
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    I've said this before I will say it again. Both MS and Sony made the best of a bad situation.

    GDDR5 is great for graphics but will affect the CPU when latency issues arise, this can be exacerbated by certain GPU functions running on the same bus.

    DDR3 is ok for this issue but can't power a decent GPU.

    It's all about trade offs. Both Sony and MS did the best to work around the increasing memory issues we are having in this industry.

    About the only big advantage I can see would fall on MS side in that their memory is much cheaper to produce and should theoretically be cost reduced much further than the GDDR5 Is Ps4 can.

    That said I will never bet against Sony when it comes to reducing systems costs, just look at what they achieved with PS3.

  9. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabjabs View Post
    I've said this before I will say it again. Both MS and Sony made the best of a bad situation.

    GDDR5 is great for graphics but will affect the CPU when latency issues arise, this can be exacerbated by certain GPU functions running on the same bus.

    DDR3 is ok for this issue but can't power a decent GPU.

    It's all about trade offs. Both Sony and MS did the best to work around the increasing memory issues we are having in this industry.

    About the only big advantage I can see would fall on MS side in that their memory is much cheaper to produce and should theoretically be cost reduced much further than the GDDR5 Is Ps4 can.

    That said I will never bet against Sony when it comes to reducing systems costs, just look at what they achieved with PS3.
    I'm not sure MS has the price advantage with going with DDR3. While there is currently a bit of a price rise on the chips, DDR3 is dirt cheap already, last year I think Ram was selling almost for cost which is why the companies started raising the prices. There is probably less wriggle room on lowering the price and DDR4 isnt too far off, that will affect the prices, and by the end of the console gen, DDR3 might actually be more expensive or not moved as DDR2 did.

    I'd say its actually the opposite with GDDR5 prices, GDDR5 could come down as it is used in more graphics cards and new systems ( If AMD goes ahead with GDDR5 Testing in APU pc systems) and the manufacture of the PS4 it self would affect the prices.

    (this not so much at you Jabs but the thread now)

    Are the trade offs to CPU performance unique to GDDR5 or GDDR in general? If its to GDDR5 only, how come? but if its GDDR in general, then why was it not considered a limiting factor for the 360 which used GDDR3 for its system memory? Is it more of a GDDR5 compared to DDR3 issue where DDR is just tried and tested and GDDR for system ram will require rethinking on how you utilise the memory for CPU usage?

  10. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Yea, but I don't really see devs complaining about having to work with RAM setup for xb1.
    Here's one.

    “Xbox One is weaker and it’s a pain to use its ESRAM,”


    http://www.edge-online.com/news/powe...e-performance/

  11. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bitbydeath View Post
    What I find interesting about this article is that Ryse is 900p
    One basic example we were given suggested that without optimisation for either console, a platform-agnostic development build can run at around 30FPS in 1920×1080 on PS4, but it’ll run at “20-something” FPS in 1600×900 on Xbox One. “Xbox One is weaker and it’s a pain to use its ESRAM,” concluded one developer.
    "I think all those developers who are saying, "We don’t want to do a PS3 game," or "It’s really difficult to do it," should shut up and make their games. If you have time to complain about it, then you should be spending your time working on getting the most from the hardware."

  12. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bitbydeath View Post
    How shocking. A journalist taking something out of context.


    “The poor [graphics] drivers have made it difficult to push either of them, and the developers aren’t familiar with the hardware yet,“ said one source. Another stated that we’ll begin to see far greater use of each platform’s unique features once we’re past the first wave of releases, when developers have more time and experience with each console’s quirks.

  13. #36
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    but the point was about the RAM setup.

    because earlier you said, "Yea, but I don't really see devs complaining about having to work with RAM setup for xb1."

    it doesn't matter if they don't complain, it's still not the easiest setup.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    How shocking. A journalist taking something out of context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    but the point was about the RAM setup.

    because earlier you said, "Yea, but I don't really see devs complaining about having to work with RAM setup for xb1."

    it doesn't matter if they don't complain, it's still not the easiest setup.
    That's one dev talking about early devkits which is perfectly normal in any console cycle. They all start out that way until they get more familiar.

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    so they're changing the ESRAM setup in the final kits? please do tell more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    That's one dev talking about early devkits which is perfectly normal in any console cycle. They all start out that way until they get more familiar.

  16. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bitbydeath View Post
    Being that we end up finding out most of these negative xbone rumors are true, I have no reason to doubt that edge article.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Two4DaMoney View Post
    Being that we end up finding out most of these negative xbone rumors are true, I have no reason to doubt that edge article.
    Yep exactly. Rumors that were always initially denied by the diehard Xbox members here only to become harsh reality. So going by the history of negative XBone rumors this Edge article is most likely true.

  18. #41
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    to reiterate my last post. it doesn't matter that developers will eventually get used to the architecture because they did so with the PS3 as well. the issue is that in relation to the 360, PS3 will always be more difficult, thus X1 more than PS4.

    the problem is still there.

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  20. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    but the point was about the RAM setup.

    because earlier you said, "Yea, but I don't really see devs complaining about having to work with RAM setup for xb1."

    it doesn't matter if they don't complain, it's still not the easiest setup.
    It was easy enough last gen, why the change this gen?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    so they're changing the ESRAM setup in the final kits? please do tell more.
    Drivers.

  21. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    It was easy enough last gen, why the change this gen?
    because it can be easier.

    if there was something easier than the 360 last gen then we'd see 360 suffer as well. developers are more attracted to platforms that are the easiest to develop for. we can sit here and argue that i.e. then why don't they focus more on PC and we all know the answers to that and it has nothing to do with ease of development but the market itself.
    Drivers.
    "to reiterate my last post. it doesn't matter that developers will eventually get used to the architecture because they did so with the PS3 as well. the issue is that in relation to the 360, PS3 will always be more difficult, thus X1 more than PS4.

    the problem is still there."

  22. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    because it can be easier.


    "to reiterate my last post. it doesn't matter that developers will eventually get used to the architecture because they did so with the PS3 as well. the issue is that in relation to the 360, PS3 will always be more difficult, thus X1 more than PS4.

    the problem is still there."
    That's not an issue or problem. It is what it is. It's just different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    because it can be easier.

    if there was something easier than the 360 last gen then we'd see 360 suffer as well. developers are more attracted to platforms that are the easiest to develop for. we can sit here and argue that i.e. then why don't they focus more on PC and we all know the answers to that and it has nothing to do with ease of development but the market itself.
    "to reiterate my last post. it doesn't matter that developers will eventually get used to the architecture because they did so with the PS3 as well. the issue is that in relation to the 360, PS3 will always be more difficult, thus X1 more than PS4.

    the problem is still there."
    That's some bold words, how do you know it's easier, because a bunch of indies have told you how much like a PC the PS4 is?
    Its not secret the PS4 is basically a PC in disguise unless you start digging.
    And when you start digging, that machine is far far more complex to deal with, it has huge chance of pulling a crash on you because of the way the memory coherency is used. It has 5 types of data flags for memory, which is a huge amount to keep track of (the XBO has two).

    Cerny isnt wrong when he said they wanted to make a machine that was easy to get into but more complex long term...

    Ultimately, we are trying to strike a balance between features which you can use day one, and features which will allow the system to evolve over the years, as gaming itself evolves,
    So yes, the PS4 is eays to use, if you want to be stuck making basic PC ports, for sure.

    I think people need to stop fooling themselves that the PS4 is somehow a walk in the park, it wont be, not when your getting AAA titles in development (watch the jump form release titles on both systems to 2nd release titles).

    If people really want to use all that compute and UMA features, it costs a lot, and is going to be far tighter in timings on trying to not stall the GPU.
    Last edited by mynd; 10-07-2013 at 21:09.

  24. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    That's some bold words, how do you know it's easier, because a bunch of indies have told you

    .....................

    If people really want to use all that compute and UMA features, it costs a lot, and is going to be far tighter in timings on trying to not stall the GPU.
    "Bunch of indies" creating games/in possession of dev kits VS ramblings of the anonymous forum member MYND [aka xbox man on a playstation forum no less]

    I wonder who should I believe.

    And btw its hUMA not UMA.

    Clearly having to deal with;
    -painful esram architecture
    -giving up GPU resources to kinect
    -dealing with a weaker GPU
    -dealing with ddr3.

    Magically makes the Xbox easier/better to develop on. Eventhough we see compromised games already with 900p ryse and 720p killer instinct?

    Please carry on.
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  26. #47
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    I'm trying to figure out your post, mynd. Going from what you say this is the case for all AAA titles. The easier to develop for isn't all indies and quite frankly I find that a bit hard to believe. We will hear more about this from devs that actually make AAA games won't we? I believe we will. Making a AAA game on any platform will have complexities. I don't understand what you are trying to debate. If he is making it sound like a cake walk, I don't believe that is the case. It was advertised it's easier to develop games for, everyone knows that Sony has some focus on indies (which is a good thing... I don't see how it's not).

    Also, I'm kind of getting tired of your constant basis that is against indies, it makes no sense at all. Everytime something postive comes to the PS4 and the attention of some people here, you come out with this tiresome excuse...."well, it's indie so whatever". Also, how do you know it's not easier? I know your background but I doubt you even have a devkit to even say anything against it's ease of development. honestly, I don't get you.

  27. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    That's some bold words, how do you know it's easier, because a bunch of indies have told you how much like a PC the PS4 is?
    Its not secret the PS4 is basically a PC in disguise unless you start digging.
    And when you start digging, that machine is far far more complex to deal with, it has huge chance of pulling a crash on you because of the way the memory coherency is used. It has 5 types of data flags for memory, which is a huge amount to keep track of (the XBO has two).

    Cerny isnt wrong when he said they wanted to make a machine that was easy to get into but more complex long term...



    So yes, the PS4 is eays to use, if you want to be stuck making basic PC ports, for sure.

    I think people need to stop fooling themselves that the PS4 is somehow a walk in the park, it wont be, not when your getting AAA titles in development (watch the jump form release titles on both systems to 2nd release titles).

    If people really want to use all that compute and UMA features, it costs a lot, and is going to be far tighter in timings on trying to not stall the GPU.
    you can throw all the mambo jambo, you win, i can't argue against that but where i'm getting that it's easier is from cerny, what makes sense to me and what the developers have implied.

    each time you have to reach a theoretical power by jumping through hoops as opposed to straight up method, you're going to have a lot of untapped potential. that's what happened to the PS3.

    and while X1 is nowhere as difficult as the PS3, the point i was making is that what matters is that the market has for the moment.

    PS3 is not the most difficult console to develop for in the history but it was for its time. right now it seems like you have no way of getting close to the power PS4 has on paper, without using the ESRAM to its fullest.

    why wouldn't that be more difficult? whatever else you're saying, even if those things matter to a certain extent, what matters in the end more is that you have all this fast RAM to access and it is giving you the benefit without much effort. that is why Epic guy was so excited about it. who has praised X1's setup so far over PS4's?

  28. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    you can throw all the mambo jambo, you win, i can't argue against that but where i'm getting that it's easier is from cerny, what makes sense to me and what the developers have implied. each time you have to reach a theoretical power by jumping through hoops as opposed to straight up method, you're going to have a lot of untapped potential. that's what happened to the PS3. and while X1 is nowhere as difficult as the PS3, the point i was making is that what matters is that the market has for the moment. PS3 is not the most difficult console to develop for in the history but it was for its time. right now it seems like you have no way of getting close to the power PS4 has on paper, without using the ESRAM to its fullest. why wouldn't that be more difficult? whatever else you're saying, even if those things matter to a certain extent, what matters in the end more is that you have all this fast RAM to access and it is giving you the benefit without much effort. that is why Epic guy was so excited about it. who has praised X1's setup so far over PS4's?
    Nobody except mynd. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    Nobody except mynd. lol
    And.... MS !

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