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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    "Bunch of indies" creating games/in possession of dev kits VS ramblings of the anonymous forum member MYND [aka xbox man on a playstation forum no less]

    I wonder who should I believe.

    And btw its hUMA not UMA.
    LOL, sure whatever floats your boat, don't see it mentioned as such in any PS4 bullet points.

    Clearly having to deal with;
    -painful esram architecture
    -giving up GPU resources to kinect
    -dealing with a weaker GPU
    -dealing with ddr3.

    Magically makes the Xbox easier/better to develop on. Eventhough we see compromised games already with 900p ryse and 720p killer instinct?
    Who said that?

    Please carry on.
    You should believe Cerny, there is no doubt the PS4 is a far simpler design at first glance, and can be treated as such, but that machine is a very complex beast once you start messing around with the extra features.
    You don't have to believe me, listen to what Cerny had to say about it.

    "The hardware is an enabler. We are very intentionally trying to make the hardware easy to learn and difficult to master.
    Indies will find it easier to work with vs the XBO however, and devs at least have the option over learning it of a period of time.

    People shouldn't write the PS4 off as simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    you can throw all the mambo jambo, you win, i can't argue against that but where i'm getting that it's easier is from cerny, what makes sense to me and what the developers have implied.

    each time you have to reach a theoretical power by jumping through hoops as opposed to straight up method, you're going to have a lot of untapped potential. that's what happened to the PS3.

    and while X1 is nowhere as difficult as the PS3, the point i was making is that what matters is that the market has for the moment.
    It matters at the moment, for sure, pre launch the easier you system is to work with the better results devs will get on a new machine.

    PS3 is not the most difficult console to develop for in the history but it was for its time. right now it seems like you have no way of getting close to the power PS4 has on paper, without using the ESRAM to its fullest.
    For graphics? For sure.
    why wouldn't that be more difficult? whatever else you're saying, even if those things matter to a certain extent, what matters in the end more is that you have all this fast RAM to access and it is giving you the benefit without much effort. that is why Epic guy was so excited about it. who has praised X1's setup so far over PS4's?
    Its only an extension to the 360's setup, in a way, MS is probably penalizing themselves by giving the dev options to interact with that ESRam, on the 360 it wasn't available as an addressable par to the system.
    Yes that certainly makes it more complex than it was, but really, its only an optional by product, devs can still use it like they did the 360. I suspect what the newer drivers did was just that, give devs an automated setup so they can use it without really thinking about it having to handle it.
    Last edited by mynd; 10-08-2013 at 00:26.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    So there is more than 1 pudding?
    They will certainly be happy to hear that over at Hogwarts.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    It matters at the moment, for sure, pre launch the easier you system is to work with the better results devs will get on a new machine.

    PS3 is not the most difficult console to develop for in the history but it was for its time. right now it seems like you have no way of getting close to the power PS4 has on paper, without using the ESRAM to its fullest.
    For graphics? For sure.
    The PS4 seems to be the easier system to get max performance out of.
    As for digging deep into libraries exploiting cache flags etc, yeah, some of that is supposed to be automated, and digging in manually can come later.

    If anyone wants to try saying the PS4 isn't the simpler machine to program on... tough cookies, the guys behind Warframe will differ with you, as will many other developers.

    About the above snippet...
    The Sega Saturn was probably THE most notorious system to develop for having coordinate schedules between the 2 SH1 processors attached to one bus which they can't access simultaneously, or, just use one as happened often... For Americans, the PS1 Dev Kits kind of sucked too, in japanese ofcourse. The saturn sucked most though because you were putting way to much effort into hardware you KNEW was going to fail.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    The PS4 seems to be the easier system to get max performance out of.
    As for digging deep into libraries exploiting cache flags etc, yeah, some of that is supposed to be automated, and digging in manually can come later.

    If anyone wants to try saying the PS4 isn't the simpler machine to program on... tough cookies, the guys behind Warframe will differ with you, as will many other developers.

    About the above snippet...
    The Sega Saturn was probably THE most notorious system to develop for having coordinate schedules between the 2 SH1 processors attached to one bus which they can't access simultaneously, or, just use one as happened often... For Americans, the PS1 Dev Kits kind of sucked too, in japanese ofcourse. The saturn sucked most though because you were putting way to much effort into hardware you KNEW was going to fail.
    Kaz Hirai: We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that developers want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?

  5. #55
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    That quote from Kaz was talking about PS3 not PS4.^ http://news.cnet.com/sony-ps3-is-har...or-on-purpose/ But since we're pulling up quotes heres what MS said about X1 http://metro.co.uk/2013/05/22/we-pur...osoft-3804061/
    Last edited by mistercrow; 10-08-2013 at 02:01.

  6. #56
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    Tag, your it. Please make a nonsensical post again.
    C'mon, show some SUBSTANCE.

    Yes, it IS easy to program for. Here's our toolkit, including Visual Studio if you prefer that with a DX to PS4 interface library if you need to port a DX based engine to start! Or, you can just get started with our fully english ready dev kit and go native to the system. More of it's power is available at the outset from a simpler initial architecture, and, as I said, digging into what makes it even more powerful will come later, which cover's Kaz's statement.

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    @Sub, yea, PS3 and also Kaz doesn't know what he's talking about. what he meant to say was that there is hidden power on the PS3. but yea, we have realized that you can still have a hidden power even if it's easy to program for.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    For Americans, the PS1 Dev Kits kind of sucked too, in japanese ofcourse.
    are you $#@!ing kidding me? lol. Japanese trolling.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    @Sub, yea, PS3 and also Kaz doesn't know what he's talking about. what he meant to say was that there is hidden power on the PS3. but yea, we have realized that you can still have a hidden power even if it's easy to program for.

    are you $#@!ing kidding me? lol. Japanese trolling.
    So you know what he meant to say?...lol So i guess the rule doesn't apply anymore? Easy to program was bad then but now it's good.

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    No, alot of the orignal PS1 dev kits arrived with little english documentation, no trolling, fact. It's documented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    No, alot of the orignal PS1 dev kits arrived with little english documentation, no trolling, fact. It's documented.
    he meant the japanese were trolling the american devs
    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
    Great song, should have more views :'(

    SHIMAASAAAANIIII!!!!!
    http://i.imgur.com/bP50xuM.png

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  12. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    he meant the japanese were trolling the american devs
    Okay, i don't need anyone thinking i'm against japanese culture, but sending documentation with american dev kits, YEAH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    So you know what he meant to say?...lol So i guess the rule doesn't apply anymore? Easy to program was bad then but now it's good.
    that's what i'm saying, he didn't know what was trying to say here. because no one makes a hardware difficult on purpose. it just happened so that Sony's priorities weren't straight and they were trying to make one CPU for all of their devices and then they decided to put that in the PS3. how stupid is that? yea there's power but it's all useless when not everyone can utilize it. after the PS3, i cannot support $#@! like that anymore. it has to be substantial enough that it has enough raw power to hold with the best and still have power left over...even then it would need to be at least as easy as competition. basically i'll never support that again after seeing the negative effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    No, alot of the orignal PS1 dev kits arrived with little english documentation, no trolling, fact. It's documented.
    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    he meant the japanese were trolling the american devs
    lol almost like they didn't want the western devs to know the "secret arts".

  14. #63
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    Really. All this talk of trade-offs is ridiculous. Both corporations had a solution better than DDR3 and GDDR5 at their disposal. That solution was XDR RAM. They could have easily met the power, bandwidth and latency requirements two-fold if they had chosen to and would not have had to deal with all these trade-offs. Instead, they both pushed the "EASY" button.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Morganator View Post
    Really. All this talk of trade-offs is ridiculous. Both corporations had a solution better than DDR3 and GDDR5 at their disposal. That solution was XDR RAM. They could have easily met the power, bandwidth and latency requirements two-fold if they had chosen to and would not have had to deal with all these trade-offs. Instead, they both pushed the "EASY" button.
    isn't XDR super expensive? and not for graphics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    Nobody except mynd. lol

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    How about we bring this back to the thread title, as we are going back to the usual RAM layout pros and cons. What is it about GDDR5 that is uncomfortable to work with. I'll paste what I said in my last post as well...

    "...Are the trade offs to CPU performance unique to GDDR5 or GDDR in general? If its to GDDR5 only, how come? but if its GDDR in general, then why was it not considered a limiting factor for the 360 which used GDDR3 for its system memory? Is it more of a GDDR5 compared to DDR3 issue where DDR is just tried and tested and GDDR for system ram will require rethinking on how you utilise the memory for CPU usage?"

  18. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sajuuk Khar View Post
    How about we bring this back to the thread title, as we are going back to the usual RAM layout pros and cons. What is it about GDDR5 that is uncomfortable to work with. I'll paste what I said in my last post as well...

    "...Are the trade offs to CPU performance unique to GDDR5 or GDDR in general?
    GDDR ingeneral.
    If its to GDDR5 only, how come? but if its GDDR in general, then why was it not considered a limiting factor for the 360 which used GDDR3 for its system memory?
    It was, thats why they went away from it.

    will say that we do have quite a lot of experience in terms of GPGPU - the Xbox 360 Kinect, we're doing all the Exemplar processing on the GPU so GPGPU is very much a key part of our design for Xbox One. Building on that and knowing what titles want to do in the future. Something like Exemplar... Exemplar ironically doesn't need much ALU. It's much more about the latency you have in terms of memory fetch [latency hiding of the GPU], so this is kind of a natural evolution for us. It's like, OK, it's the memory system which is more important for some particular GPGPU workloads.

    Sounds like they ran into some walls on the 360.
    Is it more of a GDDR5 compared to DDR3 issue where DDR is just tried and tested and GDDR for system ram will require rethinking on how you utilise the memory for CPU usage?"
    Digital Foundry: What were your takeaways from your Xbox 360 post-mortem and how did that shape what you wanted to achieve with the Xbox One architecture?

    Nick Baker: It's hard to pick out a few aspects we can talk about here in a small amount of time. I think one of the key points... We took a few gambles last time around and one of them was to go with a multi-processor approach rather than go with a small number of high IPC [instructions per clock] power-hungry CPU cores. We took the approach of going more parallel with cores more optimised for power/performance area. That worked out pretty well... There are a few things we realised like off-loading audio, we had to tackle that, hence the investment in the audio block. We wanted to have a single chip from the start and get everything as close to memory as possible. Both the CPU and GPU - give everything low latency and high bandwidth - that was the key mantra.

  19. #68
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    but the high bandwidth is not raw. they just wanted DDR3 because they wanted to make profits out the door or close to it. they are charging you for a console that should cost the same as the PS3/360 today...were it not for the expensive cam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    but the high bandwidth is not raw. they just wanted DDR3 because they wanted to make profits out the door or close to it. they are charging you for a console that should cost the same as the PS3/360 today...were it not for the expensive cam.
    I dont think so, I think the virtual and dual o/s etc drove the choice more.

    At the end of the day, the GPU requires the bandwidth, not the CPU, and MS has done the best they could to facilitate that where it counts the most.
    Could thye have done the other funky stuff they are doing with dual o/s etc on GDDR? Probably not with a decent amount of performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    I dont think so, I think the virtual and dual o/s etc drove the choice more.

    At the end of the day, the GPU requires the bandwidth, not the CPU, and MS has done the best they could to facilitate that where it counts the most.
    Could thye have done the other funky stuff they are doing with dual o/s etc on GDDR? Probably not with a decent amount of performance.
    so basically they cared about apps first and then games. i guess those ads are really going to pay off.

    can't blame them for doing something they can pull off. sony never had the choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    so basically they cared about apps first and then games. i guess those ads are really going to pay off.

    can't blame them for doing something they can pull off. sony never had the choice.
    I think they cared about flexibility, they want to be able to upgrade things and add new features, going virtual means they aren't limited to things. They have freely admitted that the 360 dash updates where really hard going to do as it required a lot of backwards compatible stuff to be implemented as well as the newer features. The way they have done it now, games are games they do their own thing, the rest of the dash does its own thing, neither annoys the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    I think they cared about flexibility, they want to be able to upgrade things and add new features, going virtual means they aren't limited to things. They have freely admitted that the 360 dash updates where really hard going to do as it required a lot of backwards compatible stuff to be implemented as well as the newer features. The way they have done it now, games are games they do their own thing, the rest of the dash does its own thing, neither annoys the other.
    and you can't do that on the PS4?

  24. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and you can't do that on the PS4?
    Not unless Sony have done something we don't know about.
    The O/S and the game API are all one in the same linked, like this generation AFAIK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Not unless Sony have done something we don't know about.
    The O/S and the game API are all one in the same linked, like this generation AFAIK.
    but that's not what i'm saying. what i'm saying is, can the PS4 not update in the background? are you saying that the XMB will be interfering with the games?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    GDDR in general.

    It was, thats why they went away from it.


    Sounds like they ran into some walls on the 360.
    So taking from that, the move to DDR was to accommodate the nuances of Kinect (perhaps other GPGPU processes as well) and to a lesser extent sound, at the expense of total system bandwidth and a true unified memory architecture.

    The sound benefits look like its more related to the dedicated hardware rather than the RAM used though.


    Edit: and from Yours and Sufis discussion it looks like the OS systems/environments being a high focus.
    Last edited by Sajuuk Khar; 10-08-2013 at 05:47.

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