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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    By implication, not literally. "Heavy-handed shooter with lots of explosions and stuff, that'll do well on the Xbone." Implication: We of the PS are elite intellectual types that seek existential relevance from our games, not merely robot-go-boom.

    So what does that make me with both 360 and PS3, buying at launch PS4 and XOne? Only half stupid?
    Oh just like you did with my quote? I wasn't saying that at all (your last, "IMPLIED" part, that YOU yourself added in.

    It's no secret shooters (online particularly do well) on Xbox. What is incorrect or wrong about that?

    Mate, you could've just quoted me. All that other stuff? was ALL YOU adding it in.

    NO ONE was saying that's ALL it could do. Of course not. It was YOU GUYS that added and IMPLIED all of that.

    Again, nothing wrong in saying shooters do better on Xbox. Nothing at all. Any negativity is coming internally I'd say...

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    It looks like we won't be seeing this:

    I'm not even getting next gen...
    Ill still be seeing this game.....

  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    I'm not even getting next gen...
    Ill still be seeing this game.....
    you are so slick mynd lol

  5. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by admartian View Post
    Oh just like you did with my quote? I wasn't saying that at all (your last, "IMPLIED" part, that YOU yourself added in.

    It's no secret shooters (online particularly do well) on Xbox. What is incorrect or wrong about that?

    Mate, you could've just quoted me. All that other stuff? was ALL YOU adding it in.

    NO ONE was saying that's ALL it could do. Of course not. It was YOU GUYS that added and IMPLIED all of that.

    Again, nothing wrong in saying shooters do better on Xbox. Nothing at all. Any negativity is coming internally I'd say...
    Sorry ad, it wasn't really what you wrote. It was other more snarky stuff, elsewhere in these forums more than this thread. I didn't even realize it was your quote. I just remembered the quote. Anyway, I didn't mean to single you out and I actually don't think from reading your various posts all over the place you're implying any such thing. Others are, though. And I just find it annoying. Fights over smartphones. Fights over computers. Fights over game consoles. But, again, though your quote was handy as an example, I don't think that was your implication. Mea culpa.

  6. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBK.. View Post


    IW ARE THE sole reason why CoD became such a MP giant. $#@!, they're the studio that created the damn game.
    Treyarch did most of the mp for console MW and forward. Infinity Ward did core graphics, core gameplay and campaign. Which is good because Treyarch did all of COD 3 and oh man was that campaign awful. Anyway, that's why it was so easy for Treyarch to start leading COD development, as it had become so multiplayer centric and they built that modern multiplayer architecture.

  7. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    Treyarch did most of the mp for console MW and forward. Infinity Ward did core graphics, core gameplay and campaign. Which is good because Treyarch did all of COD 3 and oh man was that campaign awful. Anyway, that's why it was so easy for Treyarch to start leading COD development, as it had become so multiplayer centric and they built that modern multiplayer architecture.
    do you have a source for this? Fairly sure i had not heard anything like this.

    it also doesn't make sense because the CODs that Treyarch made always had $#@!ty MP up until the team was dissolved into Treyarch or something to that nature it seems.

  8. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    Treyarch did most of the mp for console MW and forward. Infinity Ward did core graphics, core gameplay and campaign. Which is good because Treyarch did all of COD 3 and oh man was that campaign awful. Anyway, that's why it was so easy for Treyarch to start leading COD development, as it had become so multiplayer centric and they built that modern multiplayer architecture.
    I think I must be reading this wrong are you saying that treyarch did the multiplayer for infinity wards modern warfare's? Sounds like nonsense to me but I'd like to see some sources on this

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  9. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    Sorry ad, it wasn't really what you wrote. It was other more snarky stuff, elsewhere in these forums more than this thread. I didn't even realize it was your quote. I just remembered the quote. Anyway, I didn't mean to single you out and I actually don't think from reading your various posts all over the place you're implying any such thing. Others are, though. And I just find it annoying. Fights over smartphones. Fights over computers. Fights over game consoles. But, again, though your quote was handy as an example, I don't think that was your implication. Mea culpa.
    All good then.

    Yes there are those people that imply that, which I guess is what you were addressing.

    No harm no foul.

    #IndieStation4 and proud of it.

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    Maybe I should not say Treyarch but rather Treyarch teams. Back then none of it was credited to Treyarch. Treyarch teams were brought in to add man hours to development so Infinity Ward could make date because Activision is serious about release dates. I believe a serious point of contention between Acti and IW founders. Anyway, what they out the Treyarch teams on was multiplayer. The whole game is credited to IW, though perhaps Treyarch is mentioned somewhere in the credits. IW had all the name credibility. In fact even after the IW founders and Acti split the transition to Treyarch taking credit for COD titles was slow. I'm not saying IW didn't contribute, especially to specification documents, but Treyarch teams did a great deal of implementation and troubleshooting and refinement. This is all Acti private business that they were under no obligation to divulge but I was under the impression it was one of those worst kept secret things.

    Infinity Ward got all the credit for MW. They did not do all the work. They never would have made date if they had.

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    Here, read this. About the best I can find in a hurry. And remember that besides a couple of very specific statements it only alludes to cooperative development between the studios. Even if that cooperation was forced upon them by Activision. Keep in mind, back then Acti wasn't in any way publicizing what Treyarch did for IW titles. IW was the showcase star and Treyarch was just the bullpen full of relievers intended to keep the revenue stream alive every year developing an interim game Acti could slap the COD name on.

    http://www.craveonline.com/gaming/ar...er-development

  12. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    Here, read this. About the best I can find in a hurry. And remember that besides a couple of very specific statements it only alludes to cooperative development between the studios. Even if that cooperation was forced upon them by Activision. Keep in mind, back then Acti wasn't in any way publicizing what Treyarch did for IW titles. IW was the showcase star and Treyarch was just the bullpen full of relievers intended to keep the revenue stream alive every year developing an interim game Acti could slap the COD name on.

    http://www.craveonline.com/gaming/ar...er-development
    That link doesn't allude to any of the stuff your saying though. All it talks about is how after an infinity ward cod how treyarch tries to expand and better their multiplayer in treyarchs next cod. Nothing about them working on infinitywards version.

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  13. #112
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    That goes a ways to proving my point. When MW shipped World at War was at least a year into development and only a year from shipping. There wasn't time to strip out COD3's multiplayer from WW and implement MW's multiplayer architecture. Not unless the WW multiplayer teams had worked on MW, not unless they'd been designing into WW something similar to MW multiplayer long before MW shipped.

    Activision seriously considered handing all of MW2 to Treyarch and shuttering Infinity Ward. That's recorded in court documents. There's no way Activision would have devised that as a strategy for their showcase franchise unless they knew Treyarch could do it. Because they'd done significant parts of it before.

    This isn't something I can prove with a Wikipedia link. But consider it's well known Activision holds their developers close and they tell them how they're going to do things. For a long time there was a lot made of the so-called competition between IW and Treyarch over the COD franchise. A lot of that is so much noise. It better suited Activision if they worked together more, so they worked together. It's also notable the more Treyarch has had to with COD the better the multiplayer has become and the wider multiplayer audience reached. Activision went to war with Infinity Ward and acted like they didn't need them. Not out of hubris or foolishness, but because they really didn't need them.
    Last edited by sanfordmay; 10-31-2013 at 01:45.

  14. #113
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    You wrote a lot of stuff but you don't actually have any proof that treyarch did original infinitywards multiplayer just mere conjecture. That site you linked proved nothing and didn't even imply anything you said it would. Just seems like you're reaching.

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  15. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
    You wrote a lot of stuff but you don't actually have any proof that treyarch did original infinitywards multiplayer just mere conjecture. That site you linked proved nothing and didn't even imply anything you said it would. Just seems like you're reaching.

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    It's not conjecture. It might be incorrect in whole or in part but it's based on information I was told during MW development and by another individual within three years after MW's release. Both of whom should have known what they were talking about, though I can't swear what they told me was accurate. 3arc definitely didn't do the original mp. For COD and COD2, Infinity Ward did all of it. The second person was cautiously talking around NDA and it's possible he was hinting one thing and I took his statements to mean something else. That part of the conversation was light background and I never used it. In fact, I had to agree in the first place to use parts of the conversation following very narrow criteria. The details of MW development weren't in that criteria.

    But there's no readily available proof. For better or worse, games journalists don't do much deep background or investigative work, so there's nothing much out there about the history of COD that wouldn't pass vetting by an Activision PR rep.

    You like to debate a lot. Almost as much as I do. That means we're both brilliant polemicists. Or obstinate as old stones.

  16. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    It's not conjecture. It might be incorrect in whole or in part but it's based on information I was told during MW development and by another individual within three years after MW's release. Both of whom should have known what they were talking about, though I can't swear what they told me was accurate. 3arc definitely didn't do the original mp. For COD and COD2, Infinity Ward did all of it. The second person was cautiously talking around NDA and it's possible he was hinting one thing and I took his statements to mean something else. That part of the conversation was light background and I never used it. In fact, I had to agree in the first place to use parts of the conversation following very narrow criteria. The details of MW development weren't in that criteria.

    But there's no readily available proof. For better or worse, games journalists don't do much deep background or investigative work, so there's nothing much out there about the history of COD that wouldn't pass vetting by an Activision PR rep.

    You like to debate a lot. Almost as much as I do. That means we're both brilliant polemicists. Or obstinate as old stones.
    So not journalists then?


    I kid, but....

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    Quote Originally Posted by admartian View Post
    So not journalists then?


    I kid, but....
    Hey, you said it, not me. I would've said it, though. When it happened, I figured out the whole story about how Activision threatened Sony into not approving the Rock Band PS3 patch that would let you use Guitar Hero guitars as extras for Rock Band, at least until RB separate peripherals were available. And my editor wouldn't let me write it. Now that story was based in conjecture, but pretty well considered conjecture. Not to mention I was right, as later confirmed to the public by a Sony rep using a somewhat more diplomatic word than "threatened." My editor said I was wrong, that it really was a technical issue. Yeah like Harmonix didn't know how to write a driver for a peripheral they designed in the first place. But he said I was just wild-guessing wrong. I don't know he actually believed I was wrong. I put together a pretty good case. I think he just didn't want to make anyone at Activision mad at him. After it came out I was right all he'd ever do when I brought it up was mumble at me. He missed a good story. But the Activision $#@!tail party invites kept coming.

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  19. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    Hey, you said it, not me. I would've said it, though. When it happened, I figured out the whole story about how Activision threatened Sony into not approving the Rock Band PS3 patch that would let you use Guitar Hero guitars as extras for Rock Band, at least until RB separate peripherals were available. And my editor wouldn't let me write it. Now that story was based in conjecture, but pretty well considered conjecture. Not to mention I was right, as later confirmed to the public by a Sony rep using a somewhat more diplomatic word than "threatened." My editor said I was wrong, that it really was a technical issue. Yeah like Harmonix didn't know how to write a driver for a peripheral they designed in the first place. But he said I was just wild-guessing wrong. I don't know he actually believed I was wrong. I put together a pretty good case. I think he just didn't want to make anyone at Activision mad at him. After it came out I was right all he'd ever do when I brought it up was mumble at me. He missed a good story. But the Activision $#@!tail party invites kept coming.
    I take a lot of this from IGN's podcast beyond. Where they're basically buddied up with all/most/a very good chunk of game devs. Hearing stories of them hanging out often and the like.

    I would imagine it very hard to very critical of game when you're drinking buddies or share pizza with the guys/gals that work on that game.

    Bot saying it can't happen, but like you've said, Editors etc, that want to maintain privileges can get in the way. Though I don't think this is necessarily isolated in the games industry, I'm sure this happens with movies/music etc too. But there are enough (i.e. way more) reviewers and critics out there to ensure that at least a few of the "privileged" reviews and pieces are part of a minority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by admartian View Post
    I take a lot of this from IGN's podcast beyond. Where they're basically buddied up with all/most/a very good chunk of game devs. Hearing stories of them hanging out often and the like.

    I would imagine it very hard to very critical of game when you're drinking buddies or share pizza with the guys/gals that work on that game.

    Bot saying it can't happen, but like you've said, Editors etc, that want to maintain privileges can get in the way. Though I don't think this is necessarily isolated in the games industry, I'm sure this happens with movies/music etc too. But there are enough (i.e. way more) reviewers and critics out there to ensure that at least a few of the "privileged" reviews and pieces are part of a minority.
    Movies, there was a big scandal about that maybe 20 years ago. Studios sending second and especially third tier film critics on junkets to screen films. Resort hotels, free food and drinks, deluxe treatment, they watch the film and then write the review. 99% good reviews. Sony, as a matter of fact, was a prime offender in that debacle, but then there was always the top tier of film critics to count on. They didn't take those trips and refused to review films the studios wouldn't screen locally. Problem is, there's no top tier in games critics. Few years ago Ubi sent a bunch of games press to Venice to preview an AC game. Because part of the game was set in a fictional, historical Venice, they had to see real, modern Venice in order to properly consider the game, right? Around the same time Capcom sent games press to, get back, Monaco, to look at the fall line up. You know, major JAPANESE games publisher sends minimum wage, no benefits, basement-dwelling blogger kid from CLEVELAND, USA to THE FREAKING PRINCIPALITY OF MONACO to drink and gamble and hang with, ah, hmm, call them very well liberated gorgeous European girls, and maybe check out some new video games, and that kid is going to write anything negative about those games he saw? The ones he doesn't even remember seeing but, hey, he's got the press kit so he'll bang out 400 words on the spectacular upcoming retail slate from good old Capcom. Only 400 words because it's hard to write much with that bad a hangover.

    Anyway, I'll spare you the entire litany of games press sins, but the reform of games journalism is sort of a quiet crusade of mine. Very quiet crusade. Practically inaudible, as I doubt I'll ever really do anything about it since it's not likely to put my kids through college or keep a roof over their heads until they get there. But my favorite piece of games journalism remains Bow, $#@! (http://www.alwaysblack.com/blackbox/bow$#@!.html) because, though he's no Kingsley Amis, nor even a Martin Amis, the guy can write and the piece was reasoned, heartfelt, socially relevant and had nothing to do with any developer's or publisher's PR agenda for that year. Bow, $#@! became pretty much the gold standard for the so-called "new games journalism," and for a minute there I expected maybe a nascent renaissance. But the new games journalism turned into, more or less, Pitchfork record reviews. Meaning, lots of lovely, elegant and deeply descriptive adjectives pulled nearly at random from various thesauri and, alas, bearing no illustrative relevance to the subject at hand. Not even as metaphor. Not even at a stretch. I hate tech spec style game reviews full of jargon and lingo but I hate Pitchfork record reviews more. I figure I read English pretty well and I have no idea what their writers mean. I've got this theory Pitchfork is some front for a Cold War era espionage agency and they never got the word to close up and come home. Those aren't record reviews, those are encoded communications between deep cover international field operatives.
    Last edited by sanfordmay; 10-31-2013 at 12:56.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    people need to stop downplaying though, it's going to be a great game and will likely be a contender to COD and BF. if you like the game, get an xbox for it or build a nice PC. it's not a big deal to admit that a competition has a juggernaut.
    Hmm idk a lot of people don't like games that are clones of another game, so many games this gen claimed they would be the next COD and failed hard. Socom was the worst offense to the COD copy and paste routine. Most games failed because people are seemingly elitist about being good at COD and have an obsession for the highest KDR and being the first to prestige or the most prestigious. Initially there will be interest in Titan Fall but if the mechs end up being a game breaker or the mobility of the player Attack on Titan-ish style fails. That's it for Titan Fall everyone will go back to COD they will find the new mechanics too cumbersome, COD sells like hotcakes because it's the easiest game to play.Most COD players are scrubs on any other shooters.

    History tends to repeat itself remember Halo Killer every fps had to be a "Halo Killer" when ps3 first came out. Even though there games that we better it was the popularity of Halo that Reigned supreme. When Killzone 2 came out it was better than COD but because of the weighty controls and learning curve a lot of people bashed it. Then they removed the weighty controls in KZ3 and people still bashed it even though it was still better than COD. The same thing is gonna happen to KZSF and Titan Fall though these games are much better than COD people are going to stick to the easiest game to play.
    Last edited by hood; 10-31-2013 at 14:17.
    "I think all those developers who are saying, "We donít want to do a PS3 game," or "Itís really difficult to do it," should shut up and make their games. If you have time to complain about it, then you should be spending your time working on getting the most from the hardware."

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    I see your point and I did make this point before it received all the awards. So I'm giving it benefit of the doubt.

    It does seem like it's something new and interesting, however, it is not going to be as easy as COD and that's one of the biggest reasons for COD's success.

    BF tried to take COD's base but what they have now are the enthusiast gamers rather than casual, which is also fine because why go against COD when you can cater to those that don't play COD?

    Yeah, we'll have to wait and see but my guess is also that it's too complicated for the newbies. also since it's one platform...i sort of feel like that limits its potential to be successful. look at games like UC and TLOU, they still only got about 5m sales. Compare that to GTA 5 (though unfair to compare as GTA is just an outlier).

    I'm thinking it may have a similar effect where people just don't care about games that were once exclusive and later multiplat. Bioshock ... Mass Effect ... see the pattern?

    Then again, this is an ONLINE shooter, so it's possible it might still be popular, it'll be interesting to see what happens to it once it arrives on the PS4 and how much the first one sells on the X1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hood View Post
    Most COD players are scrubs on any other shooters.
    You have to admit, though, that for mass online shooter appeal, COD is genius. Battlefield games do a lot of skills balancing by player class. Pick the class that best suits your skills. But that means maybe you have to be an engineer when you want to be Rambo. COD balances with multiple assists for slow reflex players and virtually undetectable handicaps for fast reflex superstars. Practiced and faster players can dominate the COD leaderboards, mostly by amount of time they put in online, but they can't dominate every match they play. If you're willing to put in the practice time on just one COD game, from there out you've got a chance against anyone. You get to be king every dozen or two matches, and you might get mopped up here and there, but so does the guy who's in 14th place on the Team Deathmatch leaderboards.

    People can say what they want about Activision and games as an art form, but in games as an entertainment business they've taken what should be an online experience appealing almost exclusively to exotic firearms aficionados, modern military buffs and gamers gifted with especially fast reflexes and made it a pop culture buzzword, and a game most gamers play at least some and a game people will laugh at you if you call them gamers play at least 10 or 20 hours a week for six months after release.

    There's a reason why they call it pop culture. It's popular. COD is Katy Perry. Might be hard pressed to call it art and sure it's barely skin deep, but it's got a good beat and you can dance to it, even if you only ever dance in your kitchen making soup when you think no one is watching.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    ...GTA is just an outlier).
    GTA is a perverse anomaly in my opinion. I just don't get it. It's a technical marvel. When Rockstar says open-world they aren't kidding around. But every time, game after game, it's the same damn thing. The crime narratives are so stale not even Scorsese would touch them. The dialogue is atrocious. I think they try to get by on a satire excuse, but, no, it's just bad. The adult content doesn't bother me, it's that all the adult content plays like it's tacked in there purely for prurient interest. Yet they try to do anything different, it doesn't sell well and it gets at best mixed reviews. Red Dead Redemption used the same general mechanics and critically and commercially did the best of any GTA-based digression, but ultimately RDR was just GTA set back a little more than a century in the past.

    People are always telling me they want to access to all the structural geometry in new GTA titles, explore the interior of every building even if it's not part of a mission. Why? So your lapdog henchman can tell you, "Hey, homes, cheg it. Wan of dem new iFruit computers over dare on dat desk."

    My thing with GTA, V like all the others since the first PS2 title, I love the core concepts and the scope, but the content I just freaking hate. Do something different already. And I don't mean different like replace the cars with horses.

  25. #123
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    yeah i totally agree with you about 99%. that 1% i differ is that yes, while MOST of the time, COD does make great players come to their knees against newbs...that's not always true and there's a certain point where you will win no matter what...against a newb. it's not just about how long you play (because yes you need to know the maps and what weapon suits you and in what situation it suits you and what perks you need) but also about how good you are at picking the right things and how obsessed you are with the right stuff. Black Ops 2 did an amazing job with that due to their new and almost evolutionary inventory system.

    To let you choose whatever you want and give you a max 10 slots...wow, works amazingly. only thing i'm impressed as much of as of now is the new system BF4 is introducing, it looks amazing but i still have to see.

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    well, let me start off with this: have you played GTA5?
    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    GTA is a perverse anomaly in my opinion. I just don't get it. It's a technical marvel. When Rockstar says open-world they aren't kidding around. But every time, game after game, it's the same damn thing. The crime narratives are so stale not even Scorsese would touch them. The dialogue is atrocious. I think they try to get by on a satire excuse, but, no, it's just bad. The adult content doesn't bother me, it's that all the adult content plays like it's tacked in there purely for prurient interest. Yet they try to do anything different, it doesn't sell well and it gets at best mixed reviews. Red Dead Redemption used the same general mechanics and critically and commercially did the best of any GTA-based digression, but ultimately RDR was just GTA set back a little more than a century in the past.

    People are always telling me they want to access to all the structural geometry in new GTA titles, explore the interior of every building even if it's not part of a mission. Why? So your lapdog henchman can tell you, "Hey, homes, cheg it. Wan of dem new iFruit computers over dare on dat desk."

    My thing with GTA, V like all the others since the first PS2 title, I love the core concepts and the scope, but the content I just freaking hate. Do something different already. And I don't mean different like replace the cars with horses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    ...the new system BF4 is introducing, it looks amazing but i still have to see.
    It's a given I'll buy COD Ghosts. I like COD for at least a few months, my sons like it. It's just an all around indulgence for us. I didn't play BF3, but I used to love PC BF games -- ridiculous hours straight put into online play -- and I'm thinking about buying BF4 for PS3 and then just doing the $10 upgrade. I posted about the specifics of the PS4 upgrade and what, if any, restrictions there are on the upgrade and as of a few minutes ago 84 people viewed that post and no one has answered any of the questions. So I'm getting the idea there is some general confusion about how these upgrades will work. And if I don't know what I'm getting in the upgrade program, I figure I'm better off waiting to buy a retail boxed BF4 on PS4 launch day.

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