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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    I would agree with you that maybe the GPU was constraining things (and probably is in BF4) if we were seeing games simply blowing our minds, but no one could level that accusation at COD with a straight face.

    At the end of the day, one of the reasons to drop the res is because you simply cant do what you want to do in 1/60th of a second. But considering, BF4 is doing a hell of a lot more than COD:Ghosts is, could we really say thats the reason Ghosts is struggling to push out its frame at 60fps?
    That leaves us with something else taking up that time.
    I am wondering, if there is a screw up somewhere with copying from ESRAM back into the DDR3 at the end of each frame, which you would have to do, because you generally ping pong from display plane to display plane in the GPU.
    (i.e display one frame while drawing the next).
    This is what the move engine is supposed to be capable of doing, while the GPU is writing the next frame.
    Otherwise, if they aren't doing it, the GPU has to copy form ESRAM->GPU which would stall the pipeline and would be directly impacted upon how much data it has to move back (ie. Display resolution)
    In other words, regardless of what you actually "created" you'd have a hard coded traffic block slowing the GPU down.
    Something like that wold affect everything from shadow maps, through to G-buffers in deferred rendering. In other words some of the things you do use to build said frame.
    Correct on 1/60th of a second.

    I honestly feel that the DME are going to be a huge hurdle for those who don't use them judiciously.
    It's shared bandwidth.

    http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusi...-move-engines/

    And Despite what's above, though we won't know until later, the leaked block diagram I examined for Durango was that ESRAM was traced ONLY to the CU block and not to the DME, but i'll accept that may not be the case.
    So, it's going to be up to these developers to set some functions up that work DME, ESRAM and GPU RAM access efficiently to pipeline operations.
    Microsoft is going to have to work on their tiled resources management with developers to gain performance and ease what appears to be at least developer unfamiliarity and at worst frustration.

    I wish I had the white paper on it to really figure it out myself.

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  3. #102
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    I will just leave this here

    http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/x1...res.453263349/

    32mb of ESRAM can hold 6GB OF TEXTURES!

    It will let developers do more with less RAM, certainly, which likely plays an important part (combined with the eSRAM and move engines the Xbox One uses) in making DDR3 RAM a viable solution within the X1 architecture.

    A lot of people have criticised the use of DDR3 in the X1 as though MS' engineers are some bumbling Hurdurs who had no clue of the advantages of using unified graphics RAM in a console - despite the fact that this was the exact solution that the Xbox 360 used.

    They used DDR3 because it was the only type of RAM that they could guarantee an 8GB console with, which was necessary for the 3GB OS with split screen multitasking they envisioned.

    But they didn't just throw it in there with abandon. eSRAM, move engines, texture tiling - the architecture has been entirely custom built to deal specifically of the problems of DDR3.
    Last edited by FightingSmile64; 11-03-2013 at 07:30.

  4. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    and we have nvidia logo there lol

  5. #104
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    ^don't you believe it?

  6. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    I will just leave this here http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/x1...res.453263349/ 32mb of ESRAM can hold 6GB OF TEXTURES! It will let developers do more with less RAM, certainly, which likely plays an important part (combined with the eSRAM and move engines the Xbox One uses) in making DDR3 RAM a viable solution within the X1 architecture. A lot of people have criticised the use of DDR3 in the X1 as though MS' engineers are some bumbling Hurdurs who had no clue of the advantages of using unified graphics RAM in a console - despite the fact that this was the exact solution that the Xbox 360 used. They used DDR3 because it was the only type of RAM that they could guarantee an 8GB console with, which was necessary for the 3GB OS with split screen multitasking they envisioned. But they didn't just throw it in there with abandon. eSRAM, move engines, texture tiling - the architecture has been entirely custom built to deal specifically of the problems of DDR3.
    Proof is in the pudding and so far its not looking good when the majority of Xbone games are only 720p while the PS4 library of games is 1080p. (BF4 at 900p aside).
    Last edited by mistercrow; 11-03-2013 at 07:58.

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    yer but the thing is devs are having issues with the ESRAM, my gut feeling is the drivers and the tools. The reason I say this is because MS have jumped around with their software etc and have upped GPU and CPU. They are chopping and changing whilst the ps4 is a simplistic design, its so easy.

    My verdict, to early to call, can go either way. However if we see the next installment of call of duty running at 720p things DO NOT LOOK good for MS

  8. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    yer but the thing is devs are having issues with the ESRAM, my gut feeling is the drivers and the tools. The reason I say this is because MS have jumped around with their software etc and have upped GPU and CPU. They are chopping and changing whilst the ps4 is a simplistic design, its so easy. My verdict, to early to call, can go either way. However if we see the next installment of call of duty running at 720p things DO NOT LOOK good for MS
    All speculation. Time will tell I guess.

  9. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    ^don't you believe it?
    when i see real results on actual x1 hardware ill believe that. up to date developers claim esram as the real bottleneck in x1 architecture. also actual speed of x1 esram now is 102gb/s with theoretical peak as 192gb/s. but as i understands this peak can be reached only from hardware side. and now imagine what is happend then ppl buy xboxes with 102gb/s ram and year later ms release 192gb/s esram version

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    Quote Originally Posted by FireSol View Post
    when i see real results on actual x1 hardware ill believe that. up to date developers claim esram as the real bottleneck in x1 architecture. also actual speed of x1 esram now is 102gb/s with theoretical peak as 192gb/s. but as i understands this peak can be reached only from hardware side. and now imagine what is happend then ppl buy xboxes with 102gb/s ram and year later ms release 192gb/s esram version
    I think we will see these tiled resources get a work out when remedy launches their game, Quantum Break. They are going to push the X1 as hard as they can go, I think well I hope so

    I doubt they will do that, doesn't an update do that? MS said that they could release an update that enables the esram to free up or something I don't know........ If they don't and actually release a new X1 with updated hardware etc I want it free of charge

  11. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    I think we will see these tiled resources get a work out when remedy launches their game, Quantum Break. They are going to push the X1 as hard as they can go, I think well I hope so
    i wanna see QB actual gameplay, not this cutscene, but actual gamplay. i saw some leaks from Order and from that what i saw they can reach or maybe suppas reveal trailer. Same with DriveClub, the difference between e3 build and last teasers is HUGE and they still have few month for polish the game.

  12. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireSol View Post
    i wanna see QB actual gameplay, not this cutscene, but actual gamplay. i saw some leaks from Order and from that what i saw they can reach or maybe suppas reveal trailer. Same with DriveClub, the difference between e3 build and last teasers is HUGE and they still have few month for polish the game.
    Yer true I want more info on the game, looked really interesting. Also remedy said that is was actual in game engine If I recall correctly. Yer seeing how I am going X1 first I most defiantly want to pick up a ps4 for The Order. Seriously, KSF does not appeal to me, seeing how I have halo on xbox, not a fan of racing games however when I saw the order I was intrigued at a moments glance. When I grab a ps4 day one purchase as well as naughty dogs new game.... as I missed out on the Last of US

  13. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by FightingSmile64 View Post
    Yer true I want more info on the game, looked really interesting. Also remedy said that is was actual in game engine If I recall correctly.
    this also was actual game engine

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  15. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    The only thing devs are likley to be using it for is as a framebuffer at this point.


    I know you ve been saying this for a while, but its not at all that simple, you only need put you framebuffer in the 32mb of esram, of which their is plenty of space to do that..
    Its extremely unlikely anyone has used the esram for anything other than that at this point.
    Given we have seen no difference in raw texture or polygon count, we can discount DDR3 as having any issues with being able to feed the GPU, so really, you don't NEED to put anything in the ESRAM other than your out put.

    Theoretically, this isn't an issues, hell its a massive win, but somewhere something has got a bit screwed up, there is enough room in that 32mb of ram to store 4 1080p 32 bit buffers, that's enough for 2x MSAA even.
    I think the capacity of the ESRAM to handle all the needed image buffers comes to a halt when deferred rendering techniques come into play. All the extra buffers would push the frame buffer needs past the 32MB limit quite easily, considering for 720p you need around 30MB or so.

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  17. #114
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  18. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sajuuk Khar View Post
    I think the capacity of the ESRAM to handle all the needed image buffers comes to a halt when deferred rendering techniques come into play. All the extra buffers would push the frame buffer needs past the 32MB limit quite easily, considering for 720p you need around 30MB or so.
    With a bit of thought and packing it can be done.
    Its by no mean straightforward however.
    And some companies such as Unreal 3 only do a differed render for the lighting pass only.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    And you thought I see dead people

  19. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    With a bit of thought and packing it can be done.
    Its by no mean straightforward however.
    And some companies such as Unreal 3 only do a differed render for the lighting pass only.
    Unreal 3 yes, but Epic are pushing an almost completely deferred setup for Unreal 4. It looks to be a common trend with engines heading that direction.

    Frostbite 3, cryENGINE and Unreal 4 are all starting to lean on deferred rendering, more so than just lighting passes. Seeing as those engines are going to pop up in a lot of games in the coming generation, multiplats could improve only so much, until work arounds and adaptations are potentially made to close the gap some what. Still then 32MB is always going to be a limiting factor for the frame buffer on the X1

  20. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    is he acting dumb on purpose?

  21. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    is he acting dumb on purpose?
    that stuff is calling "corporate position". firstly we have "the powah of the cloud", secondly "ballance" and now we have "720p upscaled is better than 1080p native"

  22. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireSol View Post
    that stuff is calling "corporate position". firstly we have "the powah of the cloud", secondly "ballance" and now we have "720p upscaled is better than 1080p native"

    One does not simply 720p.

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  24. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Praetor Illuminatus View Post
    One does not simply 720p.

  25. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    is he acting dumb on purpose?
    Do you see his face? Would you trust a guy that looks like that?


  26. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireSol View Post
    Hahaha! I used to be one of those XBox fanboys you guys would probably hate. I think it would be hilarious if that gif had a slight green tint to the glasses as well lol

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