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    Picture of Playstation 4 APU die- 20 compute units visible - Chipworks



    Has 20 physical compute units - 2 disabled for yield? or lying in wait for PSP style firmware activation?

    http://www.chipworks.com/en/technica...ore-processor/
    Last edited by victorijapoosp; 11-17-2013 at 20:13.

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefein View Post
    "video not available in your country" :'(

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
    Great song, should have more views :'(

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    "video not available in your country"
    Is This Love - Whitesnake LOL


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    hahaha I've refound it on yt.

    Exactly my sentiment, I'm surprised no one else has posted the article.

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    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    hahaha I've refound it on yt.

    Exactly my sentiment, I'm surprised no one else has posted the article.
    There was an article a couple days ago, about 128 extra stream processors on the die. This whole thing about letting parts of a chip be dead to increase yield is from the olden days. It's very likely Sony is keeping them inactive until some point they will turn them on with a firmware update. Looks like Sony did build a little nitro booster into the GPU.

    128 SP Unaccounted for in PS4 GPU ‘Pitcairn’ Raising the Total Upto 1280 SPs

    Well before everyone blows the gaskit, keep this in mind: Even though the logic of the source is undeniable it could very will be that the SPs are dead and left over in the fab process. Meaning that they are as good as useless. However i will admit this that the probability of them merely inactive is far greater than permanently deactivated . Ok here it is. The leak source this time is MyDrivers.com. They apparently took a tear down of the PS4 APU and noticed something peculiar. There are 20 groups of 64 SPs. 20×64 = 1280. That is 128 more than the official record of 1152.

    Notice how there are 20 AMD Radeon Graphic Cores. We know each core is a group of 64 Stream Processors/Shader Cores/ALUs(Whatever it is you want to call them) and 20×64 =/= 1152. Infact we previously thought there would be only 18 cores, but as you can see there are 20. So we basically have 2 Full Cores out of 20 unaccounted for. That is 10% of Pitcairn’s power right there.

    An Update by Sony could Unlock the remaining 128 SPs or are they already working?

    There are basically three possibilities. 1) The 128 SPs are ‘dead’ (Yield) and permanently deactivated. There are ways to do so. 2) Those SPs are active and are hidden to provide extra juice (unlikely). 3) Those SPs are inactive and can be reactivated by Sony. Now it is option 3 that takes our fancy. If the going gets tough later down the road, Sony can just release a ‘miraculous’ patch that will boost the PS4′s GPU ‘Pitcairn’s power by 10%. Which is quite a decent amount we might add.

    http://wccftech.com/ps4-apu-apparent...sors-10-power/
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    this is common practice for GPU's and such. Intel do it for the i5's, and i7's? (iirc) the gtx 670 is a 680 with bits turned off etc. same goes form 7950 and the 7970 for AMD.

    The CellBE shipped with two SPE's disabled.

    It is better to manufacture 20 with the intent of using only 18. if one dies, you still have a failsafe and the whole chip doesn't get scrapped.

    If their manufacture process is sufficient that all PS4's are shipping with 20 working CU, then a firmware update would be capable of what people are supposing. however, given there are failing units (im sure this is being overinflated tbh) it's unlikely. all 20 must work across all PS4's.

    EDIT:
    i forgot to add, i like these chip shots!

    look at how small a space the CPU takes!
    compare that to how the PS3 still has an entire chip to accomplish the same thing!

    RE-EDIT:
    Down the right hand side on a traditional CPU is where you'd get your I/O clock frequency (the clock speed). how does an APU manage two clock speeds? (one for the GPU and one for the CPU) do they sync to the same clock or what?

    ...

    i feel the answer might be obvious but im being a bit slow today...
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 11-17-2013 at 22:04.
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    I remember the PS3 having to disable 2 SPUs for yield. They Fabbed the CellBE Alien tech together with Toshiba so they had to take the hit. But surely AMD's tech is very very mature technology by now.

    And now Sony have the manufacturing outsourced to TSMC who have decades of fabbing experience and atleast 3 years of fabbing GCN, Basically ps3 mid-gen where sony was able to reduce die size for ps3 slim. Couldn't Sony specify that they will only buy tested and fully working units for their PS4.

    Also... I have not heard of any APU related breakdowns. It's usually people messing up their firmware updates and the HDMI port.
    Last edited by victorijapoosp; 11-17-2013 at 22:04.

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fijiandoce View Post
    this is common practice for GPU's and such. Intel do it for the i5's, and i7's? (iirc) the gtx 670 is a 680 with bits turned off etc. same goes form 7950 and the 7970 for AMD.

    The CellBE shipped with two SPE's disabled.
    Just a minor correction, Cell shipped with 1 core switched off. Developers only had access to 6 SPE's however because the seventh was reserved for the OS hypervisor.

    It is better to manufacture 20 with the intent of using only 18. if one dies, you still have a failsafe and the whole chip doesn't get scrapped.

    If their manufacture process is sufficient that all PS4's are shipping with 20 working CU, then a firmware update would be capable of what people are supposing. however, given there are failing units (im sure this is being overinflated tbh) it's unlikely. all 20 must work across all PS4's.
    That exactly it, we already know that the X1 has 14 CU's but 2 are switched of for yield purposes.

    EDIT:
    i forgot to add, i like these chip shots!

    look at how small a space the CPU takes!
    compare that to how the PS3 still has an entire chip to accomplish the same thing!

    RE-EDIT:
    Down the right hand side on a traditional CPU is where you'd get your I/O clock frequency (the clock speed). how does an APU manage two clock speeds? (one for the GPU and one for the CPU) do they sync to the same clock or what?

    ...

    i feel the answer might be obvious but im being a bit slow today...
    They run using different multipliers. For every tick on the clock on the GPU, the CPU has it's clock multiplied to do twice as many cycles in the same time. They both stay in sync since one is exactly twice the speed of the other.

  11. Likes Fijiandoce, victorijapoosp wishes they had posted this first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabjabs View Post
    Just a minor correction, Cell shipped with 1 core switched off. Developers only had access to 6 SPE's however because the seventh was reserved for the OS hypervisor.



    That exactly it, we already know that the X1 has 14 CU's but 2 are switched of for yield purposes.



    They run using different multipliers. For every tick on the clock on the GPU, the CPU has it's clock multiplied to do twice as many cycles in the same time. They both stay in sync since one is exactly twice the speed of the other.
    But sony are not manufacturing the chips. So the yield issue isn't that much of a big deal unless TSMC offer a significantly cheaper deal per unit if they are "disabled" for higher yields per wafer. I wonder how much cheaper it would actually be. Surely all of this is dependent upon the failure rate of the shader cores/compute units during the testing and binning process post manufacturing?

    Judging by the cheap price of the R9 and R7 AMD GPUs, that are being pushed to the MAX of performance and heat, yet still remain operational. Isn't it entirely possible that the manufacturing process is very mature, and the indicative of good yields?

    R9 270X (previously the Radeon 7870 GHz / Pitcairn)

    Stream Processors 1280
    Clock Frequency up-to 1.05 GHz
    2.69 TFLOPS compute performance
    2 or 4 GB memory at 5.6 Gbps
    180W TDP
    PCI-E 3.0
    API - DirectX 11.2 / OpenGL 4.3 / Mantle

    Although the PS4 is clocked lower for reduced energy consumption and heat. The parallels are striking, of course it's uniquely integrated into an APU plus the sony customisations, which may have a detrimental effect on yield, because they can't be binned into a lower category APU for use elsewhere.

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
    Great song, should have more views :'(

    SHIMAASAAAANIIII!!!!!

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    Yeah there is also the issue that the Ps4's APU was probably finalised 6 months+ ago so they had to allow for potential issues that might arise in manufacturing.

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    My guess would be its for good yield.

    PS4 has little to no competition.

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    Its for yield. The xbo also has disabled shader cores for yield.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Its for yield. The xbo also has disabled shader cores for yield.


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    Are both XB1 and PS4 chips manufactured at the same factory?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Agriel View Post
    Are both XB1 and PS4 chips manufactured at the same factory?
    Don't know, but it is pretty standard for AMD to do this.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Don't know, but it is pretty standard for AMD to do this.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I was just wondering if Sony's good yield had an effect on the rumors that MS had a bad yield. They use almost the exact chips if I am not mistaken, just one has a different number of cores disabled.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Agriel View Post
    I was just wondering if Sony's good yield had an effect on the rumors that MS had a bad yield. They use almost the exact chips if I am not mistaken, just one has a different number of cores disabled.
    The rumor was the eSRAM, which is a component not on the PS4 at all. The actual APU chip on the XBO includes this esram on the silicon.
    It certainly adds another thing that could go wrong, so I imagine yields will always be lower than what Sony are doing simply cause less can go wrong on Sony's chip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Don't know, but it is pretty standard for AMD to do this.


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    AMD are fabless they do not manufacture, so no. Manufacturing is carried out by "Global Foundries" or "Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing company"

    The rumor was the eSRAM, which is a component not on the PS4 at all. The actual APU chip on the XBO includes this esram on the silicon.
    Rumour? It's fact. Truthfact even. I think according to Cboat Esram is a burden trying to compensate for Xbone's poor spec DDR3.

    According to Cboat and vgleaks, The GPUs are different, Xbone is using Bonaire GPU with addition of eSram, taking up significant Die area, ramping up heat and manufacturing complexity.

    Fortunately by using GDDR5, the PS4 APU doesn't use anything as alien. So the PS4 yields should be significantly higher, at a much higher performance.
    Last edited by victorijapoosp; 11-18-2013 at 08:17.

    Maths is biased! It keeps telling me the PS4 is 50% more powerful than XboxOne!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    The rumor was the eSRAM, which is a component not on the PS4 at all. The actual APU chip on the XBO includes this esram on the silicon.
    It certainly adds another thing that could go wrong, so I imagine yields will always be lower than what Sony are doing simply cause less can go wrong on Sony's chip.
    ahh yeah forgot it was the esram that was the issue. Well I just by middle of next yield will not be even talked about.


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    Picture of Playstation 4 APU die- 20 compute units visible - Chipworks

    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    AMD are fabless they do not manufacture, so no. Manufacturing is carried out by "Global Foundries" or "Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing company"



    Rumour? It's fact. Truthfact even. I think according to Cboat Esram is a burden trying to compensate for Xbone's poor spec DDR3.

    According to Cboat and vgleaks, The GPUs are different, Xbone is using Bonaire GPU with addition of eSram, taking up significant Die area, ramping up heat and manufacturing complexity.

    Fortunately by using GDDR5, the PS4 APU doesn't use anything as alien. So the PS4 yields should be significantly higher, at a much higher performance.
    It doesn't matter who fabs the units AMD have a past and present history of building more CU than required into their chips so they can increase yields. Its nothing new. They tape the chips out, they provide the design. Who punches the make more of these button is irrelevant. Thats like arguing the Beatles didn't write their music because some record press manufactured the records.

    I wont get into cboat or the extent of how true or untrue yields are, but yes it certainly adds complexity to the process no doubt:


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    Last edited by mynd; 11-18-2013 at 08:42.
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    If the Xbox APU is 5 billion transistors, did we ever find out the PS4's transistor count?

    PS4 has little to no competition.

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    There is just as much probability that the extra compute units are totally functional and are just being kept inactive until a firmware activates them.

    Remember, the rumors were that the XBone APU was having yield problems due to the eSRAM. There was never any such rumor about the PS4 APU and in fact, Yoshida-san commented early on how good the yield was for the PS4 APU. When the PS3 was designed, the fab level was 90nm and there were multiple yield problems, so the old saw could be used that two SPU were inactive due to yield (turned out to be untrue anyway, one SPU was for the OS and the other one was reserved for DRM). The PS4 APU is 28nm. Believe it or not, fabrication processes have been greatly improved from 7 years ago.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickice View Post
    If the Xbox APU is 5 billion transistors, did we ever find out the PS4's transistor count?
    5 billion...and one! j/k, I am curious as well...


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    Quote Originally Posted by mickice View Post
    If the Xbox APU is 5 billion transistors, did we ever find out the PS4's transistor count?
    I wouldn't worry about it the majority is for the esram, so its pointless to compare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bligmerk View Post
    There is just as much probability that the extra compute units are totally functional and are just being kept inactive until a firmware activates them.

    Remember, the rumors were that the XBone APU was having yield problems due to the eSRAM. There was never any such rumor about the PS4 APU and in fact, Yoshida-san commented early on how good the yield was for the PS4 APU. When the PS3 was designed, the fab level was 90nm and there were multiple yield problems, so the old saw could be used that two SPU were inactive due to yield (turned out to be untrue anyway, one SPU was for the OS and the other one was reserved for DRM). The PS4 APU is 28nm. Believe it or not, fabrication processes have been greatly improved from 7 years ago.
    So you want to say the same about the XBO one CU's?
    They are their because it increases yields. Its the exact same reason there are 2 not used on the XBO.

    Goossen also reveals that the Xbox One silicon actually contains additional compute units - as we previously speculated. The presence of that redundant hardware (two CUs are disabled on retail consoles) allowed Microsoft to judge the importance of compute power versus clock-speed:

    "Every one of the Xbox One dev kits actually has 14 CUs on the silicon. Two of those CUs are reserved for redundancy in manufacturing, but we could go and do the experiment - if we were actually at 14 CUs what kind of performance benefit would we get versus 12? And if we raised the GPU clock what sort of performance advantage would we get? And we actually saw on the launch titles - we looked at a lot of titles in a lot of depth - we found that going to 14 CUs wasn't as effective as the 6.6 per cent clock upgrade that we did."
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...one-architects
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