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  1. #51
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    Price + E3. That is why there are more on the shelves still. I'm glad my son is going to like the system.




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    Quote Originally Posted by JDizzleNO1 View Post
    uhhh what?

    xbox one: million sold in 13 countries

    ps4: million sold in ONE country

    either way good numbers for both consoles, but what you said really doesn't make much sense to me.....
    Geography quibble but North America isn't one major country, it's three. The United States, Mexico and Canada. Sony only launched Nov. 15th in Canada and the States, reserving the Mexican launch for the Nov. 29 date. But North America has been and remains three major nations.

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    To me, it is a bit of a mystery why MS shipped the day one units with the standard units. It seems like it would have been less complicated and less expensive to ship the day one units, mostly preordered, sell out on those, then ship the standard units. Shipping the standard units with the day one units seems to have dampened the sales rather than supplemented them. It could be that MS PR actually believed in their own PR hype and expected all the day one units to be gone rapidly and there would still be a huge demand for standard units. It also goes up against their delaying launch in 8 countries due to supply limitations, since it is pretty obvious the supply is far exceeding the demand.

    This launch is made different by the staggered launch dates. However, it wouldn't be surprising to see the PS4 have 2 million preorders in the Europe launch. So, we have a launch period rather than just launch days. The PS4 launch period ends in February with the Japan/Asia launch. If MS never launches in Japan, it could be they call their whole console life a launch period.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    Geography quibble but North America isn't one major country, it's three. The United States, Mexico and Canada. Sony only launched Nov. 15th in Canada and the States, reserving the Mexican launch for the Nov. 29 date. But North America has been and remains three major nations.
    Another quibble. He didn't say North America. He said "one" when he should have said "two" when including launch countries......since we are quibbling and all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    No need to remind anyone about Wii numbers....we were there. And don't know what it has to do with anything now, frankly. But what is Sony's PR "spin" on all this again?
    Lessons of the past and all that is what Wii has to do with anything now. It's not any one point of spin, it's all spin and it's been spin, if we define spin as manipulating markets to achieve the most positive effect on public perception. The spinning starts when they decide how many consoles they're going to build for launch, how many they'll allow for preorders, how many they'll allocate for day-one buyers that are not allowed to be reallocated to launch day preorders, how many they'll hold back to replenish shelf stock in a week or two instead of months.

    Sony carefully targeted their first launch into their weakest large markets a week ahead of the competition. That was sharp PR. They had a lot of announcement and E3 momentum, a lot of preorders, they knew they'd sell well at launch in those two national markets and establish an early beachhead where before they'd been greater struggle. They knew pretty much no matter what happened they'd be able to post big numbers in hard markets for them last generation. They haven't launched in Japan because the console market in Japan is depressed. They say it's because there aren't enough games at launch that will appeal to Japanese gamers. Japanese console gamers have been drifting to Western-style games for some time, and Japanese developers have for years been trying to adopt a more Western approach to games development, with a fair amount of success. There are no Japanese games ready because Sony didn't push Japanese games for an early launch because they know the console market is depressed and Japanese games or no they'd perform relatively poorly in their home market. And coming in last behind international markets in your home market looks pretty bad. Not insurmountable, but why smudge your launches if you don't have to?

    MS is spinning by launching into many large markets all at once. For one, a solid launch in that many markets puts to bed the old game industry assumption that the Xbox division can't pull off a big international rollout. For two, they know they got tripped up pushing a DRM scheme the public rejected. And not just the so-called gaming public. A middle-aged, non-gaming and tech unsophisticated parent I spoke with recently was aware of both the original Xbox One policies and MS rescinding those policies and it pushed her Christmas buying decision for her son to PS4. That story got out all over the place and it wasn't pretty. It was a risk assessment an MS determined it was worth the risk if it didn't tank the console. Undoubtedly MS knew they might get their DRM plans shoved right down their throats and they'd have to backpedal, so they had contingency plans. A part of those plans was first launching in enough markets to mitigate lower launch sales numbers than they expected Sony to show for their first launch. Lower launch sales numbers based on several factors, both especially the DRM issue and also promoting the console as home entertainment device that play games rather than games device that also does home entertainment. They knew that might go like crazy over the long haul but it wasn't go to play well with core gamers, who are the sort of people who preorder or buy consoles at launch. And they were aware that Xbox 360 allegiance, though strong, might not be enough to overcome some pretty important issues to core gamers. So they spun their launch.

    You just don't know upfront because there's so much noise, some intentional, targeted noise to try and deafen the public to anything but a single message, some just static from confusing and contradictory information. Console launches are industry news, not hard news, but there's a great hard new analog to early reporting versus later, better considered and researched report. Go read the early reports in the weeks and months after the 9/11 attacks on the United States, particularly the World Trade Center attacks. Then go read William Langewiesche's work for The Atlantic -- later published as book -- on the same subject close to a year after the event. It's night and day. In fact it was so night and day, so different a story, compared to slapdash early reporting, Langewiesche was accused of bias, muckraking and outright fabrication -- although his reporting was by far the most accurate, well-researched and appropriately sourced of any reporting to date at the time he published.

    On a much smaller scale of far, far less human gravity, so goes these console launches. It takes quite some time to find out what's really happening, to separate corporate PR machinations from the realities of market performance. The gaming press isn't much known for doing deep stories, but even if they were, they couldn't run them right now, or even a couple months from now, and have anything substantive enough they should feel comfortable signing their names on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Another quibble. He didn't say North America. He said "one" when he should have said "two" when including launch countries......since we are quibbling and all.
    Pretty well implied in his post was that he took "North American launch" to mean "American launch" and that's how he came to calling it a million units in just one country.

    At any rate, I'm not trying to start an argument over any of this present launch reporting. Because at present there's nothing useful enough as market data upon which to found any sort of argument.
    Last edited by sanfordmay; 11-23-2013 at 16:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Ok.....apples to apples. You can pick up an X1 this morning here in Georgia, in Manhatten, in Beverly Hills.....yeah, pretty much everywhere. For every single X1 sitting on the shelf right now that is at least one consumer who is passing it by and waiting for the PS4.
    In Atlanta I count 9 Target stores that are in stock via their website, likewise I count no Target stores that have PS4 in stock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    Lessons of the past and all that is what Wii has to do with anything now. It's not any one point of spin, it's all spin and it's been spin, if we define spin as manipulating markets to achieve the most positive effect on public perception. The spinning starts when they decide how many consoles they're going to build for launch, how many they'll allow for preorders, how many they'll allocate for day-one buyers that are not allowed to be reallocated to launch day preorders, how many they'll hold back to replenish shelf stock in a week or two instead of months.

    Sony carefully targeted their first launch into their weakest large markets a week ahead of the competition. That was sharp PR. They had a lot of announcement and E3 momentum, a lot of preorders, they knew they'd sell well at launch in those two national markets and establish an early beachhead where before they'd been greater struggle. They knew pretty much no matter what happened they'd be able to post big numbers in hard markets for them last generation. They haven't launched in Japan because the console market in Japan is depressed. They say it's because there aren't enough games at launch that will appeal to Japanese gamers. Japanese console gamers have been drifting to Western-style games for some time, and Japanese developers have for years been trying to adopt a more Western approach to games development, with a fair amount of success. There are no Japanese games ready because Sony didn't push Japanese games for an early launch because they know the console market is depressed and Japanese games or no they'd perform relatively poorly in their home market. And coming in last behind international markets in your home market looks pretty bad. Not insurmountable, but why smudge your launches if you don't have to?

    MS is spinning by launching into many large markets all at once. For one, a solid launch in that many markets puts to bed the old game industry assumption that the Xbox division can't pull off a big international rollout. For two, they know they got tripped up pushing a DRM scheme the public rejected. And not just the so-called gaming public. A middle-aged, non-gaming and tech unsophisticated parent I spoke with recently was aware of both the original Xbox One policies and MS rescinding those policies and it pushed her Christmas buying decision for her son to PS4. That story got out all over the place and it wasn't pretty. It was a risk assessment an MS determined it was worth the risk if it didn't tank the console. Undoubtedly MS knew they might get their DRM plans shoved right down their throats and they'd have to backpedal, so they had contingency plans. A part of those plans was first launching in enough markets to mitigate lower launch sales numbers than they expected Sony to show for their first launch. Lower launch sales numbers based on several factors, both especially the DRM issue and also promoting the console as home entertainment device that play games rather than games device that also does home entertainment. They knew that might go like crazy over the long haul but it wasn't go to play well with core gamers, who are the sort of people who preorder or buy consoles at launch. And they were aware that Xbox 360 allegiance, though strong, might not be enough to overcome some pretty important issues to core gamers. So they spun their launch.

    You just don't know upfront because there's so much noise, some intentional, targeted noise to try and deafen the public to anything but a single message, some just static from confusing and contradictory information. Console launches are industry news, not hard news, but there's a great hard new analog to early reporting versus later, better considered and researched report. Go read the early reports in the weeks and months after the 9/11 attacks on the United States, particularly the World Trade Center attacks. Then go read William Langewiesche's work for The Atlantic -- later published as book -- on the same subject close to a year after the event. It's night and day. In fact it was so night and day, so different a story, compared to slapdash early reporting, Langewiesche was accused of bias, muckraking and outright fabrication -- although his reporting was by far the most accurate, well-researched and appropriately sourced of any reporting to date at the time he published.

    On a much smaller scale of far, far less human gravity, so goes these console launches. It takes quite some time to find out what's really happening, to separate corporate PR machinations from the realities of market performance. The gaming press isn't much known for doing deep stories, but even if they were, they couldn't run them right now, or even a couple months from now, and have anything substantive enough they should feel comfortable signing their names on it.
    Dude....that is a wall of text. Bottom line.....Sony built on their PR advantage and most importantly, the price advantage. These companies can strategize all they want just like they have every generation, but it comes down to supply and demand which should dictate price. I'm sure these companies try their best to maximize their strategies to come off as successful. Sometimes that works...other times it doesn't. But these plans have been laid out for everyone to see for some time. This wasn't some ninth inning shenanigans that was masterminded by Sony's PR crew which is why I'm not buying that this is all "spin" somehow.

    edit: Or maybe I'm not following your point.....you're kinda all over the place dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Price + E3. That is why there are more on the shelves still.
    What F34R said.
    Last edited by Christopher; 11-23-2013 at 17:07.
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    E3?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    E3?
    Yeah....I don't think MS ever fully recovered from that.
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    oh right, i was thinking more along the lines of DRM but i guess it's the same thing.

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    Well if Sony sells more then so be it. I'm so sick of the obsession with console sales that I can't wait until people move on from the subject. The PS2 blew away Xbox sales and yet I couldn't have been happier.

    If there is less people now with Xbox One on Live then in the 360 era, that's fine by me. I kinda miss the intimacy of the smaller fanbase back in the day. Once the 360 came out, Xbox Live exploded with the annoying kids under 12 crowd. Made me stop joining or hosting public matches.....friends only. It was mostly adults on Live in the Xbox days. Boy was that nice!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    Well if Sony sells more then so be it. I'm so sick of the obsession with console sales that I can't wait until people move on from the subject. The PS2 blew away Xbox sales and yet I couldn't have been happier.
    lol...you don't have to wait.

    If there is less people now with Xbox One on Live then in the 360 era, that's fine by me. I kinda miss the intimacy of the smaller fanbase back in the day. Once the 360 came out, Xbox Live exploded with the annoying kids under 12 crowd. Made me stop joining or hosting public matches.....friends only. It was mostly adults on Live in the Xbox days. Boy was that nice!
    That's the spirit!
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    Geography quibble but North America isn't one major country, it's three. The United States, Mexico and Canada. Sony only launched Nov. 15th in Canada and the States, reserving the Mexican launch for the Nov. 29 date. But North America has been and remains three major nations.
    right i know that, i didn't take into account mexico and canada, which they released systems for? if they did then i was quite naive lol



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    Quote Originally Posted by JDizzleNO1 View Post
    right i know that, i didn't take into account mexico and canada, which they released systems for? if they did then i was quite naive lol
    I think it was Canada and the US. I made the mistake of just saying US as well. So 2 countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JDizzleNO1 View Post
    right i know that, i didn't take into account mexico and canada, which they released systems for? if they did then i was quite naive lol
    Not Mexico. Mexico is North America but won't launch until Nov. 29.

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    I've been checking eBay as I have a Day One Edition for sale and the prices are terrible. A lot of these people are going to end up breaking even or even losing a few bucks after shipping, eBay and Paypal fees.
    I don't need no stinkin' signature!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Dude....that is a wall of text. Bottom line.....Sony built on their PR advantage and most importantly, the price advantage. These companies can strategize all they want just like they have every generation, but it comes down to supply and demand which should dictate price. I'm sure these companies try their best to maximize their strategies to come off as successful. Sometimes that works...other times it doesn't. But these plans have been laid out for everyone to see for some time. This wasn't some ninth inning shenanigans that was masterminded by Sony's PR crew which is why I'm not buying that this is all "spin" somehow.

    edit: Or maybe I'm not following your point.....you're kinda all over the place dude.



    What F34R said.
    It's always all spin. I think I pretty clearly laid out how companies engineer product launches to meet or exceed competitors' launches in public perception. Nintendo could have done it with WiiU but based upon Wii sales -- there's that relevance thing -- they didn't believe they had competitors. Similar to what Sega did to them with the Genesis. Nintendo has a long history of denying they have bona fide competition.

    I also think that although you're not a Sony fanboy or shill, that you're not so blind or ignorant or personally invested to participate as a full-blown combatant in a war over game consoles, you're a PlayStation true believer. There's almost no way I'll convince a true believer that the process is engineered, it's gamed. Sony PR and marketing did an outstanding job gaming this one, but it's still gamed. As was Microsoft's launch.

    I'm not sure what's all over the map. I covered Sony's launch spin and Microsoft's launch spin and then gave a fair example of how it takes a long time to discover the real story and the real story is often vastly different from what seems blatantly obvious in the interval right around the event.

    Speaking of events, in the event, let's just agree to disagree.

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    Anyone have an idea of how much 360 and PS3 sold in the first 24 hours?

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    If I can remember correctly, the 360, did well.. 326,000 in two weeks of launch.




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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    It's always all spin. I think I pretty clearly laid out how companies engineer product launches to meet or exceed competitors' launches in public perception. Nintendo could have done it with WiiU but based upon Wii sales -- there's that relevance thing -- they didn't believe they had competitors. Similar to what Sega did to them with the Genesis. Nintendo has a long history of denying they have bona fide competition.

    I also think that although you're not a Sony fanboy or shill, that you're not so blind or ignorant or personally invested to participate as a full-blown combatant in a war over game consoles, you're a PlayStation true believer. There's almost no way I'll convince a true believer that the process is engineered, it's gamed. Sony PR and marketing did an outstanding job gaming this one, but it's still gamed. As was Microsoft's launch.
    Convince me? Convince me of what? That your opinion of all this is absolute gospel truth? Agreed. You're going to have to work harder, but probably a futile effort on your part. And not because you think I'm a "true believer" or whatever bull$#@!. I don't make it a habit of just buying into some guys take on stuff....just cuz he says so.

    I'm not sure what's all over the map. I covered Sony's launch spin and Microsoft's launch spin and then gave a fair example of how it takes a long time to discover the real story and the real story is often vastly different from what seems blatantly obvious in the interval right around the event.
    From Wii to Japan to some middle-aged dude to the World Trade Center.....how were you not all over the place?

    Speaking of events, in the event, let's just agree to disagree.
    lol.....now you want to agree to disagree.
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    Not surprising. If I was rich, or didn't need track tires, I'd have an xbone too.

    Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

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    I really want an Xbox too. But I wanted a PS4 more and my car tires went essentially bald so my wallet is taking a pounding haha.
    "Bigfoot is blurry, that is the problem...it is not the photographers fault...Bigfoot is blurry and that is extra scary to me because there is an extra large out-of-focus creature roaming the countryside....Run he's fuzzy, get out of here" ~ Mitch Hedburg, RIP you crazy fool

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    Quote Originally Posted by WretchedSoul21 View Post
    I really want an Xbox too. But I wanted a PS4 more and my car tires went essentially bald so my wallet is taking a pounding haha.
    I'm waiting until Kinect is removed or MS eats the $100 and lowers the price. No doubt I'll get an X1 at some point though.
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    [QUOTE=Christopher;6252721]
    From Wii to Japan to some middle-aged dude to the World Trade Center.....how were you not all over the place?
    Relevance of Wii console market position last gen in highlighting hazards of early on predicting console market performance this gen, to Sony's strategy for launching, or rather not launching, PS4 in their home market, to anecdotal non-gaming public awareness of original Xbox One DRM policies, to a prime example of how reported information on any event often drastically changes when enough time has passed to filter background static and PR noise, identify inherent bias, and also properly research the event -- waiting for enough valid data to be known; "Dewey Defeats Truman," if you know what I mean.


    lol.....now you want to agree to disagree.
    Yeah, that's the considerate and civil way to terminate this debate as ultimately fruitless for both parties. Another way is to flatly state you don't know what you're talking about and I do. Inconsiderate, but accurate. I did this stuff for more than a decade. Engineered public impression of whatever my employer and/or clients got up to that they wanted perceived by certain parties in a positive way. (Some of them were true believers, too, in that they thought what they were doing was right and good. It usually wasn't, but they believed with all their hearts in the decency and honor of their endeavors. They're the most difficult sorts of clients because at some point you're going to have to present information in a form tantamount to lying and they don't want you to lie to people but they don't understand that you have to lie because what they believe is wrong.)

    I know exactly what these people do because I was one of them and I did the same damn thing day in and day out for a damn long time. I'd take your word on the overall methodology applied in developing software systems for .NET because I don't know the first thing about .NET save for what it is, and that only vaguely. So I don't know why you're still on me over this when I suggested we chalk it down to discrete opinions.

    By the way, that's a common hallmark of a true believer. Carrying a debate past the point the other party offers to accept the elements in contention as merely differences of opinion.

    I don't use "agree to disagree" as a succinct euphemism for "I'm right and you're wrong but you're not worth my time so I'll let you go ahead and believe your petty delusions." I mean it literally. We don't agree and I'm fine with that. Yet you throw what amounts to an olive branch back in my face. Another trait of a true believer. That's not quite QED but it's close enough for me.

    For the record, you may as well get used to this notion: The Xbox One DRM restrictions? Sony had planned on doing the same thing. They took it out but they left its fingerprints all over the PS4.
    Last edited by sanfordmay; 11-23-2013 at 21:26.

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