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  1. #26
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    Everyone, keep your heads cool and your opinions well mannered. Don't target other members or act hostile, otherwise this thread may be locked. Politics and religion topics are already skating on thin ice with the forum rules.
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  2. #27
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    While I know it's 'time to change' the Obama administration's idea of trying new things just seems to extend a bit to far.
    The new guy arrives, wishes Jews happy Hanukkah and we are out there giving them the benefit of the doubt suddenly. I'm not convinced that the Ayatollah Khomeini and his clerics are just magically nice guys! Did they swap out their blacks for white whites?
    NO!!!

    They have a huge desert and access to coast lines... let them setup a huge SOLAR grid and invest in Algae Fuels... while I agree the PEOPLE OF IRAN could benefit from Nuclear power, one good plant, the GOVERNMENT OF IRAN is not worthy of it's power as they will use it nefariously.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    Yes... your english isn't the best, but I won't hold it against you.

    As for what you said? Couldn't fully understand, but I kinda got an idea. I suggest using Bing translator to type in turkish and translate to english and see if your points come out articulated better. Worth a try I guess.

    As for Iran? I wouldn't really care if they had nukes if I didn't think they would use them or give them to somebody that would. When they are preaching for jews to be wiped off the face of the earth, that's a huge problem. Name another country that is constantly encouraging the destruction and killing of another country or it's people? The only one I can think of that kinda comes close is North Korea....and even then....... they say only if the south provokes them. Iran? Jews mere existence is their justification for doing so.

    As for world police? Well actually that was the basic purpose of the United Nations and look where that's got us? They are a toothless debate club that really never seems to have a backbone to stop anything. They have allowed countless genocides to occur during it's existence, despite pledging "never again" about genocide when they were formed. This is a organization that was formed as a result of genocide, yet other than Kosovo.... just sits back and let's it happen time after time.

    So when you have a body that can agree on little (China and Russia usually being the biggest obstructionists there), somebody has to step up and be the one that maintains some type of order. If not the USA, then who? The only other world powers big enough to do it is Russia and China. Russia has been eroding away it's freedoms and rights of it's citizens for years now. China is still a one party state, depriving it's citizens of basic rights as simple as free speech and is now starting trouble with it's neighbors in the China Sea.

    So either you want a world of order or you want a world of disorder. If you want a world of order and freedom, for the time being the USA is the best option to enforce that. If you think another country is better capable of effectively doing so then name it. I'm all ears.

    Anyways.... for the most part, we don't agree with each other. But I will say thank you for posting that post. Cuz your last drive-by post of simply calling me sick without explaining why and was kinda pointless. At least I have some little idea of why you think I am sick, even though due to your limited English skills, you weren't able to fully articulate it.
    1-Thanks for your try to understand my limited english
    2- I apologise for calling you "sick" , that was a wrong term but I will try to explain why I used that word for you.
    Now I am going to tell you 2 things first why USA meddling Middle East THAT MUCH is wrong, 2 why I called you like that.

    Like you said , I generally disagree with you almost at every topic, I stated the reasons time by time, yet it seems you couldn't catch it. When it comes to gaming you always talk like a guy in gaming bussiness, I rarely see your enjoyment from an upcoming new game, instead you usually use "success" which comes with sale figures, the most uniteresting part of gaming world, at least for a gamer. I never , never can understand this type of logic hence I usually don't like this kind of posts.

    Now I see your post about middle east, which is so wrong as a avarage citizen. especially your second post is a post almost like a world leader, not a human who has a kind heart but a politician who NEEDS to give big decisions, even sometimes sending poor soldiers to their own death or killing poor citizens for his own good. Which again I hate most.

    I am sick of the current stiations which your country come as a judge that wish to shapes. Middle East is dead already , thanks to USA, and now you ask them to $#@! with Iran. Do you ever for once think if this will be any good to those people? Or do you even care what Iranian people is happy with you come into picture? Do you see them as your enemy? Or all middle east? Are they humans for you ? Or some people who needed to be killed if they do some big mistakes.


    For once you should close your eyes and try to feel how those people feel, as a human, and you should ask some questions "why do they hate us that much?" don't go too much back, just think from 9/11 to today. I am sure you remember those days like today.
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  4. #29
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  5. #30
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    I don't know why people are even associating these reactors with nuclear bombs anyways. You don't need reactor byproducts and leftovers to create nuclear weapons. Something as basic as a calutron can accomplish this. The bomb used to flatten Hiroshima was made with this relatively old and basic technology.

    The only reason Iran would need a reactor is to gain plutonium, which can be used to create thermonuclear weapons. These are stronger than typical uranium-based atomic weapons by an order of magnitude because the fusion process produces a higher yield by converting more mass. But it seems a hell of a lot easier to me to just operate a secret facility to refine uranium and produce several bombs, rather than use reactor leftovers to create higher tier weaponry. It avoids several issues... like the authenticity of the reactors being a worry up for global debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    They have a huge desert and access to coast lines... let them setup a huge SOLAR grid and invest in Algae Fuels... while I agree the PEOPLE OF IRAN could benefit from Nuclear power, one good plant, the GOVERNMENT OF IRAN is not worthy of it's power as they will use it nefariously.
    That's a fair solution, but there's a better one: Thorium. Not only is it 4 times more common than uranium and 200 times as potent, but its byproduct is not plutonium, thus it's fuel rods cannot be recycled to create nuclear weapons of any capacity. The waste will also degrade after decades, rather than many, many millennia. The technology to literally only a couple years away (tests of feasibility have already proven it successful). It is the future of energy for our species.

    If Iran is really this keen on having nuclear energy but not erasing Israel off the map, then perhaps they should wait a little bit longer. Or maybe we can trust them until they can make the switch to thorium reactors.
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  6. #31
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    At the end of the day it is all paranoia there is no way that Iran would stand up to the might of America I should imagine there is lots of US government spies trying to get the detonation codes for these nukes.
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  7. #32
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    The U.S gove are pure evil and always was, and it is the U.S people that suffer
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  8. #33
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    I don't see the fuss about who has and who hasn't got nuclear weapons anyway.. Whichever state launched a nuclear attack would be wiped off the face if the earth within hours with a retaliatory strike. Here in the UK we have one of the smallest stockpiles out of all the declared nuclear states but its still enough to wipe about 3/4 of the human population off the face of the planet.. There are far more serious threats to the human race than nuclear weapons.. It's all smoke and mirrors.. Anyone who thinks these agreements are anything other than a way of getting Iran's massive oil reserves flowing out into the rest of the world needs to have a word with themselves..

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by claud3 View Post
    The U.S gove are pure evil and always was, and it is the U.S people that suffer
    The "US people" don't know what suffering is, frankly. Some of our poor would be considered rich in other countries.
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  11. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    The "US people" don't know what suffering is, frankly. Some of our poor would be considered rich in other countries.
    Same here.. People moan about being skint and how bad their lot is while going on holiday, driving about everywhere and sitting in front of widescreen TV's at the same time..

  12. #36
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    I probably don't know enough about foreign affairs, but here's what I have observed and my tiny 01 cents:

    The U.S. "nuked" Japan a long time ago, right? So we saw the power of nuclear weapons, right? Okay, a huge city filled with children, women, and men was destroyed and still is having effects in Japan.

    Okay, here's my question to all the people in this thread rooting for Iran to have nuclear freedom: What if Iran turned on your country and decided to "nuke" it? What would you say about the U.S. and NATO trying to stop Iran then?

    Nuclear weapons are no joke, I may not be a science and chemistry expert, but I saw the pictures and read about Hiroshima. I wouldn't want that to happen to ANYONE nor ANY country.

    I know each and every country has its own freedoms and rights, but what about the countries who get attacked? If Iran turned and bombed the U.S. TODAY, where are OUR rights? Yes, we do have the right to defend ourselves and counterattack, but "preventative care" is best.

    No one may reply to this, but that's my 01 cents on the matter.

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  13. #37
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    2 cities. They dropped 2 bombs. Hiroshima and Nagasaki

  14. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    2 cities. They dropped 2 bombs. Hiroshima and Nagasaki
    Thank you, but wasn't Hiroshima the bigger city? Any way, you get the point.

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  15. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    The U.S. "nuked" Japan a long time ago, right? So we saw the power of nuclear weapons, right? Okay, a huge city filled with children, women, and men was destroyed and still is having effects in Japan.
    Just a quick clarification: It's actually not. Here's Hiroshima today, and Nagaski is in a similar state. Both bombs were detonated high above the city, and the intense heat of the fireball pulled up the nuclear fallout and dispersed it over a massive area high in the stratosphere. Most of the radioactive particles decayed in the following weeks, long before they ever reached the ground.

    There would have only been lasting effects if it was detonated upon impact with the Earth, as it would have pulled in debris and particles which would have become radioactive. These particles would have persisted for decades, harming anyone breathing them in. The area would still be mostly unlivable if that had been the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    I know each and every country has its own freedoms and rights, but what about the countries who get attacked? If Iran turned and bombed the U.S. TODAY, where are OUR rights? Yes, we do have the right to defend ourselves and counterattack, but "preventative care" is best.
    Have you ever heard of MAD?

    In summary, it is essentially: "If you shoot me, you'll get shot too. And you don't want to die, so don't shoot me." It arose during the Cold War between the USA and USSR, and played as a crux for why actual war never took place between the two nations. If one attacked the other with nuclear weapons, then they would be hit with nuclear weapons, and no victor would come from the scenario. It does not always apply for powerful weapons though, and is exactly why North Korea will bark loud but never bite.

    Iran is very much in a similar scenario, though the traits are different. If Iran utilizes nuclear weapons on Israel, they will be damning themselves to oblivion. Their military and Government would be dismantled quickly and without mercy, if not outright nuked right back. There is no scenario where they win, and I hope common sense is a factor in their decisions made.

    Regardless, they don't even need nuclear reactors to create nuclear weapons. All we can hope for is that we treat them with some respect, and hope honest cooperation will maintain healthy relations with other countries and people. Attempting to meddle and intervene with what they do is not a good approach whatsoever.
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  16. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    Just a quick clarification: It's actually not. Here's Hiroshima today, and Nagaski is in a similar state. Both bombs were detonated high above the city, and the intense heat of the fireball pulled up the nuclear fallout and dispersed it over a massive area high in the stratosphere. Most of the radioactive particles decayed in the following weeks, long before they ever reached the ground.

    There would have only been lasting effects if it was detonated upon impact with the Earth, as it would have pulled in debris and particles which would have become radioactive. These particles would have persisted for decades, harming anyone breathing them in. The area would still be mostly unlivable if that had been the case.
    However, studies are ongoing in Nagaski and Hiroshima. What if the radiation DID sink into the ground and both cities ARE really radioactive?

    Crazy $#@!, isn't it?

    Have you ever heard of MAD?

    In summary, it is essentially: "If you shoot me, you'll get shot too. And you don't want to die, so don't shoot me." It arose during the Cold War between the USA and USSR, and played as a crux for why actual war never took place between the two nations. If one attacked the other with nuclear weapons, then they would be hit with nuclear weapons, and no victor would come from the scenario. It does not always apply for powerful weapons though, and is exactly why North Korea will bark loud but never bite.

    Iran is very much in a similar scenario, though the traits are different. If Iran utilizes nuclear weapons on Israel, they will be damning themselves to oblivion. Their military and Government would be dismantled quickly and without mercy, if not outright nuked right back. There is no scenario where they win, and I hope common sense is a factor in their decisions made.

    Regardless, they don't even need nuclear reactors to create nuclear weapons. All we can hope for is that we treat them with some respect, and hope honest cooperation will maintain healthy relations with other countries and people. Attempting to meddle and intervene with what they do is not a good approach whatsoever.
    What if NATO and the world could prevent "MAD"? What if no country had nuclear weapons or weapons of mass destruction?

    Prevention > Counter attack.

    I'm not trying to sound like an asshole, but what gives them the $#@!ing right to produce weapons that could not only wipe out countries, but damage or destroy the world?

    Countries and people have rights, but it's not a right to impede on others rights and liberties and SAFETY.

    I know the U.S. and Great Britain and NATO have done some bad things like soldiers raping afghan and Iraqi women and infringing on their rights, but no country is without flaws.

    When we're talking "nukes", we're talking about damaging or destroying the whole $#@!ing WORLD.

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  17. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    However, studies are ongoing in Nagaski and Hiroshima. What if the radiation DID sink into the ground and both cities ARE really radioactive?
    Then I would be wondering how the radiation teleported into the ground, and why it was still active after all these years.

    When a nuclear bomb detonates, it releases a lot of energy. Most of it is is heat and phonon (kinetic energy), but some of it is also electromagnetic waves. This is radiation, and it spreads out at different wavelengths. Some of these wavelengths interact with the delicate strands of DNA, especially any cells in the middle of mitosis. Some of these cells may be altered in a way that they don't die off after splitting, or they produce too quickly. This is where you get the first wave of people with cancer, usually it being people caught in visible sight or close proximity of the blast. The radiation emits outward and hits them. This burst happens in a billionth of a second after detonation, then it's over.

    The second wave of induced cancer by nuclear blasts is breathing radioactive particles, or being near concentrated fallout. This are what you're referring to. As I stated, air bursts leave very little fallout on the surface beneath the detonation. It's rapidly sucked up into the atmosphere and distributed over hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of square miles, making the effect largely negligible.

    There is no residual fallout in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It doesn't exist. The millions of healthy people in both cities can show you that. You can stand under where the bombs detonated with a geiger counter to prove it. You'll be getting more harmful radiation from the Sun than you would the bombs detonated decades ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    Prevention > Counter attack.
    What if this prevention causes the attack? What if cooperating with the country would have proven more successful and safe? History has shown repeatedly that this is entirely possible.

    If you still disagree, then what do you propose be done to the nation of Iran without making things worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    Countries and people have rights, but it's not a right to impede on others rights and liberties and SAFETY.
    Ehh. Now you're arguing with rights over other rights. "We have the right to withhold your rights because we deem it our right." It makes for little productive discussion.
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  18. #42
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    Yeah, it's Chernobyl that's still effed up I believe. Japan issue is the reactors that are still leaking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MacP View Post
    At the end of the day it is all paranoia there is no way that Iran would stand up to the might of America I should imagine there is lots of US government spies trying to get the detonation codes for these nukes.
    Only a fool would underestimate his enemies. Art of War 101.

    Just look at Neville Chamberlain.
    Last edited by reasonable_doubt; 11-27-2013 at 09:16.

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    The problem the west has with Iran having a nuclear program at all is that it forces the west to actually respect Iran as an equal partner and treat Iran as it would want to be treated. Just look at how the United States deals with Russia, China and the other nuclear powers. It's a far more cordial relationship than Iran, Iraq and other nations who have/had nuclear programs. It's been proven that the only way to get equal treatment is to not give in or give up on having a nuclear program.

  21. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post
    There is no residual fallout in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. It doesn't exist. The millions of healthy people in both cities can show you that. You can stand under where the bombs detonated with a geiger counter to prove it. You'll be getting more harmful radiation from the Sun than you would the bombs detonated decades ago.
    "Every survivor of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has a similar story. But while their individual testimonies are moving, perhaps the most important tale told by these men and women -- more than 40 percent of the survivors remain alive -- has been collective. It is how they have lived, and how they die. For more than six decades, their medical histories have provided the authoritative source for how scientists understand the effects of radiation on the human body."


    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/04...pagewanted=all

    Now Rapture, why 6 decades? If the attack is still not effecting Japan, why does this source state "6 decades"?

    Rapture, what would you say if I found a source that showed people living in Nagasaki and Hiroshima get sicker faster than people living in the northern parts of Japan? Diseases like cancer, high blood pressure, etc.

    What if this prevention causes the attack? What if cooperating with the country would have proven more successful and safe? History has shown repeatedly that this is entirely possible.

    If you still disagree, then what do you propose be done to the nation of Iran without making things worse?
    That doesn't make any sense. If it's prevented, it's prevented. An attack cannot occur. Another type of attack can occur, but if you prevent both sides from having nukes, then neither side nukes one another.

    I actually agree with what NATO, the U.S., and Great Britain are doing right now. I applaud them. Negotiate with them, only go to war if you absolutely have to. And YES, this is worth going to war about. We're talking about the WHOLE $#@!ING WORLD here.

    Ehh. Now you're arguing with rights over other rights. "We have the right to withhold your rights because we deem it our right." It makes for little productive discussion.
    Nope, that is not what I said. It's not withholding rights, but defending YOUR rights and OTHERS' rights who cannot defend themselves. Do you think Japan is in favor of Iran or ANYONE having nukes or the potential to create nuclear weapons?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rapture View Post

    Have you ever heard of MAD?

    In summary, it is essentially: "If you shoot me, you'll get shot too. And you don't want to die, so don't shoot me." It arose during the Cold War between the USA and USSR, and played as a crux for why actual war never took place between the two nations. If one attacked the other with nuclear weapons, then they would be hit with nuclear weapons, and no victor would come from the scenario. It does not always apply for powerful weapons though, and is exactly why North Korea will bark loud but never bite.

    Iran is very much in a similar scenario, though the traits are different. If Iran utilizes nuclear weapons on Israel, they will be damning themselves to oblivion. Their military and Government would be dismantled quickly and without mercy, if not outright nuked right back. There is no scenario where they win, and I hope common sense is a factor in their decisions made.
    The problem is, MAD relies on the idea that both sides care about not dying, yet too many people in this world seem to welcome death for a reward in an afterlife. It also relies on the idea that an attack would come directly from a state, and not a proxy. Iran is still a theocracy, and history has shown time and time again the atrocities that happen when the state and its religion are one and the same. Yet, we seem willing to forget those lessons because we like to judge others based on the primarily Western ideal of liberty, an ideal that others clearly do not share.

    For the record, I have no idea what the best course of action is. I consider myself 'liberal', but I do feel a sense of unease at how others of a similar mindset are so easily willing to put their lives into the hands of others, others who are quite clearly insane. I look at the people who would be in charge of nuclear weapons in Iran, and can't help but feel like it could be a fatal mistake.

    I just hope, as James Madison intended, that those who represent us are wise enough to make the right decisions on this, whatever they may be. Although I can't say that fills me with confidence.

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