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  1. #1
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    XBONE causes TV 'frame judder' in UK when using HDMI passthrough..

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...e-judder-in-uk

    Way to go.. I'm fussy with my TV quality, that would bug the $#@! out of me..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...e-judder-in-uk

    Way to go.. I'm fussy with my TV quality, that would bug the $#@! out of me..
    Wow, Europe is so backwards, even little old NZ does 60hz HDTV.
    Of course if you signal is 50hz, I guess you could always cap the XBO to 50hz.
    Last edited by mynd; 11-25-2013 at 22:14.

  3. #3
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    Says in that article that isn't all that straightforward.. Could something like that be patched in?

    Great win against Ireland yesterday, BTW..

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    Wait... how does this work? Are the tv's 50hz?? So if the Xbox One is outputting 60hz with gaming, how doesn't that cause judder?

    I'm confused lol.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Wait... how does this work? Are the tv's 50hz?? So if the Xbox One is outputting 60hz with gaming, how doesn't that cause judder?

    I'm confused lol.

    HDTV are 60Hz but in PAL regions have 50Hz modes

  6. #6
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    No, it's the broadcasts that are 50hz.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    50Hz Sky to 60Hz TV looks OK.
    I'm sure my TV is set to 60hz, I'm going to check.

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    A really switched on cookie at avforums predicted this issue before the X1 was released.

    http://www.avforums.com/threads/xbox...oblem.1831965/

    Around the world there is two main standards for broadcast tv 50fps and 60fps.

    The movie industry had always been 24fps


    In 50hz countries 24fps films would be sped up to 25fps then doubled to 50


    This would give us nice judder free playback


    However 60fps material originating mainly from US TV shows that didn't use 24fps had to be converted in one of a couple of ways to work on 50fps TV sets. Mostly this was done by duplicating a few frames creating a judder or ghosting effect you have probably noticed on American material (including native 60fps HD)


    Now Americans have had a similar problem for a lot longer with 24fps material that we never had, 24fps into 30 then doubled to provide 60
    This gave them the same judder on movies that we have on tv programmes that basically make it all look like ass!


    America have fixed their 24fps problem now by having 24fps and 60fps switching sets


    UK have 24, 50 and 60fps switching sets


    Unfortunately you CANNOT show two or three of these framerates from different sources on screen all at once. Only a native 600hz tv with a none existent 600hz hdmi spec could do that!
    (600 is the lowest number divisible by 24, 50 and 60)


    With 24fps films on a 60hz broadcast Americans can use something called cadence detection to get back to native 24fps


    So that's Americans sorted...


    So back to 50hz territories (most of the world)


    You can't 50fps into 60fps by duplicating frames without judder, and you can't get 24fps out of 50fps mangled into 60fps (you can't even do 25 slowed down to 24 as you'd get audio problems)


    So all in all sky sports 50fps, sky movies 25fps and everything else could end up looking a pigs ear


    So here is our problem


    How does the X1 handle 24 and 50fps content on a 60fps desktop


    The only solution I can see other than the horrible judder is to use something called "intelligent frame creation" which makes everything look like a soap opera and even that wouldn't fix 24fps on a 50fps broadcast


    So unfortunately snap and hdmi input might be a bit useless outside of 60hz territories unless you don't really give a damn!


    So if you see AVF members whining on day one, now you know why!

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Wait... how does this work? Are the tv's 50hz?? So if the Xbox One is outputting 60hz with gaming, how doesn't that cause judder?

    I'm confused lol.
    PAl is 25fps, any output means you will "double" a frame here and there (1 every 5 frames).

    So 30 frames will look like this

    Frames: 1,2,3,4,5,5,6,7,8,9,10,10,11,12,13,14,15,15,16,17, 18,19,20,20,21,22,23,24,25,25

    Ive experienced back in the day, it is off putting mainly when they pan the screen, its never smooth pan.
    NZ is also 50fps, although all our TV's out put 60hz.
    I imagine, we have some circuitry in the receivers to decode it correctly dunno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    I'm sure my TV is set to 60hz, I'm going to check.
    Watching Sky Mine says when I press the info button "1920 x 1080 50i"
    ITs a Samsung.
    Last edited by keefy; 11-25-2013 at 22:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Mine says when I press the info button "1080i 50Hz"
    Mines even less helpful, it says 1080i.

    We only just went digital in NZ (like 2 months ago), so this is all rather new to me. We only have the one TV with HDTV, the other one which run my xbox uses a standard definition satellite receiver, that's 50hz for sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    Mine says when I press the info button "1920 x 1080 50i"
    ITs a Samsung.
    Mine does too when the input is the sky box, it jumps to 60 when the input is the ps3. LG something or other..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    Mine does too when the input is the sky box, it jumps to 60 when the input is the ps3. LG something or other..
    Yea was memaning when viewing Sky. Will edit post.

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    The primary issue here, which I cannot see them resolving easily, if at all, is snap. You will always get judder when taking a 50Hz feed into a 60Hz dashboard. It can only be refreshing at either 50 or 60 Hz, not both.

    So what MS have created is an Xbox US. Almost the whole of the rest of the world broadcast at 50Hz

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Wow, Europe is so backwards, even little old NZ does 60hz HDTV.
    Of course if you signal is 50hz, I guess you could always cap the XBO to 50hz.
    According to Google even little old New Zealand broadcast their digital signal at 50hz.. The US and Japan are about the only countries in the world that dont.. What a backward country you live in..

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    Ok all, thanks for the info. I'm understanding now lol.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    According to Google even little old New Zealand broadcast their digital signal at 50hz.. The US and Japan are about the only countries in the world that dont.. What a backward country you live in..
    Its so backwards sometimes people call us middle earth
    I actually thought the article meant the TVs were 50hz (I used to have a HDTV -50hz only TV).

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  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparc View Post
    The primary issue here, which I cannot see them resolving easily, if at all, is snap. You will always get judder when taking a 50Hz feed into a 60Hz dashboard. It can only be refreshing at either 50 or 60 Hz, not both.

    So what MS have created is an Xbox US. Almost the whole of the rest of the world broadcast at 50Hz
    I am wondering, if this a direct overlay feed. Shouldn't it just result in screen tearing, not judder? (Tearing is unwatchable).
    Which would indicate that the feed is somehow synced to the XBO one not just a pass through.
    The XBO must detect the input signal as 50hz and massage it accordingly.

    Well, that makes that features kind of useless then to us PAL people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...e-judder-in-uk

    Way to go.. I'm fussy with my TV quality, that would bug the $#@! out of me..
    I've yet to try my Xbox to view TV. I take it your Xbox is working OK with your TV then, what with you not being bugged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    I am wondering, if this a direct overlay feed. Shouldn't it just result in screen tearing, not judder? (Tearing is unwatchable).
    Which would indicate that the feed is somehow synced to the XBO one not just a pass through.
    Yup.
    If the passtrough is double buffered with v-sync, it will judder.
    If it would be just double buffered, it would tear.
    If it would be single buffer, it would flicker or do some really strange things. (Tear like Goatse with possibility to see multiple parts of multiple frames?)
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    The XBO must detect the input signal as 50hz and massage it accordingly.

    Well, that makes that features kind of useless then to us PAL people.
    This would be only way to have 'proper' tv signal, sadly if using snap all games would either judder/tear or have to render to 50hz. (last option would be best unless game logic runs at 60hz...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Well, that makes that features kind of useless then to us PAL people.
    ^^This!

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