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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beast of Bourbon View Post
    I agree with some of that...
    -sure you can ask for extra cash for doing stuff that has nothing to do with your job
    -sure you can fix your mothers car for free and charge others
    ... i just don't get how it has anything to do with cashgrab DLC.

    Expansions used to be much more then just 5 maps or 2 new characters.
    When i hear "Expansion" i think of stuff like "Throne of Baal" for BaldursGateII or Lord of Destruction for DiabloII.
    DLC killed the "real "ExpansionPacks and it's just one more reason to hate it imo.

    It looks like they try to push it even further this gen and i simply can't have that
    Then vote with your wallet. They are just as much allowed to price themselves for the work they do as YOU do when you price your services or products to someone. If you find enough people that are willing to pay what you are asking for, you have no reason to lower your price. If you find very little people that are willing to pay what you think you should be, you may have to lower your quote .......or simply live with less opportunities and income.

    That's what gaming devs and publishers are like..... they are like us. People trying to get as much for their services as the market will bare.

    Complaining about this reminds me of the labor union mindset. They always demand people pay them higher and higher wages for family supporting jobs and calling the employers cheapskates...... YET..... they turn around and become the biggest cheapskates themselves, demanding the lowest price for the products and services of others in their own lives.

    This "money grab" as you call it is simply them trying to get a raise through OPTIONAL content instead of raising the price of the main game. How many other products in life do you know of, stay at the same price for 25+ years, while the cost of living keeps rising in all that time? We had a $50 price for games for 25+ years and a $60 dollar price for games for the last 8 years. Game development teams have become huge and with corresponding game budgets to match. If costs go up, people want raises and expenses get greater for them in their lives...... how are they ever gonna get a raise if their product stays stuck at the same price year after year?

    They can either force a game price increase on you, skimp on the game content (shorter, smaller game) ...or sell you extra content that's OPTIONAL to get that extra money.

    Out of those three......I vote they stick with getting that money through optional content.

    You may get mad that a guy got a rare car by paying for it, while you chose to grind through the game to earn it. But... look at it this way. He has the satisfaction of not having to grind away to get earn a car..... and you have the satisfaction of actually earning the car, not having to pay for it and that the money HE PAID is going towards making sure the guys who made the game get a raise. And if the game doesn't sell well enough, maybe that money for DLC from those few that bought it, will help them stay afloat until their next game is released.

    People rarely think of it that way. It's always about the THEIR financial burden and never consider OTHERS burdens as well.
    Last edited by GreatSpaceKoaster; 11-27-2013 at 18:03.

  2. #52
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    Ignoring the money aspect, cause basically if you willing to pay for these things, that's your choice, I think the better question is are these cars prohibitively expensive that your grind to get them is beyond reasonable? And more so beyond enjoyable.

    If so then the game shoudl get a major drop in its ratings, as any game thta actually locks away features so as they are unobtainable or at the very least, not actually fun to get to as a goal, is a fundamental design flaw in the game.
    We do it all the time in fact when we play a game and fell its crap and not worth playing to reach the next level.

    That that experience should be over 100 hours versus 1 hours worth of game-play shouldn't be a consideration, at the end of the day its not enjoyable.
    I can place a verdict on Forza 5 as F34R says, you get credits t different rates, but if it really is 100+ hours to reach those cars, then this game would get a distinctly below average rating in my books, I honestly do not believe that reviews had enough time with the game to give us a credible score.
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  3. #53
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    I honestly don't think the grind is beyond reasonable at this point. I'm earning pretty fast, and I'm not even that good at the game. Check my game play thread, you'll see what I'm talking about lol.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I honestly don't think the grind is beyond reasonable at this point. I'm earning pretty fast, and I'm not even that good at the game. Check my game play thread, you'll see what I'm talking about lol.
    Appearantly it will take you 454 hours of driving to unlock it all. Here´s a quote from gaf:

    What figure would you consider excessive? That 454 hours is pure driving, it's not including time spent doing anything else in the game.

    If you spent that long driving in real life you could literally drive the equivalent of the earth's circumference.

    If I treated the game like my job, 9-5, five days a week, it would take 13 weeks. Doing nothing but driving all day on the same 14 tracks.

    Seems excessive to me.

  5. #55
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    400+hours seems like a lot of game for the money. The legendary Final fantasy 7 is only 130 or so.
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  6. #56
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    Well, I never planned on buying ALL the cars in a month, two months, etc. It is like people are complaining about the "454" hours as if you're going to want to unlock everything in the game, in a certain time period, etc.

    If I play for only two hours a day, then I'll unlock it all a little over six months. I think it's perfectly doable with average time on the game.

    Also keep in mind, http://www.psu.com/forums/showthread...s%21-News-info , where they explain their intention to increase the earnings.
    Last edited by F34R; 11-27-2013 at 22:13.




  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by keefy View Post
    400+hours seems like a lot of game for the money. The legendary Final fantasy 7 is only 130 or so.
    900+hours.. we're talking about getting everything, yeah?

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  8. #58
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    Even if the logic was, "So what the problem, If people don't have time, they can unlock it for a fee, It's their time".

    Firstly this content is on the disc regardless if it's earnt through ingame money CR or tokens bought in the real world. So it doesn't cost the developer extra to produce that content, It was already on the disc you paid for fair and square. Buying it through tokens actually costs MORE that the actual game disc, these aren't micro transactions, these a megatransactions that transcend the price of the disc itself.

    Surely if the argument was They need to recoup the development costs, then why does it have the ability to unlock ingame with grind. The sheer amount of grind required to by the top end car for 6,000,000 in game credits is mind boggling, It's clearly designed with EA's "real racing 3" Megatransactions model in mind.

    Secondly, Back in the day when someone wanted skip ahead in a game, IE invincibility, infinite ingame money, health etc. There were cheatcodes... Provided by devs for FREE mainly because they are created for QA purposes and left in as a fun bonus or easter egg (GTA) or as free rewards for beating the game, MGS4 is a great example of this. The penalty was the achievement aspect was blocked. So if devs want to give people to ability skip ahead or give them time saving perks. Why charge them real money for something that is a line of code that unlocks something already on the disc? That should be free.
    Last edited by victorijapoosp; 11-28-2013 at 02:17.

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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Ignoring the money aspect, cause basically if you willing to pay for these things, that's your choice, I think the better question is are these cars prohibitively expensive that your grind to get them is beyond reasonable? And more so beyond enjoyable.

    If so then the game shoudl get a major drop in its ratings, as any game thta actually locks away features so as they are unobtainable or at the very least, not actually fun to get to as a goal, is a fundamental design flaw in the game.
    We do it all the time in fact when we play a game and fell its crap and not worth playing to reach the next level.

    That that experience should be over 100 hours versus 1 hours worth of game-play shouldn't be a consideration, at the end of the day its not enjoyable.
    I can place a verdict on Forza 5 as F34R says, you get credits t different rates, but if it really is 100+ hours to reach those cars, then this game would get a distinctly below average rating in my books, I honestly do not believe that reviews had enough time with the game to give us a credible score.
    Extra cars to unlock are no different then achievements to be unlocked except they give you the option to buy the car. It's like real life. People who have money can buy cars right away and those that don't have money must grind away at life in order to save up for that dream car. There is a reason why the whole world isn't driving around in Ferrari cars. They are rare cars (in relation to production and ownership compared to mass market cars) and as such, are likely to be rare to uncommon in Forza cuz some people don't think it's worth their money ...OR... their time to earn it.


    Quote Originally Posted by victorijapoosp View Post
    Even if the logic was, "So what the problem, If people don't have time, they can unlock it for a fee, It's their time".

    Firstly this content is on the disc regardless if it's earnt through ingame money CR or tokens bought in the real world. So it doesn't cost the developer extra to produce that content, It was already on the disc you paid for fair and square. Buying it through tokens actually costs MORE that the actual game disc, these aren't micro transactions, these a megatransactions that transcend the price of the disc itself.

    Surely if the argument was They need to recoup the development costs, then why does it have the ability to unlock ingame with grind. The sheer amount of grind required to by the top end car for 6,000,000 in game credits is mind boggling, It's clearly designed with EA's "real racing 3" Megatransactions model in mind.

    Secondly, Back in the day when someone wanted skip ahead in a game, IE invincibility, infinite ingame money, health etc. There were cheatcodes... Provided by devs for FREE mainly because they are created for QA purposes and left in as a fun bonus or easter egg (GTA) or as free rewards for beating the game, MGS4 is a great example of this. The penalty was the achievement aspect was blocked. So if devs want to give people to ability skip ahead or give them time saving perks. Why charge them real money for something that is a line of code that unlocks something already on the disc? That should be free.
    Just because it's on the disc, doesn't mean it's yours to use. When I purchase a new car that has a terrestrial radio/satellite radio combination receiver built-in, my purchase entitles me to be able to play the terrestrial radio for free. BUT... if I want to play the SiriusXM satellite radio side of it, I must PAY a subscription for that content.

    Another example is, back in the day when they used to have demo discs chock full of programs. They would include the entire program code of applications such as a paint program. But although the entire application code was in your procession and installed on your hard drive, it SELF-DISABLED key features or limited functions such as being able to SAVE content in a paint program. But once you sent money to the developer, they sent you a key code or key file that simply ENABLED code that was already laying dormant on your hard drive. You had the program code in your possession, but the software key allowed you ACCESS to it.

    Paying for a game disc only gave you the right to play the part of the disc that your money paid for access to. It doesn't entitle you to DLC if it's on the disc. Just like paying for a satellite radio doesn't give me the right to receive their content for free. I can buy an iPhone, but that only entitles me to the non-phone functions of it. The code on there that has to do with the phone functions is there, but I must subscribe to a carrier in order to get use of that code.

    I can come up with a ton of examples, but the point is clear. You have to get off this notion that just because you bought something, means you are entitled to use of all it's potential abilities.

    Just be lucky that they aren't forcing you to pay for it. Think of it like when you buy a product online. You have the option of getting it shipped for FREE if you choose the SLOWER UPS ground shipping option....OR..... PAY a premium to get that product delivered to you NEXT DAY AIR.

  10. #60
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    If you have to do this so you can run your game company then your games are not good.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    If you have to do this so you can run your game company then your games are not good.
    I don't agree with what they are doing, but just to be clear - Forza games are not just good, they're f'ing awesome.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparc View Post
    I don't agree with what they are doing, but just to be clear - Forza games are not just good, they're f'ing awesome.
    Then they would sell games and they wouldn't need to skin their players. When they do these things it isn't to make more money it is to cover for loses. I dont think the market for racing sims is profitable anymore.

    Who owns the game company? If it is Microsoft then that would explain the skinning of players because they are bleeding money now from the failures of their last CEO and FEO

  13. #63
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    Exactly lol. Right now, I'm ok with how it is going. I haven't had a single problem with progression. Now that they are going to even make it easier starting in December. Goodness.




  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    Then they would sell games and they wouldn't need to skin their players. When they do these things it isn't to make more money it is to cover for loses. I dont think the market for racing sims is profitable anymore.
    Seriously, you are way off base! Racing sims sell like hot cakes in Europe. They don't need to skin players to prevent themselves making a loss.

    Here's the current UK game chart (it's the highest ranking exclusive and 5th overall) it will sell and sell (not bad considering only Xbox One owners can be purchasers of the game, not even 360 owners can get it and all the other games above it are mulitplat and multi-gen)

    http://www.chart-track.co.uk/index.j....jsp&ct=110015


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  16. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparc View Post
    Seriously, you are way off base! Racing sims sell like hot cakes in Europe. They don't need to skin players to prevent themselves making a loss.

    Here's the current UK game chart (it's the highest ranking exclusive and 5th overall) it will sell and sell (not bad considering only Xbox One owners can be purchasers of the game, not even 360 owners can get it and all the other games above it are mulitplat and multi-gen)

    http://www.chart-track.co.uk/index.j....jsp&ct=110015
    If that was remotely true they wouldn't be skinning their players.

  17. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    If that was remotely true they wouldn't be skinning their players.
    If what was remotely true? The UK Chart figures from Chart GFK? Pretty sure they're true. I think what's flawed, and what you are seemingly intent on overlooking, is your theorem.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Yeah, I'm not a sim racer fan so I can't really comment on this article. What you say makes sense though. If you can achieve all the cars without spending an extra penny then I don't really see a problem unless they purposely made it much more difficult to accomplish this than in previous versions of the game. But again.....for games like these, I am an outsider looking in. But I worry about this type of thing making its way to other non-F2P games.
    I'm kind of on the middle ground here. A bit unusual for me, but, on the one hand, US$60 to unlock a single car, even THE car, is really too steep for an in-game purchase -- it's more than almost any entire DLC package. On the other hand, Lee estimates it's about 60 hours playing Forza to earn the car; avid Forza fans refer to 60 hours playing Forza as "a long weekend."

    F34R's remarks about gameplay time to earn credits seems about right to me from my and my kids' experience playing Forza 5. I think if you've got your heart absolutely set on that Lotus and right off that's all you play for, don't care about any other cars or customization, it's quite a bit less than 60 hours gameplay to buy it. Fair amount of dedicated gameplay, but not 60 hours.

    Though I can see Lee's point about the real-world cash price of the Lotus on top of Forza 5's price, tacking on the price of an entirely optional third-party racing wheel to Forza 5, and also the Xbox One itself, he goes completely off the beam. And this is coming from someone who bought a pricey luxury wheel to play GT5 on PS3. The overwhelming majority of Forza 5 players won't buy a wheel, won't even consider it. As for the console itself, that's just crazy. You can't count the price of a console that will last years and years and eventually play hundreds or thousands of games into the price of one launch game. If he's going to do that he may as well tell online shooter players that Titanfall really costs US$560 to play.

  19. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparc View Post
    If what was remotely true? The UK Chart figures from Chart GFK? Pretty sure they're true. I think what's flawed, and what you are seemingly intent on overlooking, is your theorem.
    The uk is a relatively small consumer base

    tapatalk post

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    If that was remotely true they wouldn't be skinning their players.
    No.... the person paying the money is skinning himself. Especially considering he has the option of earning it for free. The price is so high that it's the devs way of encouraging you to play rather than pay..... but still giving you the option to pay.


    Among other words..... if ya wanna press this....

    ????


    It's gonna cost you this.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by thanatos144 View Post
    The uk is a relatively small consumer base

    tapatalk post
    Well firstly, I was originally talking about Europe (I'll just assume for now you know the difference). The chart was for the UK simply because I knew where to find it and because it is indicative of how the game fairs in Europe.

    However, just on the subject of the UK gaming market size, it may surprise you to learn that there are over 30 million gamers in the UK (http://www.iabuk.net/news/33-million-uk-game-players) which means it's the third largest gaming country in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_g...United_Kingdom). So when you say 'relatively small' one has to wonder if you know much at all about gaming outside of North America. With a market size of $5.2bn in 2012 I think you can see how weak your original argument looks.

    Just a a reminder, Forza 5 is 5th in the charts at the moment .... in the 3rd largest gaming market on the planet ...

    /case closed


  22. Likes Malt wishes they had posted this first.
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    Actually its the 2nd largest market in the world.
    The BS about Germany was debunked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I am an average gamer. I'll let you know when it's unacceptable in Forza. I'm making decent amounts right now, just from playing the game in a normal way.

    "Boogie" has the same opinion on it that I do.
    Aren't you being a bit arrogant there? [sorry, I don't know how else to put it] Why do you think you can tell others what they should find unacceptable and when?

    If you are willing to put up with this, that's ENTIRELY you. You really can't expect others to do the same. We need to draw a line somewhere.....it seems the developers are definitely trying to see how much they can get away with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    Aren't you being a bit arrogant there? [sorry, I don't know how else to put it] Why do you think you can tell others what they should find unacceptable and when?

    If you are willing to put up with this, that's ENTIRELY you. You really can't expect others to do the same. We need to draw a line somewhere.....it seems the developers are definitely trying to see how much they can get away with.
    The post I replied to asked "Where do you...", so my reply was for myself only. So, no arrogance there. Everyone is more than able to draw a line of their own.




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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    Aren't you being a bit arrogant there? [sorry, I don't know how else to put it] Why do you think you can tell others what they should find unacceptable and when?

    If you are willing to put up with this, that's ENTIRELY you. You really can't expect others to do the same. We need to draw a line somewhere.....it seems the developers are definitely trying to see how much they can get away with.
    Putting the line in somewhere is called personal taste.
    I like some game I don't like others.
    I understand some (plenty) would like this to be about the fact that they have you the option to buy tokens but it really isn't.
    Its about if the game is broken without that option. If it is forcing you to buy those tokens, then yeah its a really crap game that's not worth your time.

    I don't begrudge the option of buying tokens, if you wan't to cheat, then that's entirely up to you.
    People have bought cheat guides and handbooks for games for years.
    But if the game is broken without them, then yeah that's really not acceptable in any way, other than to put a big bad x across it and sya "this game is not worth my time".
    I have felt that way about plenty of games that never asked me to put an extra dime towards them.
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  27. Likes sainraja wishes they had posted this first.
  28. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    The post I replied to asked "Where do you...", so my reply was for myself only. So, no arrogance there. Everyone is more than able to draw a line of their own.
    Okay, fair enough. Going back and re-reading your post, I just read it out of context.

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