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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    So PS4 won't have a long lifespan while being quiet and power efficient? What if it's more in those regards as well? Point is, doing all of those things cost more money due to R&D required.


    it would make sense to me that the japs did not just design the casing but likely the whole layout and probably everything else other than the chips. unless you meant to say that. what does it mean that they designed the casing? like just the way it looks on the outter side? hah. i hope that's not what you meant.

    didn't think americans worked on blu-ray players (as most popular ones are by the japanese companies).

    do you have that anadtech link that says otherwise?
    PS4 was designed to be as small as possible. X1 was designed to be always on (for atleast ~10 years), whether it was being used by itself, or for passthrough with your cable/satellite box. MS took no risks with the design and made sure that it would be damn near impossible for the X1 to have thermal issues. And doing this does not cost as much regarding R/D, sony would have likely spent more by trying to make everything fit in such a small space and not have thermal issues. (though I want to see how the design holds up over the years)

    Sony designed the casing/layout but the APU (CPU/GPU), RAM, WIFI/Bluetooth/LAN module and possibly other components were designed by American or Western companies. (non asian)

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7528/t...dware-analysis

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    PS4 was designed to be as small as possible. X1 was designed to be always on (for atleast ~10 years), whether it was being used by itself, or for passthrough with your cable/satellite box. MS took no risks with the design and made sure that it would be damn near impossible for the X1 to have thermal issues. And doing this does not cost as much regarding R/D, sony would have likely spent more by trying to make everything fit in such a small space and not have thermal issues. (though I want to see how the design holds up over the years)
    you'd only need a bigger size if you can't keep the power consumption low and can't design a good cooling system. with the proper design and consumption levels, you can have something small that can last longer, stay quieter and be more efficient.

    the article "assumes" that this is the reason for the big design, it doesn't provide evidence.

    Sony designed the casing/layout but the APU (CPU/GPU), RAM, WIFI/Bluetooth/LAN module and possibly other components were designed by American or Western companies. (non asian)

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7528/t...dware-analysis
    Obviously APU/RAM and it doesn't matter who makes the wifi/bt/lan because those are small anyway. i'm curious who actually designed the mobo because that's the biggest chunk + PSU + blu-ray drive (but blu-ray doesn't matter because both consoles likely have one made by a japanese company). i didn't see that anywhere in the article unless you were just presenting the article as a general reference to our discussion and not this part of it.

  3. #53
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    this is why ps4 costs less to make




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    LOL! Love the gif. rofl. That was pretty epic.

    The Xbox One definitely gets some heat going. It feels just about the same as the PS4 when I lay my hand on top of it. I can feel the warmth.




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    i don't get the joke... ???

    EDIT: lol ohh...meaning they are specialized towards games. yeah, i get it now. i didn't realize he was asking his soldiers first.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    You do realize that American companies designed the technology right? Asians just tend to manufacture it.
    So why do people and you're taught in High School and somewhat college that Japan is one of the most technological advanced countries in the world? If that's true, then making quality video games and video game consoles is nothing to them.

    This is kind of person, but M2, you know what you be talking about in these "hardware" threads. Could you pm me some links with info about how video game consoles are made and operate? I want to get into these discussions.

    Currently Playing: Lumines Electronic Symphony (Vita)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    So why do people and you're taught in High School and somewhat college that Japan is one of the most technological advanced countries in the world? If that's true, then making quality video games and video game consoles is nothing to them.
    the japanese are still the bread and butter of continuous improvement and efficiency. just that they don't manufacture it anymore, he said "asians", which also includes the chinese so he's correct there but his implication was incorrect because we're not talking about asians, we're talking specifically about the japanese so no point in bringing up asians as a whole.

    indians/pakistanis are also asians. so are malay people, Philippines etc.

    americans are starting to sort of give feedback to what should be included in there and what should be thrown out, that's what americans excel at, listening to feedback and i don't think PS4 could've been built entirely by the japanese because they lack perspective "sometimes". they're not always up to times with what the consumer really wants.

    especially now that the west has practically taken over video game development. so it only makes sense to let the Americans or the westerns decide what the consoles should be about. but when you give Americans to design something, they will come up with an F-350 whereas the Japanese will come up with a smart car.

    you just gotta work around all the weaknesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Sony was hurting with the PS3. Things have improved a bit since that generation was winding down, but sony need to make money off of the PS4. And seeing as how the X1 is ~$100 more, sony isn't really under any pressure to do price cuts.

    The way I see it, MS will do some kind of price cut/promotion for the X1 in 2014 (~$50 off) and sony will have a PS4 price cut (likely ~$50) in 2015. (probably after E3, possibly not until the end of fall/beginning of holiday season)

    I'd expect MS to have another (~$50) price cut in 2015, but the question is when will the X1 reach price parity with the PS4? And can they do that while offering Kinect with every console? My guess is that it will likely happen in 2016 (possibly with a smaller/redesigned console (assuming a 6 year lifecycle before being replaced with the next generation xbox console)) and still retain kinect. (I'm sure they will find way to make it cost less to produce as well, and I think the slim console redesign of the X1 may be the first time a kinectless X1 may be offered (but probably not)) I'd also expect the second PS4 price cut to come in 2017. (~$50 again) By the time the PS5 comes around I expect the PS4 to be at ~$250, $199 at the bare minimum. (but I think $250 is more likely)



    Clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.



    Based on what I said above (assuming it plays out like that) I see it doing very well. At $450 (or $50 more than a standalone PS4) with kinect, the X1 becomes significantly more compelling (cheaper than a PS4 + camera).

    Whenever the X1 reaches price parity with the PS4 (hopefully including kinect), it will be pretty much a no brainier. At that point the only major differentiator for the PS4 is its exclusive titles.
    Disagree. Hardware disparity will always remain. Even with Kinect 2.0, you're sacrificing something to get that in the box, and that's a significantly paired down GPU. We're kind of already seeing this with launch titles aren't we? Devkit issues aside, the resolution disparity is a churning abyss.

    It's not good. BF4, COD Ghosts, Assassin's Creed etc etc.

    Unless multiplat developers are willing to tone down the PS4 versions of their games, I find it hard to believe that they'd be willing to put up their XB1 variant head to head with the PS4 at an identical resolution.

    Now, it could be argued that excluding performance and visuals it is a 'no brainer' simply from the extra media functionality and Kinect 2.0.. But even with this hypothetical $50 price cut we're talking about there is no parity in cost. Only if you count the EyeToy.

    Never mind that PSN is currently roflstomping XBL Gold in value (and isn't it cheaper too?).

    Maybe I'm just too educated on this and all of these finer points will be lost to the masses of casual gamers out there. But from where I sit, this isn't really a no brainer.

    I'm also not sure how much real headroom MS has for shrinking this thing when we consider the ESRAM (which dominates the die space of the XB1 APU) and Kinect 2.0. Unless we have some information on that front this could prove to be troubling for them.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 11-29-2013 at 05:28.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    you'd only need a bigger size if you can't keep the power consumption low and can't design a good cooling system. with the proper design and consumption levels, you can have something small that can last longer, stay quieter and be more efficient.

    the article "assumes" that this is the reason for the big design, it doesn't provide evidence.


    Obviously APU/RAM and it doesn't matter who makes the wifi/bt/lan because those are small anyway. i'm curious who actually designed the mobo because that's the biggest chunk + PSU + blu-ray drive (but blu-ray doesn't matter because both consoles likely have one made by a japanese company). i didn't see that anywhere in the article unless you were just presenting the article as a general reference to our discussion and not this part of it.
    Except laptops disprove this. Typically the smaller you go/thinner the chassis is, the hotter the laptop gets. It is quite uncommon to have a slim laptop that runs cool. (HW temps and to the touch (case temps))

    "you can have something small that can last longer, stay quieter and be more efficient. "

    Yeah, but that is more difficult. It requires more effort and more money to be done properly compared to a larger design. Why bother with that hassle? It is a console, sits under/next to your tv and likely isn't moved around a lot?

    "the article "assumes" that this is the reason for the big design, it doesn't provide evidence."

    Well it's the best we have until somebody interviews the X1 designers and asked them why the console is so large? And anandtech is basically the be all end all of tech sites, so I wouldn't just brush off his views so quickly.

    The APU/RAM/ communication chipsets do matter. (regarding performance and energy efficiency for example) If you read the anandtech article, the apu/esram size issue was specifically mentioned. I'd guess the board was designed by AMD, with input from sony and TSMC (the manufacturer, I believe). FYI, Cerny stated that while he picked the hardware specs, he had no say/knowledge of the case design/layout until it was unveiled to the public.

    The X1 blu ray drive was designed by Philips (European) and Lite-on (Taiwanese) so no Japanese blu-ray drive there. Not sure about the PS4 since I couldn't find any pictures of the stickers on the drive (if there are any). Sony did design the PS4 powersupply, which makes sense since they has a special process they used with the ps3 to make it smaller (interesting how the PS4 PSU is rated for less power (250W, vs 380 for launch PS3's) yet seems to be larger.

    And yes the anantech article was a general reference, for specifics (on the internal hardware, for identification) you need to look at the console teardowns.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Wolf View Post
    So why do people and you're taught in High School and somewhat college that Japan is one of the most technological advanced countries in the world? If that's true, then making quality video games and video game consoles is nothing to them.

    This is kind of person, but M2, you know what you be talking about in these "hardware" threads. Could you pm me some links with info about how video game consoles are made and operate? I want to get into these discussions.
    Well Japan had to most of that out of necessity. Not to mention they have had an interesting history in the past ~150 years.

    Point is they had to basically rebuild their society after WWII which helped put them on the path to modernization. In the 80's and 90's they used to be a significant presence various fields, especially relating to technology/consumer electronics. But that has changed now. Korean/Taiwanese/Chinese tend to do those things now, with Japanese companies having a significantly reduced presence with not much (if any) advantages over their Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese counterparts.. They tend to focus on bigger things like automobiles, trains, buildings/structures, construction equipment/heavy machinery ect.

    As for the game consoles thing, you realize that Sony brought in an outsider (who is western) and a software guy to design/choose the hardware of their next playstation. A software guy, not a hardware engineer. Compare this to Microsoft which is primarily a software company. Do you see where I'm going with this?

    Just read the various tech sites (like arstechnicia) and visit website that tend to do more indepth articles about hardware (Digital Foundry), ifixit, chipworks, ect. Most of the articles are posted in the forums so they shouldn't be hard to find.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    the japanese are still the bread and butter of continuous improvement and efficiency. just that they don't manufacture it anymore, he said "asians", which also includes the chinese so he's correct there but his implication was incorrect because we're not talking about asians, we're talking specifically about the japanese so no point in bringing up asians as a whole.

    indians/pakistanis are also asians. so are malay people, Philippines etc.

    americans are starting to sort of give feedback to what should be included in there and what should be thrown out, that's what americans excel at, listening to feedback and i don't think PS4 could've been built entirely by the japanese because they lack perspective "sometimes". they're not always up to times with what the consumer really wants.

    especially now that the west has practically taken over video game development. so it only makes sense to let the Americans or the westerns decide what the consoles should be about. but when you give Americans to design something, they will come up with an F-350 whereas the Japanese will come up with a smart car.

    you just gotta work around all the weaknesses.
    No, you are dismissing other asians too quickly. Japan has lost a significant amount of their edge over other asian countries regarding consumer electronic. Back in the 80's/90's Japanese consumer electronics were among the best (if not the best) in the world. They didn't really have any foreign competition (for the most part) and nearly everything they produced was a quality product that typically was ahead of non Japanese consumer electronics in certain ways. That is no longer the case. Korea has 2 major powerhouse corporations, Samsung and LG. They design/manufacture a lot of consumer electronics and the hardware inside of them. And the Taiwanese/Chinese are right their with them (though with most companies being smaller than samsung/LG) Japanese companies don't really offer much in those areas these days.

    Your car analogy is also flawed. First the F350 is great for what it was built for, the smart car (which isn't even Japanese (should have used the scion iq as an example) sucks (also applies to the scion iq) for what it was built for.

    Also you aren't figuring in perspective into the philosophy of a Japanese company vs, say a western one. japan is a small country with a large (but shrinking population). A lot of people live in dense cities, and the cost of living can be rather expensive in japan (at least in the major cities). So based off of this, Japanese companies inherently try to make small/compact and efficient products because that is what they need to do to be successful in the Japanese market. They then try to extrapolate these products to non Japanese markets. In the US, we don't have these inherent limitations, so making the smallest/most compact product isn't necessarily what first comes to mind when an American company creates a product. If we faced the same constraints as Japan, I think we would be very competitive with the products we put out. (also remember, Americans are bigger than Japanese people (and I'm not even talking about weight/obesity), mostly height/body structure)

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Disagree. Hardware disparity will always remain. Even with Kinect 2.0, you're sacrificing something to get that in the box, and that's a significantly paired down GPU. We're kind of already seeing this with launch titles aren't we? Devkit issues aside, the resolution disparity is a churning abyss.

    It's not good. BF4, COD Ghosts, Assassin's Creed etc etc.

    Unless multiplat developers are willing to tone down the PS4 versions of their games, I find it hard to believe that they'd be willing to put up their XB1 variant head to head with the PS4 at an identical resolution.
    Hardware disparity isn't really going to matter. We aren't talking about wii U levels of hardware here. And it certainly didn't have any really effect on how successful the PS2 was. PS3 did fine despite multiplts generally being inferior in fidelity/performance to 360 versions. At typical living room viewing distances most people aren't even going to be able to spot the differences. (if they even care) Also with an estimated 6 year console cycle, compared to the 7/8 years of the previous gen, I don't think developers are going to be invested so much in the hardware (and forced to) constantly find new ways to extricate as much power out the hardware as is possible for us to see any major differences.

    Also do you really think that kinect is going to reserve 10% of the gpu for in perpetuity for this generation with no reductions made as the software can be improved/made more efficient? (regarding resources)

    I think that number will decrease, just like how the 360/PS3 OS's consumed less memory over time.

    Honestly I believe the launch title issues are pretty much due to limited time with final hardware and poor sdk's/dev tools from MS leading up to launch. You should know that it is foolish to make any definitive conclusions now since things can change quite a bit from launch. (based on what we saw with the PS3, with your line of thinking the PS3 would be destined to suffer for the entire generation, which wasn't what happened)

    Now I can't say which way devs will go: whether X1/PS4 games will run at the same resolution (1080p) and the PS4 version has better effects, textures, ect. or that PS4 games are 1080p native and X1 games are scaled up from ~1600 X 900 to 1080p but aside from the resolution difference the games would be identical.

    But again, it would be foolish to make any definitive conclusions now. We know that near the end of the generation, PS3 games basically had identical performance to 360 games. I don't see why that can't be the case this generation.

    Also we have conflicting dev opinions:

    http://www.psu.com/a021823/The-Witch...it-more-compli

    Now, it could be argued that excluding performance and visuals it is a 'no brainer' simply from the extra media functionality and Kinect 2.0.. But even with this hypothetical $50 price cut we're talking about there is no parity in cost. Only if you count the EyeToy.
    Did you carefully read my post. Because I made 2 major statements. The first was an X1 with kinect at ~$450 compared to a PS4 with the camera at ~$460. That basically shuts up whoever said that PS4 + camera was cheaper than the X1 with kinect and treated the two as being equivalent. (when we all know that nothing compares to kinect from Sony/Nintendo) That will make a bit if a difference, especially when the bigger titles start to drop After E3 2014, but that is not the critical point. The critical point is when the X1 with kinect is equal to the price of a standalone PS4, whether that is at $399, $349, or possibly some other price point. As I said, I don't really see anything outside of PS4 exclusives that is compelling enough by itself to make a difference.

    Never mind that PSN is currently roflstomping XBL Gold in value (and isn't it cheaper too?).
    That depends on what you are looking for a service to offer. If you want "free" games then yes, PSN is currently better than XBL Gold. If you want the best service for online gaming, XBL is still king.

    As for pricing, outside of Buying my original live starter kit for the original xbox and the 1st year automatic renewal, I've never paid more than $40 dollars for a 12 month/1year gold subscription.

    Also, no matter how you cut it, for ps3 owners who came from a free online experience to a paid PS4 online experience, any cost is a downside.



    Maybe I'm just too educated on this and all of these finer points will be lost to the masses of casual gamers out there. But from where I sit, this isn't really a no brainer.
    I like and respect you as a member of this forum, but you need to get off your high horse. Arrogance is not a beneficial trait.

    IIRC, you base your console purchases off of which console is more "powerful" So you originally got an xbox over the PS2/gamecube. Which made sense based off of that philosophy.

    However, you then bought a PS3 over a 360. And no matter what the direhard fans say about a few exclusives, for the vast majority of games (talking about multiplats here) the 360 provided a better experience over the PS3 specifically regarding graphical fidelity and performance. (not talking about anything else here like the online services, controllers, even bugs/glitches ect. Just graphical fidelity and game performance).

    So regarding your "education" you definitely struck out there.

    We are more informed than casuals, because we choose to be (mostly because we care about this kind of stuff, enough to join at post at a dedicated gaming forum). Not because we are inherently better or more "educated". I'm sure a "casual gamer" could say the same about us regarding a different topic.

    I'm also not sure how much real headroom MS has for shrinking this thing when we consider the ESRAM (which dominates the die space of the XB1 APU) and Kinect 2.0. Unless we have some information on that front this could prove to be troubling for them.
    I would be shocked if MS didn't have a specific/detailed plan on reducing X1 manufacturing costs as fast as possible (or in a timely manner at the very least) to minimize hardware cost/manufacturing losses and maximize profitability. I'm not going to worry about it now when the consoles have just launched. RROD was a much bigger issue that was dealt with. MS may have made some mistakes with the X1, but I don't believe that this is one of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Well Japan had to most of that out of necessity. Not to mention they have had an interesting history in the past ~150 years.

    Point is they had to basically rebuild their society after WWII which helped put them on the path to modernization. In the 80's and 90's they used to be a significant presence various fields, especially relating to technology/consumer electronics. But that has changed now. Korean/Taiwanese/Chinese tend to do those things now, with Japanese companies having a significantly reduced presence with not much (if any) advantages over their Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese counterparts.. They tend to focus on bigger things like automobiles, trains, buildings/structures, construction equipment/heavy machinery ect.

    As for the game consoles thing, you realize that Sony brought in an outsider (who is western) and a software guy to design/choose the hardware of their next playstation. A software guy, not a hardware engineer. Compare this to Microsoft which is primarily a software company. Do you see where I'm going with this?

    Just read the various tech sites (like arstechnicia) and visit website that tend to do more indepth articles about hardware (Digital Foundry), ifixit, chipworks, ect. Most of the articles are posted in the forums so they shouldn't be hard to find.
    Ah, so I was right to say Japan and Asian countries. Well, at least some Asian countries.

    Thank you Matrix!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Except laptops disprove this. Typically the smaller you go/thinner the chassis is, the hotter the laptop gets. It is quite uncommon to have a slim laptop that runs cool. (HW temps and to the touch (case temps))

    "you can have something small that can last longer, stay quieter and be more efficient. "

    Yeah, but that is more difficult. It requires more effort and more money to be done properly compared to a larger design. Why bother with that hassle? It is a console, sits under/next to your tv and likely isn't moved around a lot?

    "the article "assumes" that this is the reason for the big design, it doesn't provide evidence."

    Well it's the best we have until somebody interviews the X1 designers and asked them why the console is so large? And anandtech is basically the be all end all of tech sites, so I wouldn't just brush off his views so quickly.

    The APU/RAM/ communication chipsets do matter. (regarding performance and energy efficiency for example) If you read the anandtech article, the apu/esram size issue was specifically mentioned. I'd guess the board was designed by AMD, with input from sony and TSMC (the manufacturer, I believe). FYI, Cerny stated that while he picked the hardware specs, he had no say/knowledge of the case design/layout until it was unveiled to the public.

    The X1 blu ray drive was designed by Philips (European) and Lite-on (Taiwanese) so no Japanese blu-ray drive there. Not sure about the PS4 since I couldn't find any pictures of the stickers on the drive (if there are any). Sony did design the PS4 powersupply, which makes sense since they has a special process they used with the ps3 to make it smaller (interesting how the PS4 PSU is rated for less power (250W, vs 380 for launch PS3's) yet seems to be larger.

    And yes the anantech article was a general reference, for specifics (on the internal hardware, for identification) you need to look at the console teardowns.



    Well Japan had to most of that out of necessity. Not to mention they have had an interesting history in the past ~150 years.

    Point is they had to basically rebuild their society after WWII which helped put them on the path to modernization. In the 80's and 90's they used to be a significant presence various fields, especially relating to technology/consumer electronics. But that has changed now. Korean/Taiwanese/Chinese tend to do those things now, with Japanese companies having a significantly reduced presence with not much (if any) advantages over their Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese counterparts.. They tend to focus on bigger things like automobiles, trains, buildings/structures, construction equipment/heavy machinery ect.

    As for the game consoles thing, you realize that Sony brought in an outsider (who is western) and a software guy to design/choose the hardware of their next playstation. A software guy, not a hardware engineer. Compare this to Microsoft which is primarily a software company. Do you see where I'm going with this?

    Just read the various tech sites (like arstechnicia) and visit website that tend to do more indepth articles about hardware (Digital Foundry), ifixit, chipworks, ect. Most of the articles are posted in the forums so they shouldn't be hard to find.



    No, you are dismissing other asians too quickly. Japan has lost a significant amount of their edge over other asian countries regarding consumer electronic. Back in the 80's/90's Japanese consumer electronics were among the best (if not the best) in the world. They didn't really have any foreign competition (for the most part) and nearly everything they produced was a quality product that typically was ahead of non Japanese consumer electronics in certain ways. That is no longer the case. Korea has 2 major powerhouse corporations, Samsung and LG. They design/manufacture a lot of consumer electronics and the hardware inside of them. And the Taiwanese/Chinese are right their with them (though with most companies being smaller than samsung/LG) Japanese companies don't really offer much in those areas these days.

    Your car analogy is also flawed. First the F350 is great for what it was built for, the smart car (which isn't even Japanese (should have used the scion iq as an example) sucks (also applies to the scion iq) for what it was built for.

    Also you aren't figuring in perspective into the philosophy of a Japanese company vs, say a western one. japan is a small country with a large (but shrinking population). A lot of people live in dense cities, and the cost of living can be rather expensive in japan (at least in the major cities). So based off of this, Japanese companies inherently try to make small/compact and efficient products because that is what they need to do to be successful in the Japanese market. They then try to extrapolate these products to non Japanese markets. In the US, we don't have these inherent limitations, so making the smallest/most compact product isn't necessarily what first comes to mind when an American company creates a product. If we faced the same constraints as Japan, I think we would be very competitive with the products we put out. (also remember, Americans are bigger than Japanese people (and I'm not even talking about weight/obesity), mostly height/body structure)



    Hardware disparity isn't really going to matter. We aren't talking about wii U levels of hardware here. And it certainly didn't have any really effect on how successful the PS2 was. PS3 did fine despite multiplts generally being inferior in fidelity/performance to 360 versions. At typical living room viewing distances most people aren't even going to be able to spot the differences. (if they even care) Also with an estimated 6 year console cycle, compared to the 7/8 years of the previous gen, I don't think developers are going to be invested so much in the hardware (and forced to) constantly find new ways to extricate as much power out the hardware as is possible for us to see any major differences.

    Also do you really think that kinect is going to reserve 10% of the gpu for in perpetuity for this generation with no reductions made as the software can be improved/made more efficient? (regarding resources)

    I think that number will decrease, just like how the 360/PS3 OS's consumed less memory over time.

    Honestly I believe the launch title issues are pretty much due to limited time with final hardware and poor sdk's/dev tools from MS leading up to launch. You should know that it is foolish to make any definitive conclusions now since things can change quite a bit from launch. (based on what we saw with the PS3, with your line of thinking the PS3 would be destined to suffer for the entire generation, which wasn't what happened)

    Now I can't say which way devs will go: whether X1/PS4 games will run at the same resolution (1080p) and the PS4 version has better effects, textures, ect. or that PS4 games are 1080p native and X1 games are scaled up from ~1600 X 900 to 1080p but aside from the resolution difference the games would be identical.

    But again, it would be foolish to make any definitive conclusions now. We know that near the end of the generation, PS3 games basically had identical performance to 360 games. I don't see why that can't be the case this generation.

    Also we have conflicting dev opinions:

    http://www.psu.com/a021823/The-Witch...it-more-compli



    Did you carefully read my post. Because I made 2 major statements. The first was an X1 with kinect at ~$450 compared to a PS4 with the camera at ~$460. That basically shuts up whoever said that PS4 + camera was cheaper than the X1 with kinect and treated the two as being equivalent. (when we all know that nothing compares to kinect from Sony/Nintendo) That will make a bit if a difference, especially when the bigger titles start to drop After E3 2014, but that is not the critical point. The critical point is when the X1 with kinect is equal to the price of a standalone PS4, whether that is at $399, $349, or possibly some other price point. As I said, I don't really see anything outside of PS4 exclusives that is compelling enough by itself to make a difference.



    That depends on what you are looking for a service to offer. If you want "free" games then yes, PSN is currently better than XBL Gold. If you want the best service for online gaming, XBL is still king.

    As for pricing, outside of Buying my original live starter kit for the original xbox and the 1st year automatic renewal, I've never paid more than $40 dollars for a 12 month/1year gold subscription.

    Also, no matter how you cut it, for ps3 owners who came from a free online experience to a paid PS4 online experience, any cost is a downside.





    I like and respect you as a member of this forum, but you need to get off your high horse. Arrogance is not a beneficial trait.


    IIRC, you base your console purchases off of which console is more "powerful" So you originally got an xbox over the PS2/gamecube. Which made sense based off of that philosophy.

    However, you then bought a PS3 over a 360. And no matter what the direhard fans say about a few exclusives, for the vast majority of games (talking about multiplats here) the 360 provided a better experience over the PS3 specifically regarding graphical fidelity and performance. (not talking about anything else here like the online services, controllers, even bugs/glitches ect. Just graphical fidelity and game performance).

    So regarding your "education" you definitely struck out there.

    We are more informed than casuals, because we choose to be (mostly because we care about this kind of stuff, enough to join at post at a dedicated gaming forum). Not because we are inherently better or more "educated". I'm sure a "casual gamer" could say the same about us regarding a different topic.



    I would be shocked if MS didn't have a specific/detailed plan on reducing X1 manufacturing costs as fast as possible (or in a timely manner at the very least) to minimize hardware cost/manufacturing losses and maximize profitability. I'm not going to worry about it now when the consoles have just launched. RROD was a much bigger issue that was dealt with. MS may have made some mistakes with the X1, but I don't believe that this is one of them.
    Oh coming from you that's rich, especially given the diatribe you poured on me when I had the audacity to purchase a SIG firearm. ffs. My "education" didn't fail me, and do you really $#@!ing think that the majority of gamers out there going to purchase consoles have the level of knowledge that many of the posters here (me, you, Mynd, Lefien, Sufi, etc) do?

    For Christ's sake, it was simply another way of saying that the minutia of this subject is probably lost on the majority of gamers who go out shopping- that's hardly inaccurate or a 'high horse' statement.

    As for your memory, it's flawed. I had a Gamecube first, PS2 second and an Xbox third (bought it when I saw Halo in a game magazine, read Fall of Reach, and played it. Instantly hooked). I was like 11 at the time anyway.

    For the next gen, I got a PS3 and then a 360- then sold the PS3 and kept the 360 and decided to just keep waiting to see what happens with the next batch of boxes.

    I base my purchases off of various criteria- performance, features, games and cost in no particular order. But yes, I prefer the most technically advanced machine.

    And how exactly are you so certain that PSN on PS4 is inferior to XBL on the Xbox One? You assume that it is a superior service for multiplayer gaming, and it certainly was last generation, but what metric are you using to determine this? Microsoft's rhetoric about "the cloud"?

    I'm not saying it isn't possible, but given that PS+ is cheaper and they just throw oodles of premium content at you for nothing- I fail to see how anything outside of an equally mind blowing "multiplayer experience offered by XBL" can objectively make it a service that provides better bang for your buck.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 11-30-2013 at 02:44.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Oh coming from you that's rich, especially given the diatribe you poured on me when I had the audacity to purchase a SIG firearm. ffs. My "education" didn't fail me, and do you really $#@!ing think that the majority of gamers out there going to purchase consoles have the level of knowledge that many of the posters here (me, you, Mynd, Lefien, Sufi, etc) do?

    For Christ's sake, it was simply another way of saying that the minutia of this subject is probably lost on the majority of gamers who go out shopping- that's hardly inaccurate or a 'high horse' statement.

    As for your memory, it's flawed. I had a Gamecube first, PS2 second and an Xbox third (bought it when I saw Halo in a game magazine, read Fall of Reach, and played it. Instantly hooked). I was like 11 at the time anyway.

    For the next gen, I got a PS3 and then a 360- then sold the PS3 and kept the 360 and decided to just keep waiting to see what happens with the next batch of boxes.

    I base my purchases off of various criteria- performance, features, games and cost in no particular order. But yes, I prefer the most technically advanced machine.
    Hey now, I wasn't the one who bought the affront to John Moses Browning's genius.

    Anyways, no I don't think the average gamer has the same level of knowledge as various members of this forum (among others). But does it really matter? Is our money any more valuable than theirs? It's not like Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft are actively seeking input/listening to the opinions of their hardcore gamers, they only care about the opinions of the masses, which greatly outnumber us. Sure they pander to us, but once they hit 10 million (or whatever number they need to establish console viability) they don't really care about us anymore.

    And it's not like this only applies to gaming consoles, it is basically the same for every industry that sells to the general public/mass market.

    The best we can do is try an inform the mass market so they make better decisions. (which could benefit us based on what goals/preferences we have)

    And how exactly are you so certain that PSN on PS4 is inferior to XBL on the Xbox One? You assume that it is a superior service for multiplayer gaming, and it certainly was last generation, but what metric are you using to determine this? Microsoft's rhetoric about "the cloud"?

    I'm not saying it isn't possible, but given that PS+ is cheaper and they just throw oodles of premium content at you for nothing- I fail to see how anything outside of an equally mind blowing "multiplayer experience offered by XBL" can objectively make it a service that provides better bang for your buck.
    What exactly has sony said about PSN on the PS4 that makes the online gaming experience better? All I can think of is cross game chat. It seems you are just applying free games and a lower msrp as enough to say that the PSN (on PS4) gaming experience is better.

    Microsoft?

    New matchmaking system (smart match)/party scout

    New reputation system

    Adopted a higher quality codec to improve voice communications online.

    300K servers to ensure live runs smoothly with varying loads.

    Offers dedicated servers to devs that want it for their games. (but don't want to do it themselves)

    Not specifically related to online gaming, but they improved (reduced) the latency of the wireless controller compared to the one use by the 360. (and allow for wired signal operation with the appropriate usb cable)

    In the console network settings (http://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-o...twork-settings), you can get rather detailed information about your network connection to see any shortcomings know what needs to be changed/improved.

    All of this seems pretty substantial to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MATRIX 2 View Post
    Except laptops disprove this. Typically the smaller you go/thinner the chassis is, the hotter the laptop gets. It is quite uncommon to have a slim laptop that runs cool. (HW temps and to the touch (case temps))
    of course. but smaller things produce less heat overall and are usually less power consuming. of course the bigger the case is, the easier it is to dissipate heat but that's not what i was talking about. all i'm saying is, the smaller the more efficient in power.

    "you can have something small that can last longer, stay quieter and be more efficient. "

    Yeah, but that is more difficult. It requires more effort and more money to be done properly compared to a larger design. Why bother with that hassle? It is a console, sits under/next to your tv and likely isn't moved around a lot?
    yup, that's essentially what i was saying, it requires more effort and money...how did this argument start to begin with? lol. because you're agreeing with me here.

    oh you're saying why bother? because it's more efficient! and the way technology should go! are we really ok with technology staying bulky? to each their own i guess. i like nintendo consoles solely for this reason. low power consumption.

    "the article "assumes" that this is the reason for the big design, it doesn't provide evidence."

    Well it's the best we have until somebody interviews the X1 designers and asked them why the console is so large? And anandtech is basically the be all end all of tech sites, so I wouldn't just brush off his views so quickly.
    i'm not saying he doesn't have a valid point but he's assuming that. i don't care how credible the source is, if you're not going to at least give some sort of evidence, it's not good enough, since generally a bigger design also means more heat and more power consumption thus it should be less quiet, not more. i could see if the casing is used only for the air to travel but if you look at the design, it's pretty much filling the entire casing so none of what anand says makes sense.

    The APU/RAM/ communication chipsets do matter. (regarding performance and energy efficiency for example) If you read the anandtech article, the apu/esram size issue was specifically mentioned. I'd guess the board was designed by AMD, with input from sony and TSMC (the manufacturer, I believe). FYI, Cerny stated that while he picked the hardware specs, he had no say/knowledge of the case design/layout until it was unveiled to the public.
    until it was revealed to the public? lol wow, that must be interesting. that doesn't sound true to me but sure.

    he picked how he wanted it, he didn't actually design it.

    The X1 blu ray drive was designed by Philips (European) and Lite-on (Taiwanese) so no Japanese blu-ray drive there. Not sure about the PS4 since I couldn't find any pictures of the stickers on the drive (if there are any). Sony did design the PS4 powersupply, which makes sense since they has a special process they used with the ps3 to make it smaller (interesting how the PS4 PSU is rated for less power (250W, vs 380 for launch PS3's) yet seems to be larger.
    they all seem to have a similar strategy except china. now, china definitely has improved with certain things but i don't like to usually include china because they also tend to have cheap quality stuff...likely because they tend to make just about everything out there and it depends on what the budget is. so technically all oriental countries i'd say except china in some ways.

    like hyundai, a very excellent korean brand and at the moment, i like it more (including the KIA) because they haven't been americanized yet like the Toyota was (not sure if they have now improved but their quality went down the $#@!ter around 2007).

    And yes the anantech article was a general reference, for specifics (on the internal hardware, for identification) you need to look at the console teardowns.

    Well Japan had to most of that out of necessity. Not to mention they have had an interesting history in the past ~150 years.
    and that doesn't change the fact that they have done an excellent job. probably edging out the rest of the world, except maybe Germany. Love German tech.

    Point is they had to basically rebuild their society after WWII which helped put them on the path to modernization. In the 80's and 90's they used to be a significant presence various fields, especially relating to technology/consumer electronics. But that has changed now. Korean/Taiwanese/Chinese tend to do those things now, with Japanese companies having a significantly reduced presence with not much (if any) advantages over their Korean/Chinese/Taiwanese counterparts.. They tend to focus on bigger things like automobiles, trains, buildings/structures, construction equipment/heavy machinery ect.
    that's true, it was only time before the rest caught up with them. but they tend to follow similar corporate cultures and ideas when it comes to improvements.

    As for the game consoles thing, you realize that Sony brought in an outsider (who is western) and a software guy to design/choose the hardware of their next playstation. A software guy, not a hardware engineer. Compare this to Microsoft which is primarily a software company. Do you see where I'm going with this?
    i don't know what that has to do with what we're talking about. they chose what they wanted and how they wanted it, the actual engineering is still done by Sony's HQ. i'm not trying to knock at americans, americans have done an amazing job with technology, i mean, they built the first semiconductor for the love of God. A lot of new and world-changing innovations have come from the west, my point is that there are certain things that the west excel at and some that the east excel at and we just happen to be talking about what they excel at.

    No, you are dismissing other asians too quickly. Japan has lost a significant amount of their edge over other asian countries regarding consumer electronic. Back in the 80's/90's Japanese consumer electronics were among the best (if not the best) in the world. They didn't really have any foreign competition (for the most part) and nearly everything they produced was a quality product that typically was ahead of non Japanese consumer electronics in certain ways. That is no longer the case. Korea has 2 major powerhouse corporations, Samsung and LG. They design/manufacture a lot of consumer electronics and the hardware inside of them. And the Taiwanese/Chinese are right their with them (though with most companies being smaller than samsung/LG) Japanese companies don't really offer much in those areas these days.
    i agree with that. i was merely pointing out china's certain standards or lack thereof.

    Your car analogy is also flawed. First the F350 is great for what it was built for, the smart car (which isn't even Japanese (should have used the scion iq as an example) sucks (also applies to the scion iq) for what it was built for.
    lol it was just an analogy. i know the smart car was made by the europeans. trust me, i love german tech. my point was that when it comes to american technology, it always tends to be big and bulky whereas japanese are obsessed with continuous improvement. they don't sit down and say, yea that's the best we can do.

    Also you aren't figuring in perspective into the philosophy of a Japanese company vs, say a western one. japan is a small country with a large (but shrinking population). A lot of people live in dense cities, and the cost of living can be rather expensive in japan (at least in the major cities). So based off of this, Japanese companies inherently try to make small/compact and efficient products because that is what they need to do to be successful in the Japanese market. They then try to extrapolate these products to non Japanese markets. In the US, we don't have these inherent limitations, so making the smallest/most compact product isn't necessarily what first comes to mind when an American company creates a product. If we faced the same constraints as Japan, I think we would be very competitive with the products we put out. (also remember, Americans are bigger than Japanese people (and I'm not even talking about weight/obesity), mostly height/body structure)
    lol ok but their tech has been a lot more reliable, which was the point being made here. let's say for the sake of argument that somehow americans don't have to worry about reliability due to having more land...ok, point? that doesn't make me want to cut them some slack still, i'm going to buy what is good and what lasts longer and is better quality to begin with.

    Also do you really think that kinect is going to reserve 10% of the gpu for in perpetuity for this generation with no reductions made as the software can be improved/made more efficient? (regarding resources)
    it's not just the Kinect, the snap feature is taking up a lot of it i'm sure because they say OS/Kinect...i don't know what else it would be other than the snap feature as that would require GPU to display but either way, they said the OS also takes it up. sure, they will release some of those resources but people keep forgetting that it's the X1 that's keeping all these resources away from games that PS4 is actually going out of its way to give to the games...there's a huge difference there in the way they work albeit being similar at the core.

    Honestly I believe the launch title issues are pretty much due to limited time with final hardware and poor sdk's/dev tools from MS leading up to launch. You should know that it is foolish to make any definitive conclusions now since things can change quite a bit from launch. (based on what we saw with the PS3, with your line of thinking the PS3 would be destined to suffer for the entire generation, which wasn't what happened)
    it suffered pretty much the entire generation when it came to multiplats and it also suffered in general with development. it was a horrible idea to go the way Sony did. It seems like MS is $#@!ing it up equally as much as Sony did with their all-in-one plan, it's not good for gaming, maybe good for casuals but not for gamers.

    and as far as the tools and limited time...ok, maybe but not what IW said, they specifically said they had no problem with time, tools or the hardware.

    Now I can't say which way devs will go: whether X1/PS4 games will run at the same resolution (1080p) and the PS4 version has better effects, textures, ect. or that PS4 games are 1080p native and X1 games are scaled up from ~1600 X 900 to 1080p but aside from the resolution difference the games would be identical.

    But again, it would be foolish to make any definitive conclusions now. We know that near the end of the generation, PS3 games basically had identical performance to 360 games. I don't see why that can't be the case this generation.
    no it's not foolish to come to a fair conclusion. so far we know, the reason PS3 even came close to the 360 and sometimes did better was because it did have a lot of raw power to spare. X1 does not. i can conclude right now (as i did months earlier) that nothing about the X1 design, on paper, even counting its max theoretical (not even real world performance) even without taking into account its design that is for apps and games (whereas PS4 is only for games), it still should not be able to come to par with the PS4 in multiplatform games. not unless the game was just not ambitious to begin with or the developer just didn't set the bar high.

    so if you have this hope that it will repeat what the PS3 did against the 360? i wouldn't count on it.

    Also we have conflicting dev opinions:

    http://www.psu.com/a021823/The-Witch...it-more-compli
    his points were stupid. the only thing i could agree with was the DirectX/API, that's about it. everything else is where the PS4 is being more similar to PC, multiple devs have confirmed this, one even said that they had a PC game running on it within a month by 4 guys working on it.

    Did you carefully read my post. Because I made 2 major statements. The first was an X1 with kinect at ~$450 compared to a PS4 with the camera at ~$460. That basically shuts up whoever said that PS4 + camera was cheaper than the X1 with kinect and treated the two as being equivalent. (when we all know that nothing compares to kinect from Sony/Nintendo) That will make a bit if a difference, especially when the bigger titles start to drop After E3 2014, but that is not the critical point. The critical point is when the X1 with kinect is equal to the price of a standalone PS4, whether that is at $399, $349, or possibly some other price point. As I said, I don't really see anything outside of PS4 exclusives that is compelling enough by itself to make a difference.
    if you think X1 will ever hit a PS4's price point, you're dreaming. no one cares what the price point is of a bundle, because they aren't the ones that sell the most. People usually go for the bare bones. they are going to look at PS4 at its lowest price, just like they looked at the 360 being cheaper due to its arcade/core SKU.

    and honestly, i would not expect much from kinect 2 in video games, maybe with apps and stuff which is cool and i think still worth it but it doesn't seem like they're going to pursue games like i had hoped.

    That depends on what you are looking for a service to offer. If you want "free" games then yes, PSN is currently better than XBL Gold. If you want the best service for online gaming, XBL is still king.
    really? based on what? lol. is BF4 better on X1 due to Live? Please, do tell.

    Also, no matter how you cut it, for ps3 owners who came from a free online experience to a paid PS4 online experience, any cost is a downside.
    why lol. you get dedicated server support, you get free games, you get beta and discounts. i'm not saying that i would pay for it, if online was free because i don't have time for stuff like that but i do understand that moving forward, we need to pay for dedicated servers and you can't get those for free, not ever. the only time anyone has ever had them free was with SOCOM on PS2/PS3 and BF3 on 360/PS3 (on BF3, you still had to buy your own, if you wanted one, like 70 bucks for 3 months or something, maybe 6). i don't get your point.

    I like and respect you as a member of this forum, but you need to get off your high horse. Arrogance is not a beneficial trait.

    IIRC, you base your console purchases off of which console is more "powerful" So you originally got an xbox over the PS2/gamecube. Which made sense based off of that philosophy.

    However, you then bought a PS3 over a 360. And no matter what the direhard fans say about a few exclusives, for the vast majority of games (talking about multiplats here) the 360 provided a better experience over the PS3 specifically regarding graphical fidelity and performance. (not talking about anything else here like the online services, controllers, even bugs/glitches ect. Just graphical fidelity and game performance).
    lol, you mean provided better performance...you can't say anything about the experience. are you telling me that my experience with PS3 multiplats was horrible due to some missing grass? I wouldn't be throwing that word out there like that. yes, performance wasn't as good but really, it wasn't a big deal and i didn't even notice it.

    I would be shocked if MS didn't have a specific/detailed plan on reducing X1 manufacturing costs as fast as possible (or in a timely manner at the very least) to minimize hardware cost/manufacturing losses and maximize profitability. I'm not going to worry about it now when the consoles have just launched. RROD was a much bigger issue that was dealt with. MS may have made some mistakes with the X1, but I don't believe that this is one of them.
    lol you think MS is going to do a better job than Sony? LOL ok bruh. let's forget that Sony is a hardware company and that's practically what saved them last generation. MS would not have been able to compete with a blu-ray stuck in there. but yea, they will magically bring down the price faster than Sony. heck even if they did, their profit margins won't be nearly as good as Sony's. I could see Sony not budging as long as they were selling more and at a profit at some point.

    you have to understand that MS has bigger plans, they're not worried about games anymore.

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    I'll gladly pay for the Xb1....when it's at the price and hardware option I prefer. I want a Kinectless model at around $350. I will not pay premium prices for gimped hardware.


    I don't really need a water cooler/remote control as of right now.

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    I needed to take a few days break from serious posting, now I'm back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    of course. but smaller things produce less heat overall and are usually less power consuming. of course the bigger the case is, the easier it is to dissipate heat but that's not what i was talking about. all i'm saying is, the smaller the more efficient in power.
    Not sure what exactly you are trying to say, but implying just because something is smaller, it uses less energy, is false. Just look at the testing done by digital foundry, arstechnicia and anandtech to see the the X1 uses less energy for a given task than the PS4.

    yup, that's essentially what i was saying, it requires more effort and money...how did this argument start to begin with? lol. because you're agreeing with me here.

    oh you're saying why bother? because it's more efficient! and the way technology should go! are we really ok with technology staying bulky? to each their own i guess. i like nintendo consoles solely for this reason. low power consumption.
    Are you the kind of guy that complains about the typical desktop size? Honestly, It's a console. I don't care about the size (weight would be more important to me). I expect certain consumer electronics to be of a certain size, I don't want everything shrunk down to as small a size as possible.

    Efficiency take place inside the console casing, which is fine with me.



    i'm not saying he doesn't have a valid point but he's assuming that. i don't care how credible the source is, if you're not going to at least give some sort of evidence, it's not good enough, since generally a bigger design also means more heat and more power consumption thus it should be less quiet, not more. i could see if the casing is used only for the air to travel but if you look at the design, it's pretty much filling the entire casing so none of what anand says makes sense.
    Again, you aren't making much sense. Based on the reviews done by the aforementioned sites, the X1 uses less energy than the ps4 and is quieter. Casing is larger to accommodate the larger Heatsink/Fan. (among other things) If you want more detailed information about the X1 design, I suggest you email major nelson and and ask him to interview the designer. (I remember the 360 designer being interview by a designer by some website/entity.)

    until it was revealed to the public? lol wow, that must be interesting. that doesn't sound true to me but sure.

    he picked how he wanted it, he didn't actually design it.
    http://www.theverge.com/2013/8/22/46...-gamescom-2013



    they all seem to have a similar strategy except china. now, china definitely has improved with certain things but i don't like to usually include china because they also tend to have cheap quality stuff...likely because they tend to make just about everything out there and it depends on what the budget is. so technically all oriental countries i'd say except china in some ways.

    like hyundai, a very excellent korean brand and at the moment, i like it more (including the KIA) because they haven't been americanized yet like the Toyota was (not sure if they have now improved but their quality went down the $#@!ter around 2007).
    Quality constantly fluctuates depending on the brand and model. And while the Korean cars look good on the surface, I'm not convinced that they will hold up well over time.



    and that doesn't change the fact that they have done an excellent job. probably edging out the rest of the world, except maybe Germany. Love German tech.
    Not saying that it does, but they got where they are today due to special circumstances. And american tech/innovation is rather underrated, nobody really talks about it so people don't know about it.

    German tech tends to be overrated. (depending on complexity)

    that's true, it was only time before the rest caught up with them. but they tend to follow similar corporate cultures and ideas when it comes to improvements.

    i don't know what that has to do with what we're talking about. they chose what they wanted and how they wanted it, the actual engineering is still done by Sony's HQ. i'm not trying to knock at americans, americans have done an amazing job with technology, i mean, they built the first semiconductor for the love of God. A lot of new and world-changing innovations have come from the west, my point is that there are certain things that the west excel at and some that the east excel at and we just happen to be talking about what they excel at.
    They had to bring in a software guy (and an outsider (westerner) at that) to design their hardware for it to be powerful and developer friendly. If they just went with a normal hardware engineer, we would have likely had a repeat of what happened with the PS3. MS knows these things because they are primarily a software company, so they know what dev's need/want to do great things with the hardware. This is an inherent advantage for them


    i agree with that. i was merely pointing out china's certain standards or lack thereof.
    China builds things to pricepoints, it is up to the contractor to ensure the quality of the product. (look at apple for example)

    lol it was just an analogy. i know the smart car was made by the europeans. trust me, i love german tech. my point was that when it comes to american technology, it always tends to be big and bulky whereas japanese are obsessed with continuous improvement. they don't sit down and say, yea that's the best we can do.
    You are missing the point. The F350 is pretty well suited to its intended use. So it is large and bulky as a pickup should be. regarding compact vehicles, just look at the ford fiesta/focus. They are so good, they are among the top selling cars in Europe. You say Americans can't make small things (or continuously improve existing designs), when that is clearly false. I can go on an on with the examples if you want me to.

    lol ok but their tech has been a lot more reliable, which was the point being made here. let's say for the sake of argument that somehow americans don't have to worry about reliability due to having more land...ok, point? that doesn't make me want to cut them some slack still, i'm going to buy what is good and what lasts longer and is better quality to begin with.
    Where did reliability come into the conversation? I was talking about design philosophies regarding size/efficiency, not reliability. If an american company wants to, they can make products just as reliably (if not more so) than anybody else.



    it's not just the Kinect, the snap feature is taking up a lot of it i'm sure because they say OS/Kinect...i don't know what else it would be other than the snap feature as that would require GPU to display but either way, they said the OS also takes it up. sure, they will release some of those resources but people keep forgetting that it's the X1 that's keeping all these resources away from games that PS4 is actually going out of its way to give to the games...there's a huge difference there in the way they work albeit being similar at the core.
    MS wants to ensure that Kinect/the OS can function well under any circumstance, so they made power reservations. Sony did the same thing, but for ambiguous potential future updates/improvements, not necessarily what they have now. I wouldn't be surprised if sony is willing to concede OS performance to gaming performance. Pretty sure MS will not do that since having the OS/kinect work well is an essential part of the X1/X1 experience.

    it suffered pretty much the entire generation when it came to multiplats and it also suffered in general with development. it was a horrible idea to go the way Sony did. It seems like MS is $#@!ing it up equally as much as Sony did with their all-in-one plan, it's not good for gaming, maybe good for casuals but not for gamers.

    and as far as the tools and limited time...ok, maybe but not what IW said, they specifically said they had no problem with time, tools or the hardware.
    Yeah, but the PS3 design was inherently bad for development. The PS4/X1 designs are fairly similar, the main issue for the X1 is the proper utilization of the ESRAM. This is an issue that should be resolved within the first year or so.

    And are we really going to give any credence to IW? They must be the laziest developers on the planet. Let me know when good devs like Bioware, Rockstar, ect. weigh in.

    no it's not foolish to come to a fair conclusion. so far we know, the reason PS3 even came close to the 360 and sometimes did better was because it did have a lot of raw power to spare. X1 does not. i can conclude right now (as i did months earlier) that nothing about the X1 design, on paper, even counting its max theoretical (not even real world performance) even without taking into account its design that is for apps and games (whereas PS4 is only for games), it still should not be able to come to par with the PS4 in multiplatform games. not unless the game was just not ambitious to begin with or the developer just didn't set the bar high.
    Um, no the PS3 did not have power to spare. It had a maddeningly complex architecture that locked away its power. Developers had to work to extract everything they could out of the hardware because of its poor design. I think you will be surprised about how devs will work with the X1 hardware. The platform differences with multiplats will shrink with time, just as they did with the PS3 and 360.
    so if you have this hope that it will repeat what the PS3 did against the 360? i wouldn't count on it.

    his points were stupid. the only thing i could agree with was the DirectX/API, that's about it. everything else is where the PS4 is being more similar to PC, multiple devs have confirmed this, one even said that they had a PC game running on it within a month by 4 guys working on it.
    Again, that is just one dev's opinion. Everybody has a different take, but we won't get proper commentary until we are further in to this generation. (with more complex next gen only games)

    if you think X1 will ever hit a PS4's price point, you're dreaming. no one cares what the price point is of a bundle, because they aren't the ones that sell the most. People usually go for the bare bones. they are going to look at PS4 at its lowest price, just like they looked at the 360 being cheaper due to its arcade/core SKU.



    and honestly, i would not expect much from kinect 2 in video games, maybe with apps and stuff which is cool and i think still worth it but it doesn't seem like they're going to pursue games like i had hoped.
    I don't see any reason that the X1 will not match the PS4's price point. As I've said earlier, I'm sure MS had an plan to quickly reduce hardware/manufacturing costs, which will allow for price drops more quickly. MS also has deep pockets to take losses on the hardware if needed to make the pricing equal. I don't know where you came up with bundles from, I didn't say anything about them.

    Sony isn't in the same financial position as MS, so they had to keep the PS3 at a certain pricepoint, unlike MS who could afford to price sku's much lower. That is a poor example for you to use.

    Also it is foolish to judge kinect when we are not even 1 month from the console launch. Give it a few years before saying things like that. Hell we won't even drop previous gen console support for another year or 2 for most games.

    really? based on what? lol. is BF4 better on X1 due to Live? Please, do tell.
    See my response to Vulgotha

    [quote]why lol. you get dedicated server support, you get free games, you get beta and discounts. i'm not saying that i would pay for it, if online was free because i don't have time for stuff like that but i do understand that moving forward, we need to pay for dedicated servers and you can't get those for free, not ever. the only time anyone has ever had them free was with SOCOM on PS2/PS3 and BF3 on 360/PS3 (on BF3, you still had to buy your own, if you wanted one, like 70 bucks for 3 months or something, maybe 6). i don't get your point. [quote]

    Because it costs money now, when it was free on the PS3? People complained about paying for online gaming on the xbox. They tended to say that it was something done only occasionally so why should they pay a yearly/monthly fee for something they wouldn't use that much. So PSN on the PS3 was good for them in that way. That is no longer the case for the PS4. So what if you get free games with the sub to PS+ (assuming the games offered even appeal to you), people just wanted to play online for free. Same thing for dedicated servers, not everyone cares for them. A lot of people made a big deal of this in the Sony E3 thread, but changes positions shortly after for whatever reasons. Only a handful were principled to stick with their original viewpoint on the issue.

    lol, you mean provided better performance...you can't say anything about the experience. are you telling me that my experience with PS3 multiplats was horrible due to some missing grass? I wouldn't be throwing that word out there like that. yes, performance wasn't as good but really, it wasn't a big deal and i didn't even notice it.
    You can try any minimize the issue all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. Hell, if pachter even complained about it, you know it was an issue.


    lol you think MS is going to do a better job than Sony? LOL ok bruh. let's forget that Sony is a hardware company and that's practically what saved them last generation. MS would not have been able to compete with a blu-ray stuck in there. but yea, they will magically bring down the price faster than Sony. heck even if they did, their profit margins won't be nearly as good as Sony's. I could see Sony not budging as long as they were selling more and at a profit at some point.

    you have to understand that MS has bigger plans, they're not worried about games anymore.
    Again, sony is in a much worse financial position compared to microsoft. They can't afford to be more aggressive. I think that with their initial advantages with the PS4, the will play it safe, and become complacent. I already put out a basic roadmap for pricing predictions.

    You have to understand that MS's bigger plans are nothing without gamers. Gamers are what determine whether a console is viable. So they need to be satisfied with the console and its offerings. Mainstream doesn't factor in until these consoles hit the $299 price point. (it's the new $199) MS is trying to appeal to everybody at once. Initially they will have some struggles with that approach, but they will only improve with time.

    Sony on the other hand seems confused to me. They took the "it only does everything" approach with the ps3. Then they did the "it only does gaming" approach with the ps4. That leaves me scratching my head?

    The PS4 is what the PS3 should have been, and the PS3 is what the PS4 should have been (but obviously with the better (developer friendly) hardware architecture.

    Sony may do fine with traditional gamers, but it is no longer 2006 anymore. Consoles must compete against many other consumer electronics/services than they did back then. And a gaming only console isn't going to do anything to broaden the userbase of the PS4. And sony doesn't seem to have put much into place for non gaming options on the PS4, to be better prepared to move into the following generation.

    It seems like sony is setting itself for a Pyrrhic victory, while MS will end up doing the opposite of that.

    So in the end, everybody wins and loses.

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    That's not even relevant. A task can take more or less energy depending on what it's doing. Unless they were testing the ability to play blu-ray movies for instance, it would be pointless to see how much energy a task takes on the PS4 vs X1.

    and like i said, that's still not relevant because I'm speaking about the total power the console takes in order to run, i'm not talking about one task.
    You are showing your ignorance now. Did you even read those reviews/articles on those websites? Because that is exactly what they did. Tested the system at idle, playing back blu ray discs, playing games and various other tasks like installing games and downloading content from the online stores.

    So I don't see hoe your comment is even relevant since you don't seem to have even read those articles.



    1) It's more difficult to make an efficient console with a big casing because you need bigger fans to dissipate the heat, not to mention it will take longer to do that as well.
    2) It's not about what you expect or like, it's about what people like in general. and people like things to be smaller, or we wouldn't have small computers in our hands today, we wouldn't have laptops/tablets taking over desktops.
    3) I don't complain about the size of a desktop because I know there are reasons why desktops are big and they are big for a good reason. But they have a specific reason to exist and so this tangent doesn't always apply to every situation.

    1: No it isn't. Bigger fans are more efficient. They can move more air while operating at lower rpm. Cramming hardware into a smaller case just makes all the components hotter and causes the smaller cooling system to have to work harder to dissipate the heat.

    2: Guess what, laptops haven't really decreased in size (overall dimensions) They have just made them thinner/lighter. Neither have desktops. And the only reason why laptops are outselling desktops is because they are portable while desktops are not. If what you said was true, why has it not occurred in other areas? Our cars have become heavier and larger. Our hoses have increased in size. It goes on and on. Point is a console is a typically stationary device that sits somewhere around your tv. What need is there for it to be smaller when various other HT components haven't decreased in size either?

    3: Are you saying that there aren't any valid reason why the X1 is big?


    Where does it say that X1 uses less energy and is quieter than the PS4? Anand assumed that, he didn't say it was in actuality. There's no reason why a big box with a big motherboard and fan should take less energy and be more quiet. the only way it's possible for it to take less energy is if it's just really weak because generally bigger electronic systems require more power. i don't get why it would be more quiet, unless Sony completely dropped the ball with that...a smaller fan means less noise.
    Go read the digital foundry, anandtech and ars technicia articles on the X1/PS4 hardware. The data is there. X1 uses less energy in all but one scenario. X1 is quieter during gaming.


    I don't think you get it. I know he "designed" the architecture, meaning, where everything should be and what it should consist of...he didn't actually sit down and design the chips and the motherboard. there's no possible way that one person would be able to do this anyway, it would require hundreds of engineers to overcome such task.
    I didn't say he designed the "chips". That link was referencing that he didn't know what the casing looked like until the PS4 casing was revealed to the public.

    just going by what the press has been saying. although after driving the latest toyota cars, i'm willing to give other brands a try. they still would have more credibility than most american cars. though i would not mind one of those smaller ford cards.
    The press only focuses on initial quality/impressions. They aren't going back and seeing how these cars hold up 10, 15+ years down the line. There are companies that do studies about that, and for the models years that are that old, korean cars are still lacking. I don't have much faith that these newer models will improve to the level of top japanese cars.


    i don't know or care why it matters what special circumstances there were...if you think I think of Japanese as some super race, i don't lol. I'm just saying that they make $#@! good and i love their $#@!. there are some things i do like about american manufacturers but they're not usually electronics and usually things other countries have either not tackled or i don't know about. like the waterpik. but i bet that was built in china too and designed here in the states.
    It seemed like you did.

    i donno man, i just bought a bruder truck for my son and i'm in awe how $#@!ing beautiful this big toy is. if you can talk about things that are overrated by them, i'm willing to listen.
    Just look at the electrical systems on german cars. (or german electronics in general) They just can't seem to nail it down. Compared to there Japanese counterparts, they do an abysmal job. It's odd because the germans used to be fairly good at that up till the 90's after which everything went to hell.


    ok a few problems there, yes, i agree that they needed an american engineer's input to make an awesome console, i already mentioned that many times. but by "normal engineer", do you mean "super crazy hardcore engineer"? because that's what ken was, just that he was a little too nerdy and didn't get anything outside of engineering, thus the brilliant design of PS3 was not right for what it was supposed to be for.
    I mean a decent hardware engineer that doesn't really take into account what is good for software developers/development. Just focuses on hardware without giving any thought to how the developers will work on the hardware and program for it.

    yup.
    lol you're speaking about "relative" improvements, of course everyone makes improvements. my point is that the japanese are obsessed with it. turn 10 vs PD is a perfect example of how far they like to take it. also the F350 vs smart car, you had completely missed my point there too. i wasn't saying that they aren't capable, it was to show that they wouldn't think of going smaller first, americans generally like to just go ahead and build it and then worry about efficiency later. that's how most other manufacturers/designers are as well, not just americans.

    X1 vs PS4 is another great example, MS doesn't give a crap about size and the thing is bigger than their previous OG console, while Sony has gone ahead and made it smaller than their previous console's slim design, that's a huge contrast in the way they do things. this was exactly my point and why I dislike american manufacturers/designers/engineers in general. Apple is definitely an outlier.
    There is no point in making something like an F350 smaller, doing so would be detrimental to the purpose of the vehicle. For normal passenger vehicles you have to account for the fact that americans are bigger than the typical japanes individual and that americans tend to drive a lot more in various kinds of terrain and weather conditions. So vehicles have to be larger and more powerful to deal with that kind of use. Kei cars would never work in the US.

    Also you are assuming that americans can't be efficient with their larger designs. I'm sure Ford made sure their F350 was relatively fuel efficient and versatile in its capabilities regarding its size. Whereas you have a vehicle like the Scion iQ which sucks regarding its performance/fuel efficiency compared to larger/heavier cars.

    You seem to be making the mistake of equating efficiency to size, even though that is just one of many ways something can be efficient.

    With the X1, I'm sure MS didn't want to take any chances with the hardware so they released a large console that could accommodate a cooling system that didn't make compromises on performance. Better than trying to make a smaller system that had a cooling system that did compromise on performance. Or would you prefer RROD 2.0 on the X1?

    yea, i brought in reliability because i was somehow cutting slack for making things bigger and less efficient because americans have bigger lands (according to you). so i was saying, ok, fine but at least make it more reliable. so we have japanese products that are not only smaller, they are more efficient and they're more reliable.

    you think they can make it more reliable or just as good? LOL. i don't think you've ever been in the manufacturing side of things, that's not possible yet with the way people work here vs how they work over there. there's a "lot", i mean, "a lot" to learn before americans can catch up with the japanese or even the rest of the asian countries. i know a local company that goes by the name of TI and they couldn't ever come close to their asian counterparts in human errors...you know what they did? they stopped counting for certain things that hurt the americans with their reliability points lol, then they were almost par!

    if we were to take what you say, as fact then you're implying that they're lazy...because you can only be one or the other, lazy or not as good. because we're not seeing this reliability that you feel that they can and just aren't doing it for some reason. it takes effort.
    You are basing your point on the actions of 1 company (by the way, just as an example, TI owns the graphing calculator market, even against its japanese competitors).

    It is all about demand and cost. If there is a demand for reliability and people are willing to pay the cost, then american companies will make such a product. If there is not, then they have no reason to. There are plenty of industries (mostly commercial) where you can see this.

    correction, they can't have those OS functions and kinect integration without taking some power reservation. it's done through the software.

    no, sony did not do the same thing, in fact, sony designed their console to help with the gaming performance, not lessen it. the only thing they did that could otherwise be used for games is the reservation which we don't know what for but i personally think it would be for instant resume as that would take up a lot of RAM and for us to be able to access all of the OS during game means that there's no "in-game OS", it's all being done on the fully fledged one, which would also take up a lot of RAM but would give you faster access to the OS. so the part where you mention that Sony would let the OS performance concede to the gaming performance, don't see evidence to this yet.
    Time will tell, but if sony has to choose I think they will sacrifice OS performance to make the games run more smoothly. And if what you say happens to be true, Sony has reserved a lot of memory for that purpose. Possibly too much.

    lol you think it was the ESRAM? there's nothing that would hint towards that. also, ESRAM is an ongoing problem, it's not a problem that if you fix it once, that it will be gone forever. think of it like the split RAM PS3 had. it's always going to be a bottleneck.

    those good devs are actually going to target their games to the point where you will likely see much bigger differences between the two consoles. especially DICE.

    PS4 and X1 are similar in the fact that they both sport a similar CPU part of the APU but that's where the similarities end. we've talked about this over and over again so i'll leave you with google for that. there's a reason PS4 is being touted as easy to develop for and X1 is not.
    What else is there that is problematic? Without the efficient use of esram, then dvelopers will be hampered by the lower bandwidth DDR3 which result in poor performance. This issue will be resolved with time (as developers get more experience) and better dev tools from microsoft. It isn't going to persist throughout the entire generation (at least in the same way). The problem with the ps3 wasn't the split memory but the cell architecture.

    I doubt the performance difference will get larger. Based on what I've read over the past couple of weeks it looks like resolution will be the main difference (1600 X 900 vs 1920 X 1080) with everything else being the same.

    The PS4 is touted to be easier to develop for because it is just like a PC. So there is no mystery there. But also because the developer tools have been lacking for the X1.

    For example looking at the 360 and ps3, the 360 was said to be easier to develop for compared to the ps3. Now does that mean that the 360 was easy to develop for by itself, compared to nothing else? Not necessarily, just that any difficulties encountered with the 360 architecture were not as big of a deal compared to the difficulties encountered with the ps3.

    I believe that that is the issue with the X1, it isn't a poor architecture to develop for, it just isn't as simple as the PS4's mostly regarding the factors I reference earlier.



    are you kidding me? LOL. wow. you really believe that? you really think the gap will disappear over time? you think PS4 is just going to sit there and take it up the pooper? Keep dreaming. I'm not even going to waste my time explaining why you shouldn't even use PS3 and 360 as an example. but i'll tell you one thing, X1 is like the PS3 of this generation but less powerful, to put it simply.

    no matrix, i think you will be surprised how good the games on PS4 will look in a year or two over the X1.
    Yes as developers get more experience with the X1 and dev tools improve, the gap will shrink. There is nothing else holding them back (like the cell architecture did with the ps3). I mostly expect any difference to be limited to resolution and not much else going forward.


    what? lol. there have been numerous reports by developers on this topic, it's not just one developer, it's just one developer that disagreed with them and even he only said "slightly" because he would not be able to BS more on it without look like an idiot.
    I was talking about that dev's comment, it was just his opinion, nothing definitive. But are you really going to tell me that we aren't going to get better commentary once developers are free to focus on the current gen platforms exclusively and can stop bothering with the 360/ps3? So far we have a pitiful selection of developers (with games to show) who have commented on this issue. Lets see how things are 1-2 years down the road. I expect things will change for the better.

    that's all i hear from Xbox fans, MS has deep pockets, MS has deep pockets. were you also the one that said that Xbox One will be more powerful because MS has deep pockets? could've sworn it was either you or sub...maybe mynd. not sure. i don't keep track.

    none of you (and i'm sorry i will sound like an elitist ass here) know how business works so let's leave it at that. if MS having deep pockets mattered, we wouldn't have seen a $100 higher console to begin with, we wouldn't have seen a weaker console, we would have seen MS buying more studios and more important studios, we would've seen them focus less on casuals and more on gamers. all signs point towards MS being a much more cautious company moving forward. they have practically left the playing field. no i don't think their deep pockets are going to matter because it's an international company and that's not all they do, it is not a joke, the shareholders have a stake in it. they aren't going to let MS take a hit the entire generation just to gain market share for games they aren't producing.

    On top of that, MS is not a hardware company, why do people always ignore that? they will never be able to compete Sony in hardware costs. If Sony did not have a blu-ray player fitted inside the PS3, they would've easily matched the arcade 360 with all it already boasts. Again, we would've seen the big pockets of MS in the past decade if they had them.

    Sony has spent more on gaming and more on its hardware than MS ever did and they gave you options where they lost on peripherals, whereas MS charged you 2-3x more than the market to make their profits. That's the reality, what you think of is the imaginary world that doesn't exist.
    LOL. Where to start?

    First I never said anything about the X1 being more powerful because of deep pockets. At most I might have said that MS would have a bigger budget to spend on developing the X1. (which seems to be true considering they spent at least ~100 million just on improving the controller)

    Yes you do sound like an elitist because you go ahead man make several large assumptions about what the "deep pockets" should have done with no evidence to support such conclusions or that line of thought.

    MS isn't just going to piss away its money to do x or y just because they have the money to do so. They spent it in an intelligent and purposeful manner.

    What makes you think MS is going to lose money (overall) with what they are trying to do? Why wouldn't you think any mistakes (regarding development, production/manufacturing costs) made with the 360 would not be repeated with the X1? Why wouldn't you think that MS would attempt to minimize X1 hardware/manufacturing costs as fast as possible? (so they could become profitable on the hardware asap)

    I can go on and on.

    And its funny that you criticize me for saying the "deep pockets" line but then come back with the "sony is a hardware company" line. Really? And then go on about what could have been with the ps3 if it lacked the blu-ray drive. (Yet forget to account for the significant expense of the Cell, XDR memory and higher manufacturing costs)

    And yet for all of Sony's hardware experience, they were slower to break even/become profitable on the ps3 hardware compared to the 360 despite dumping the PS2 BC hardware rather quickly. How do you account for that (and please don't try and just stick it on the blu-ray drive).

    And out of all of that you come up with the line that MS is being the more cautious company? Despite sony reneging on what it attempted with the PS3 to make just a game box with the PS4? And MS doing much more with the X1 than making a game box which is what the 360 was. Sure, that makes total sense.

    Sony is moving backwards in their attempt to win back the gamers, it isn't going to put them in a better place in the long run.

    that's because the 360 was much cheaper to produce. not because they were willing to take a bigger hit. that's part of the reason they were able to make profits.
    Possibly, but they had other costs to account for as well, like what they spent to fix RROD systems. Also we don't know the profit margin of sony with later versions of the PS3, for all we know they could have dropped the price even further and still made a profit.

    it's silly to give something a few years when you're going to pay for it now. but that's from a gamer's perspective. as far as casuals, i think they will do wonderfully.
    The entire point of bundling it is to get developers to utilize it which will only be apparent in a few years once there is a decent number of consoles sold (sufficient userbase) and developers are focusing on current gen platforms. (not worrying about PS3/360 ports)

    And the future of Kinect looks a hell of a lot better than the PS4 camera. (I really wonder why sony even bothered making it)



    I read your respond to him. it doesn't change my question. What makes BF4 better on X1 than it is on PS4? i'd like some real examples here. Why do those things matter to the point that it would make one service better than the other?

    you do realize that X1 doesn't have 300k servers ready to be deployed, they would never even need anywhere close to that. Azure is not built for X1, thus it's not exclusively for X1, obviously it's to insure that they would never run out of servers but what people fail to realize is that it is an overkill and the only thing i've understood so far is that it's cheaper than other servers out there, for what it offers you.

    improved codec? so does the PS3 and i don't see why it wouldn't convert to PS4. now if you're saying that it's comparably better, i'd like some evidence. without comparison, there's no reason to bring it up.

    i don't know what you'd need to find out from network settings that you don't get from the status settings. i'd like an example of what it would do that is helpful. i have never found myself having trouble with PS3 settings. so while that may be substantial to you, it's really not a big deal to the rest.

    the controller's latency is better than its previous controller, ok? again, how well is it comparatively to the ps4 controller?

    i don't get the big deal behind matchmaking. i have never found that to be an issue, in fact, i'd rather they didn't mess with who they think i should be playing with and rather gave me random experiences. that's why i play online, for randomness, not because i want to be spoonfed.

    reputation system sounds cool but just by saying that, doesn't substantiate what's so good about it.
    Not all of the improvements will be apparent at launch. (and BF4 has quite a few issues, which need to be addressed before we can compare it properly)

    Regarding the servers, wouldn't it be a good thing that they have more than they currently need, to deal with future demand and make sure xbl can scale properly?

    Regarding the audio codec, I didn't see anything about sony saying they made improvements with theirs on the PS4. As for comparing the audio quality on the two services, the consoles haven't even been out for a month so you will have to wait a bit for proper comparisons to be made.

    More information from the network settings is never a bad thing, I'm sure there are a significant number of people that will appreciate it.

    Controller latency: My comments for the audio codec apply here as well

    regarding matchmaking and the rep system, I haven't heard much if any complaints about the system on the 360, but improvements are surely a good thing to ensure you have a good experience while playing online. (whether that means having a low latency game or being matched with people of similar skill levels, for example)

    lol this again. you do realize that some games will NOT be possible without dedicated servers. if Sony said, "ok, we're not going to charge for online play." Ubisoft is going to turn around and either cancel the Division for PS4, absorb the high costs of dedicated servers (which would be silly) or charge us for it anyway, a lot more than what Sony will for the entire year. let's say they absorb the costs, which would be the second time in history, next to BF3/BF4 and Sony's in-house exclusives, how many other devs will do the same? I don't think many will.

    there's no way Sony would "not" charge us for online moving forward. developers/publishers are ready to go the next step and bring gaming experiences that were once only possible on the PC. you can't do open-world games with thousands of players "without" dedicated servers.
    Who is to say what you said is the case? Why couldn't sony just increase the price of a PSN + sub. Or charge a separate (and lesser) fee just for online gameplay instead of mandating a ~$50 PSN+ subscription.

    Why wouldn't ubisoft run their own dedicated servers like they (and others) did for the 360/ps3? Charging people for dedicated servers likely wouldn't do anything to increase their game sales. And there is no way they are just going to blow off the PS4 with an installabase of several million by the time the game ships.

    Sony didn't have to charge for online, in the manner they did. They chose to do so. If they needed to charge so badly, then there is little reason for online gameplay to remain free on the PS3.

    you're using patcher as an example? hah. why not use users as an example? PS3 outsold 360 throughout most of its life cycle. software-wise, PS3 had no problem outselling the 360 in regions where PS3 was either close to par with the 360 or over it.

    yes, it was an issue but was it a big deal? Nope. are you going to say the same now that X1 has half the resolution in COD and BF4 having 50% more resolution on the PS4? thought so. it wasn't big enough of a deal to choose one console over the other. the only reason for me (and I'm positive, others as well) would be the lack of games.
    Why shouldn't I use Pachter, he has influence. (even his own show) Are you really comparing a resolution difference with launch games to games that wouldn't even play/run properly on the PS3 at any resolution?

    And are you really saying that just because the ps3 sold a comparable amount that this issue really isn't an issue? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot, advocating that Sony and game developers should be allowed to/get away with screwing gamers.

    what are you talking about? The have been way more aggressive than MS. They are giving you a console that is technically 50% more powerful AND it costs a $100 less!

    Even if you take out the Kinect and let's just assume that it would go for $200 if it came out as a stand-alone peripheral, you're still looking at a console that is barely touching what it should cost. I would still not pay $300 for just the X1 when you can have a PS4 for just a $100 more with its extra bells and whistles in performance.
    Sony did that because it had to. They needed to get away from the $500/600 pricepoints of the PS3. And they had lost a lot of their influence/userbase from the PS2 days. So they charged $399. That isn't being aggressive, that is doing what you must to survive. How well do you think the PS3 would dp priced at $500. Or If the X1 was $399. Not nearly as well.

    It's not about what you expect or like, it's about what people like in general.

    Sound familiar? Plenty of people would buy an X1 over a PS4 if it was $300 vs $399, despite any performance advantages Also did you not do that for the PS3 over the 360 for a performance deficit despite the additional money?

    Also there are plenty of cases where there better/more powerful products that are also cheaper than their competition but don't sell as well compared to their inferior competitors. (just look at how non apple products sell compared to their apple competition)


    MS is going to have trouble getting to the mainstream without making the core extremely happy. like they were with the 360. that is going to be their biggest challenge in their success.
    Um, didn't they do both with the 360? And it looks like they will do a better job with both groups on the X1 compared to the 360.

    you can't be an all-in-one console and be as developer friendly or easy to develop for against a console that is specifically designed for video games. there's no confusion there for me. all-in-one is not the way to go. even if that's where things are being forced to go.
    Yes you can. Microsoft may not have done it properly with the X1, but it can be done. You are in the minority. Consoles no longer have the upper hand when it comes to being the major entertainment/attention holding source. The world is not like it was back in 2005/2006, things have changed. There are many more distractions and competition for peoples time and attention regarding entertainment these days. Consoles need to do more if they want to do better with the mainstream. Don't expect Sony's approach to get them to crack 100 million in the ~6 years the PS4 will exist as the primary playstation console.

    the biggest advantage Sony has right now is that MS and a while back Nintendo, have both left the playing field. Now it's left all to Sony and it's Sony's job to convince the world that there's still time left for having just gaming consoles. It's going to be a difficult task because from what i'm seeing, a lot of casuals are in love with the Xbox One due to Kinect. this is going to be Sony's biggest problem. i think even if MS lost with their approach this time around by screwing up with their price point, they will do a better job moving foward and will be better prepared. whereas Sony will need to come up with something better (maybe VR?) and do their own thing...though i feel like Kinect is more simple and less geeky so it's more practical as of now.

    VR has a lot more potential though, especially if combined with other stuff...maybe kinect with VR would be perfect. I don't know. possible. if Sony wins, I don't think it will be a pyrrhic victory, i think they're going to win clean. it's just not going to work next time around...but then again, we thought PC was going to be dead by now and look at Valve going at it so anything is possible, what i do believe for sure is that the core suplly will continue to shrink during and especially after this generation.

    Ha. MS hasn't left the playing field, they have just broadened their approach. And there is no way Microsoft screwed up with their price point considering the PS3. The price issue will only matter in the beginning (1, maybe 2 years).

    And there is no way sony is going to do VR or anything else this gen. It would be destined to fail. (like the playstation camera seems to be) Sony is sticking with the game box approach, we will see how far that gets them.

    And I don't know who said PC gaming was dying, but they are crazy. It is changing, not dying (it never will). Also I think you forget to take into account that it poses a threat for the PS4 if steamboxes/ cheaper small form factor gaming desktops/laptops take off.

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    I already warned you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    I already warned you.




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    Quote Originally Posted by PS4freak View Post
    Holy hell! George R Martin couldn't compete with that post length!

    I might as well read a novel or something because reading both Sufi and Matrix 2 posts is like watching a thumb wrestling match with no thumbs. o_O
    Last edited by Demi_God; 12-14-2013 at 15:08.

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    My attention span isn't long enough to read it. I have no idea what they are talking about. I can safely say, this is the longest page I've ever seen from a thread!




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    PS Guys, it's not worth it. Your in the XBOX forum on a PS site... infer your own conclusion!

    Let them continue to spin threads in their ever revolving 720p worlds...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PS4freak View Post
    lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demi_God View Post
    I might as well read a novel or something because reading both Sufi and Matrix 2 posts is like watching a thumb wrestling match with no thumbs. o_O
    lmao
    Quote Originally Posted by PS4freak View Post
    My attention span isn't long enough to read it. I have no idea what they are talking about. I can safely say, this is the longest page I've ever seen from a thread!
    yea i gotta say it's one of the biggest i remember in years.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    PS Guys, it's not worth it. Your in the XBOX forum on a PS site... infer your own conclusion!

    Let them continue to spin threads in their ever revolving 720p worlds...
    720 = Doublespin ~~ Doubletalk... not worth the battle.
    nothing wrong with discussing. i just don't think there's much to discuss though. there are things that x1 is better in, some that ps4 is...if someone is going to argue that x1 will have about the same graphics when the paper clearly states something else, developers are saying something else and what we're seeing (i have used this a lot and i sound like a broken record) says otherwise as well.

    it will take a while for the xbox guys to sink in that a console that was likely $100+ less to make, is likely not going to have as much power to deliver. i love these discussions because it makes me understand better how people think in certain circumstances. not just the xbox guys, ps guys went through the same thing back in the day (ps3). what i realized was that neither were really right or wrong, it was just dependent on which context we looked at from. so that was interesting to me.

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