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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotoriousBOB View Post
    This isn't hard to understand. This thread is about the life of this console generation. It WILL be short lived for the reasons I stated, period.
    Well I think your wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by NotoriousBOB View Post
    I'm highly aware on how optimizations work. But the point of this thread and the points I'm making should be quite clear. This new generation of console for the first time, isn't cutting edge technology.

    The only way to know this is by comparing it to PC hardware.
    no it isn't, i'm sorry...you can call it whatever you want but you're going to need a high-end PC to deliver graphics like DC (for a start).

    that's why it's silly to call it what you're calling it by comparing it to PCs. There's a good reason why "developers" are impressed and saying this sort of power available is a big deal. key word, "power available". PCs as of now do not have the power "available" that the PS4 does and even if you upgraded your PC in the next 3 years, the PS4 will still be competing with it (with exclusives).

    Quote Originally Posted by NotoriousBOB View Post
    This isn't hard to understand. This thread is about the life of this console generation. It WILL be short lived for the reasons I stated, period.
    if it is going to be short lived, it's not going to be because of the specs, it will be because of the market conditions. do you think the previous gen consoles were adequate enough for an 8 year life span? those things tapped out 5 years ago.

    so far i feel like this generation is going to have a lot of power left over in the next 5 years even because the way they designed the PS4. PS3 was not designed for games, PS4 is probably the most game-focused hardware we have yet seen. it's not underpowered by any means.

    though i do think the cycle will not last as long as this time because they can easily put out the next console and keep BC and we already know this way (x86), they can keep the costs low and stuff so it's a win for everyone.

    but if they were to keep the generation longer, the PS4 would do far better than the PS3.

    only a few people could take advantage of the PS3, this generation, other developers will be able to keep up with ND, PD and QD.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBK.. View Post
    While I agreeing competing specs like for like isn't ever a good thing to do with consoles and PC's it's true that this is the first time consoles haven't been out performing a PC from the get go. A $500 PC performs equal to current gen consoles (PS4/XBone)

    That last part be fighting words though :Lol:
    There are several mistakes you're making.

    1) The $500 will work for multiplats of today, moving forward, the same PC you bought will not able to deliver the graphics PS4 will in 5 years.

    2) You'd need to upgrade your high-end PC halfway down in order to compete with the PS4 exclusives.

    Although nothing is going to top GT7 and what ND/QD will bring to the table. We still have not seen the car models on PC racers that GT5 provided us with and the photorealism of the tracks. and the gap between consoles and PCs are getting smaller, not less.

    3) Your comparison lies in multiplat games, which negate a console's strengths.

    4) You would need a top-end PC to deliver graphics that TLOU shows (with added resolution and frame rate and DX11 features of course). You can't do that with a PC that you bought back in 2006.

    I hope that puts things in perspective.
    Last edited by Omar; 11-29-2013 at 20:00.

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    The last time a console attempted an 8 year lifecycle with no replacement like the 360 had it almost killed the entire console industry. 8 years is simply too long to wait between generations.

    I know that I basically quit playing my consoles in 2010 because they stopped being competitive with the PC. Which PC games were growing, expanding, and innovating the console games were simply replicating what they've been doing since 2005. Minor tweaks were considered advancements on consoles, and a slight change in texture resolution was considered a "huge improvement" to the graphics. The games because repetitive and boring, and the lack of new IPs in the past 3 years just highlights how much the console market has stagnated.

    Consoles should have a 5-6 year lifespan. Any more than that and they fall too far behind the PC and become stagnant and boring.

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  6. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    The last time a console attempted an 8 year lifecycle with no replacement like the 360 had it almost killed the entire console industry. 8 years is simply too long to wait between generations.

    I know that I basically quit playing my consoles in 2010 because they stopped being competitive with the PC. Which PC games were growing, expanding, and innovating the console games were simply replicating what they've been doing since 2005. Minor tweaks were considered advancements on consoles, and a slight change in texture resolution was considered a "huge improvement" to the graphics. The games because repetitive and boring, and the lack of new IPs in the past 3 years just highlights how much the console market has stagnated.

    Consoles should have a 5-6 year lifespan. Any more than that and they fall too far behind the PC and become stagnant and boring.
    Consoles never needed to compete with the PC's prowess but yes, I think 8 year is too long. Thing is, both of them did not have a choice but to do this due to extraordinary circumstances and the architecture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post

    There are several mistakes you're making.

    1) The $500 will work for multiplats of today, moving forward, the same PC you bought will not able to deliver the graphics PS4 will in 5 years.
    ROFLMAO!!!

    Why not? Is the PC hardware going to degrade? ------------- If the hardware already exceeds the PS4 now then the hardware will ALWAYS exceed the PS4, and what can be done on the hardware will ALWAYS exceed the PS4 as well.

    2) You'd need to upgrade your high-end PC halfway down in order to compete with the PS4 exclusives.
    Again, ROFLMAO!!!

    2-3 years from now PS4 exclusives will still be limited by what the current hardware can do. No different from the PC world.

    And in 2-3 years time, if I were to upgrade my PC it would easily exceed everything the PS4 is capable of. In fact, I don't have to wait 2-3 years time, my PC now already far exceeds either of these new generation consoles, and I can assure you that 2-3 years from now my PC will still far exceed what these new consoles with their already commonplace hardware will be able to do.

    Although nothing is going to top GT7 and what ND/QD will bring to the table. We still have not seen the car models on PC racers that GT5 provided us with and the photorealism of the tracks. and the gap between consoles and PCs are getting smaller, not less.
    What PC racers are you talking about? Racing sims? If that's what you're talking about then I must point out that as far as the SIMULATION aspect of these games go, Gran Turismo/Forza is still stuck in the 1990s compared to PCs. While the PC sims may not focus on certain aspects of the graphics (car shadows and reflections might not look as realistic) the PC absolutely destroys their console counterparts in others (Most accurately modeled tracks by far, including having the proper off-track detail, 54+ car fields, better AI, far better physics, etc...).

    And as for the graphics....



    I see a dusk race with accurate lighting, not only on the outside of the car, but the car interior as well. The headlights on the car are on and accurate lighting is cast from them. All gauges are accurately modeled, and I see a full interior, not just a bit of dash.

    The track is the closest I've seen to the real thing (And FYI, I have seen the real thing) especially in regards to off-track scenery. In graphics it looks to be a step above Forza 5, and above any racing sim I've seen on the PS3 or PS4 to date.

    3) Your comparison lies in multiplat games, which negate a console's strengths.
    As do yours, or would you like to actually compare what a console RPG or a console sim is doing compared to a PC exclusive RPG or sim? Care to name me the Console exclusive shooter that exceeds DayZ in complexity, detail, map size, and uniqueness? And DayZ is years old now.

    4) You would need a top-end PC to deliver graphics that TLOU shows (with added resolution and frame rate and DX11 features of course). You can't do that with a PC that you bought back in 2006.
    You can't do that on the console you bought in 2006 either, can you?

    But I CAN do it on the PC I built in 2010 with no problems at all. Can you do it with your console that you bought in 2010?

    Since you want to play little kiddie games with your timelines, how about you tell me what games you can play on your 2012 console that can compare to my 2012 high end PC?




    I hope that puts things in perspective.
    Yep, it puts it in perspective quite well. The ONLY way you can make the claims you do is if you pretend that the PC hasn't advanced since 2006 and that future advancement in PC gaming will once again be limited by consoles. Your logic only works if you ignore PC exclusive games and what they do compared to stripped down console games.

    And obviously being in denial about everything and being massive Sony fanboy who believes that Sony does all things best as well certainly helps in your little world, doesn't it?
    Last edited by Completely Average; 11-29-2013 at 21:22.

  8. #56
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    I hope we get at least 6 years, I want to see what the ps4 can do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Completely Average View Post
    ROFLMAO!!!

    Why not? Is the PC hardware going to degrade? ------------- If the hardware already exceeds the PS4 now then the hardware will ALWAYS exceed the PS4, and what can be done on the hardware will ALWAYS exceed the PS4 as well.
    ROFLMAO!!! I guess you don't get the fact that consoles get utilized more as times goes. and the specs PS4 has now is enough to compete with a new PC in approx. 3 years if we were to look at exclusives (where consoles have their strength).

    We had DDR2 back in 2005, dual-core CPUs were $#@!, those GTX 9800s tapped out in 2008-2009. You needed two of them at 1GB to deliver 60fps on BF3.



    TLOU for example easily competes with BF3 albeit a lower resolution and frame rate. but do understand what it's competing with. one of those 9800s would not be able to deliver BF3 at that resolution, frame rate and settings and thus it's safe to assume that the game would not be playing at a higher resolution and frame rate than TLOU.

    It's not because the PC specs can't do it, it's because due to the nature of the PC market, developers can't continue to support a hardware like console developers can. of course i have to keep telling all PC elites this info and they just don't get it.

    Again, ROFLMAO!!!

    2-3 years from now PS4 exclusives will still be limited by what the current hardware can do. No different from the PC world.
    right but both environments are extremely different so while they will still be working with a closed hardware, they will still be able to improve while PCs will need to be upgraded to keep up with the development.

    And in 2-3 years time, if I were to upgrade my PC it would easily exceed everything the PS4 is capable of. In fact, I don't have to wait 2-3 years time, my PC now already far exceeds either of these new generation consoles, and I can assure you that 2-3 years from now my PC will still far exceed what these new consoles with their already commonplace hardware will be able to do.
    lol exactly, you'd first have to upgrade. Thank you for saying something right. Next, you're likely talking about multiplats because that's all PC gamers ever talk about, yes, that is true but i'm not talking about multiplat.

    What PD/ND/QD are going to throw at the PS4, will continue to compete with the PC, what they will throw at it years from now, will still compete with the PC hardware of that time. Though, PD is special and I don't think the PC can compete with what they will show us. Due to lack of development support first and lack of optimization. again, this has nothing to do with how powerful the PC is, it's about how much power they are able to extract from it before it needs an upgrade.

    What PC racers are you talking about? Racing sims? If that's what you're talking about then I must point out that as far as the SIMULATION aspect of these games go, Gran Turismo/Forza is still stuck in the 1990s compared to PCs. While the PC sims may not focus on certain aspects of the graphics (car shadows and reflections might not look as realistic) the PC absolutely destroys their console counterparts in others (Most accurately modeled tracks by far, including having the proper off-track detail, 54+ car fields, better AI, far better physics, etc...).
    which games are you talking about? I'd like an example. Many editorials called GT5 having the most realistic physics ever so I'd like to see these racers you speak of.

    but yes, this is precisely what I mean, the developers don't want to spend too much time on extracting the power of the PC because then people won't be able to run it (Crysis) and that means lesser sales. That's the biggest weakness PC has and why it's silly to make these comparisons.

    As do yours, or would you like to actually compare what a console RPG or a console sim is doing compared to a PC exclusive RPG or sim? Care to name me the Console exclusive shooter that exceeds DayZ in complexity, detail, map size, and uniqueness? And DayZ is years old now.
    You mean a year and a half? Point taken. and of course there are things PCs will excel even with the issues it has, and this has mostly to do with the flexibility of power that PC has and the developer support that comes due to that. my point is, how many people bought ARMA 2? DayZ might've revived the series for a while (a mod they didn't have make right?) but the point is, while some developers will carve out a niche, that's just all it's going to be, a niche. and that's why it's difficult to make this decision, you'd have to be pretty much dedicated to it and hope for a cult following. this sort of development needs a unique sort of developer that is willing to go the extra mile. Crytek could not hold on to it, it was not feasible.

    but yes, examples like these will exist because the PC just has that much extra power to spare even with its inefficiencies. just like the strenghts exist on console side that i mentioned. and i'm fine with it, i do like the PC mind you.

    You can't do that on the console you bought in 2006 either, can you?

    But I CAN do it on the PC I built in 2010 with no problems at all. Can you do it with your console that you bought in 2010?
    Let me bring you to the correct perspective here, can you do that with a PC you bought in 2006? (or more like 2005 because Xbox 360 would do a better job at a game like this)

    Since you want to play little kiddie games with your timelines, how about you tell me what games you can play on your 2012 console that can compare to my 2012 high end PC?[
    I don't think you are understanding this timeline lol. My point is that you'd need to upgrade your PC to have something better, a PC in 2012 would be upgrade over the one from 2005 or 2006. so you're not presenting a rebuttal here, just agreeing with me. All I said was that these consoles will be able to compete with the PC even after 3 years once you get an upgraded PC (with some things that won't be done on PC, just like as you brought up, there will be some things the PS4/X1 can't do either, right now, it just depends on the circumstances).

    So we're somewhat in line here.

    Yep, it puts it in perspective quite well. The ONLY way you can make the claims you do is if you pretend that the PC hasn't advanced since 2006 and that future advancement in PC gaming will once again be limited by consoles. Your logic only works if you ignore PC exclusive games and what they do compared to stripped down console games.
    That's exactly what I was saying. If you go back and read what I was talking about, you'd realize that this is exactly the flaw I was trying to point out. PC gamers are quick to note that a cheap PC can outdo the multiplat games that the PS4 can (although i think it will need to be more than $500 because it's not that cheap to create even a barebones PC with that money now). what PC gamers fail to understand is that the same $500 PC, next year, will not deliver at 1080p x 60fps at ultra high settings unless you were just putting on a game that did not progress from last year's graphics. the point is that bring up that example is out of context and isn't accurate.

    The idea is, you have to pay for the premium service but consoles will still be able to compete. that's why consoles are where they are. because this concept makes sense, and it's where PC development somewhat needs to go (and it is with steam box, which i think is a wonderful idea, especially since it's linux-based). the problem to me is windows, if we had PC games on linux, we'd have less problems...but then we'd have less users as well...so steambox makes sense, you can keep the windows PC but have a linux PC for gaming. wonderful.

    the all-in-one approach is not good (the extreme example of it is PC), and sadly that's where consoles are going and PCs are trying to meet in the middle.

    And obviously being in denial about everything and being massive Sony fanboy who believes that Sony does all things best as well certainly helps in your little world, doesn't it?
    well done sir lol.
    Last edited by Omar; 11-29-2013 at 21:57.

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  11. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkarEffect View Post
    I hope we get at least 6 years, I want to see what the ps4 can do.
    This generation won't take that long to max out. We'll see small improvements of the next 2-3 years. I'm figuring 15-25% better than what we see at launch. After that, the return will hardly be worth mentioning.

    The hardware is much easier to utilize this time. The learning curve is tiny compared to CELL and its SPU's .
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotoriousBOB View Post
    This generation won't take that long to max out. We'll see small improvements of the next 2-3 years. I'm figuring 15-25% better than what we see at launch. After that, the return will hardly be worth mentioning.

    The hardware is much easier to utilize this time. The learning curve is tiny compared to CELL and its SPU's .
    that's somewhat accurate but first we have to get out of this cross-gen rut. once that's out, we'll likely see 2x better graphics and then those will continue to improve slightly for another 2-3 years...then we're going to see another big jump by 4-5 years mark.

    this generation is likely going to bring the most improvements we have ever seen.

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    They said a decade for the PS3, then they said more like 7 years before a new console but we'll still support the PS3 at least 3 more years, so that's what we meant by a decade. New consoles put a lot of focus back on console gaming whether most of the games in development really need the greater performance or not. I'd expect about 5 years for PS4, likewise for Xbox One. WiiU is a tossup. If it was selling better I'd say 5, too, but I think it depends on whether they decide to stick with the hardware and make that console work or just move on to something new. Nintendo puts out a lot of new hardware, but on the other hand they tend to have a lot of confidence in what they release to the market. Virtual Boy and Game Boy Micro are the only two devices I recall they bailed on pretty fast in the North American market.

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    It all depends on MONEY and the expanding creative ability of game companies and what they can achieve on these gen consoles
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanfordmay View Post
    They said a decade for the PS3, then they said more like 7 years before a new console but we'll still support the PS3 at least 3 more years, so that's what we meant by a decade.
    yes. exactly like they said about the PS2. They said its lifecycle would be for 10 years...which means how long they're going to keep producing it which goes alongside of how long they will support it. so they didn't change anything. it's just that people misunderstood what Sony meant.
    New consoles put a lot of focus back on console gaming whether most of the games in development really need the greater performance or not. I'd expect about 5 years for PS4, likewise for Xbox One. WiiU is a tossup. If it was selling better I'd say 5, too, but I think it depends on whether they decide to stick with the hardware and make that console work or just move on to something new. Nintendo puts out a lot of new hardware, but on the other hand they tend to have a lot of confidence in what they release to the market. Virtual Boy and Game Boy Micro are the only two devices I recall they bailed on pretty fast in the North American market.
    i think they are going to reveal around the 6th year and then either come out by the end of that 6th year or beginning of 7th year. for them to come out with another console in 5 years, they'd have to reveal it about a year earlier and we'd be hearing rumors 6 months or so earlier.

    no way we'll even hear about the next PS or Xbox in year 2017 and then come out with it in 2018. if they did that, they'd have to come out with incremental increases and people aren't going to like that, it's not like the gameboy where you can come out with a slightly upgraded version.

    the problem is that if you come out with a console every 5 years, you are discouraging developers to jump in for the long run. the developer support base would become severely split, some devs making games for this gen, some making for previous gen. just won't work well.

    sometimes devs/publishers jump in because they want to make sequels so that it's a cash cow once the engine is ready to go...you can't even come out with anything more than a sequel if the cycle is 5 years.

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