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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    Most games will, huh? I heard that one before....lol
    He's right. You can see the deficiencies right now if you'd like.

    Xbox One has considerably inferior silicon in the first place, even forgetting how much is cut away from developers due to the OS(s).

    For some games, maybe it won't be huge. Perhaps a more stable framerate or 1080p vs 720p. Others it may be more glaring, it all depends on how hard the game pushes the technology envelope and what kind of resources the developer puts towards the respective ports.

    In all things, though, the PS4 should be considerably more powerful and easier to work with.


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  3. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    He's right. You can see the deficiencies right now if you'd like.
    He cant be right because it hasn't happened yet. Maybe what may happen or should happen would of been ok.

    Xbox One has considerably inferior silicon in the first place, even forgetting how much is cut away from developers due to the OS(s)
    .

    So far i don't see the os having any effect on the games. I definitely don't see any game that says it has considerably inferior silicon. I don't have knowledge in that area, but i know what i see, and i don't see it at this point.

    For some games, maybe it won't be huge. Perhaps a more stable framerate or 1080p vs 720p. Others it may be more glaring, it all depends on how hard the game pushes the technology envelope and what kind of resources the developer puts towards the respective ports.
    Yea, you can probably say that about both. I agree, it all depends on the devs. You can see it in games like Ryse and killzone. Anyone can look at those two games and see there isn't a considerable gap in the two. in fact, some would say that Ryse is the superior looking title in some ways.


    In all things, though, the PS4 should be considerably more powerful and easier to work with.
    I have no doubt that ps4 is easier to work with at this early stage. But just because it is, it doesn't mean the other is hard to work with. neither is the nightmare that ps3 started off at.

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    and that, my friends, is why one can make an argument out of anything.

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  6. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and that, my friends, is why one can make an argument out of anything.
    Maybe a few disagreements but hardly an argument.

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    disagreements, arguments, whatever you wanna call 'em.

  8. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    disagreements, arguments, whatever you wanna call 'em.
    Well since it's up to me, i'll call it a discussion, which can consist of disagreements and arguments.

  9. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    you're going to lose this battle in the end because relatively, the X1 will never come close to the PS4 in power and while some games may not show that, most games will and some games will show even more.

    the problem is that you're comparing it to the 360 OS. an OS that was built 7+ years ago. the 360 OS isn't as good for today's standard.
    First, it's not a battle.. lol. Thanks for reviving a week+ old post of mine though.

    You're going way into the future to apply that logic to something right now? I mean, that's fine with me. I made my point, and that isn't going to change. I'm not going to judge anything being compromised based on launch multiplat games. Especially when the exclusives look pretty damn good.

    Your comment makes no sense as to what I was even talking about in regards to the OS.




  10. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    First, it's not a battle.. lol. Thanks for reviving a week+ old post of mine though.

    You're going way into the future to apply that logic to something right now? I mean, that's fine with me. I made my point, and that isn't going to change. I'm not going to judge anything being compromised based on launch multiplat games. Especially when the exclusives look pretty damn good.

    Your comment makes no sense as to what I was even talking about in regards to the OS.
    i'm going way into the future because you were saying how we will see in the future.

    About the OS, you said, "It isn't any less "usable" than the 360."

    ok, what do you mean by usable? I was thinking how user-friendly and/or efficient the OS is, you know, things we look at when looking at an OS. the problem is that you're comparing it to the 360 OS, which obviously will make you think that X1's OS is perfectly fine. It's when you compare it to PS4's OS (competition right now) is when you realize how unefficient it is, which we already discussed before why that is (apps instead of background services) and what Edge was talking about in another article.

    I haven't touched the X1 interface yet but having experience with metro, i don't find it user-friendly, there aren't enough options for you to optimize it, it's just all there. there isn't much organization. look at the X1 interface, it seems like you would get lost in the plethora of menus, no real way to know how far deep you are. and all of that stuff seems to load slower than the PS4 OS judging from youtube videos and how it should be when you realize how they're both running these programs.


    P.S. lol i didn't really mean "battle", i meant, this argument or claim, whichever you wanna call it.

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  12. #34
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    I've already put to bed alot of this, much to Sub_stance1's chagrin.

    At the moment, on sports games and some racing, where the terrain doesn't turn over frequently and completely without repeating , the games are about the same on the XBO.

    So, they are 1080p usually.

    Where games have heavy terrain turnover, don't repeat, can't be 'loaded into memory' and particularly feature real time modification and lots of on the fly calculation... The XBO doesn't seem to keep up TODAY and those games are 720p, bowing to the bandwidth limitations imposed on creating more detail on more and more objects at a certain number of frames per second.

    The PS4, except for Battle Field 4 which seems very screwed up in general, is running at 1080p on all 3rd party games and games of that type and doing so in the 60fps range.

    As developers push and push, they will find better ways to do things, but, eventually something will require alot of calculations and perhaps the PS4 will be pushed to where the physics and lighting etc are so high it has to step down to 720p.

    The XBO is then out of room on the same level of game.
    Does it reduce to 540p hoping it can keep up with the in game action?

    Baring some really dizzying tile based resources management I don't think can be pulled off to such a degree, (which will end up being used by SONY anyway to their advantage as well), I don't see the XBO's position improving much, as I've said pretty much this same $#@! since day one and i'm still right.

    Feel free to discuss how i'm wrong, as you always do.
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  14. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    I've already put to bed alot of this, much to Sub_stance1's chagrin.

    At the moment, on sports games and some racing, where the terrain doesn't turn over frequently and completely without repeating , the games are about the same on the XBO.

    So, they are 1080p usually.

    Where games have heavy terrain turnover, don't repeat, can't be 'loaded into memory' and particularly feature real time modification and lots of on the fly calculation... The XBO doesn't seem to keep up TODAY and those games are 720p, bowing to the bandwidth limitations imposed on creating more detail on more and more objects at a certain number of frames per second.

    The PS4, except for Battle Field 4 which seems very screwed up in general, is running at 1080p on all 3rd party games and games of that type and doing so in the 60fps range.

    As developers push and push, they will find better ways to do things, but, eventually something will require alot of calculations and perhaps the PS4 will be pushed to where the physics and lighting etc are so high it has to step down to 720p.

    The XBO is then out of room on the same level of game.
    Does it reduce to 540p hoping it can keep up with the in game action?

    Baring some really dizzying tile based resources management I don't think can be pulled off to such a degree, (which will end up being used by SONY anyway to their advantage as well), I don't see the XBO's position improving much, as I've said pretty much this same $#@! since day one and i'm still right.

    Feel free to discuss how i'm wrong, as you always do.
    first, I won't tell you that you're wrong because it's your opinion.

    i get what you are saying but it's mostly speculation. You are basically doing the same thing people did last gen. It's only been weeks since the new hardware has released and you are already judging the hardware that will be around for years on rushed launch titles. I remember ps3 having a not so good launch and went on to produce some great looking and playing titles. This gen won't be any different than last. It's gonna come down to the devs and what games they produce, and right now there are no considerable advantages there that I can see. My post was about what I experience, and right now I don't see a considerable advantage except for price. After that, it's mostly about the games and services. Like always it will come down to devs can produce and so far it look like we are in for some great times ahead IMO. Sorry, but until I see something that done on one console that clearly shows an advantage, I'm sticking by my opinion. Not saying it won't happen, but it hasn't so far.

  15. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    first, I won't tell you that you're wrong because it's your opinion.

    i get what you are saying but it's mostly speculation. You are basically doing the same thing people did last gen. It's only been weeks since the new hardware has released and you are already judging the hardware that will be around for years on rushed launch titles.
    fodder fodder fodder.

    I remember ps3 having a not so good launch and went on to produce some great looking and playing titles.
    yeah, because it was more powerful than the 360 but had issues in the beginning because technically it had more bottlenecks and third party weren't ready to dive into that for a long time. and that problem never fully went away.

    this gen won't be any different than last.
    lololol ok dude. think whatever you want to think. numbers lie according to you. yeah, let's talk about how USB 1.1 will eventually get as good as USB 2.0. give it time. you don't get anything and yet you want to cling on to things that have nothing to do with one another. there are very "specific" reasons for how things turned out last generation and very "specific" reasons for how they are turning out this generation. no, it is not going to be the same, it doesn't matter what you think about it as long as you don't have facts or logic to back it up with.

    It's gonna come down to the devs and what games they produce, and right now there are no considerable advantages there that I can see.
    you don't see it, yes, that's the only thing correct so far in your post.

    My post was about what I experience, and right now I don't see a considerable advantage except for price. After that, it's mostly about the games and services. Like always it will come down to devs can produce and so far it look like we are in for some great times ahead IMO.
    the devs can only do as much as the hardware allows. granted, you are going to see some amazing games on the X1 because it is a next-gen console. what you don't get is that you will just see better-looking games on the PS4 moving forward and better multiplats as well. some will not have a different, most will and some will truly show how much more powerful the PS4 is.

    Sorry, but until I see something that done on one console that clearly shows an advantage, I'm sticking by my opinion. Not saying it won't happen, but it hasn't so far.
    that's fine. no one is asking you to believe anything. if i were to tell you that the leaves were going to eventually fall off a certain tree, i could see someone not believing in it even though there is precedence and facts available until it did happen. people also believed the world was flat at one point even though there was evidence otherwise.

  16. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    i'm going way into the future because you were saying how we will see in the future.

    About the OS, you said, "It isn't any less "usable" than the 360."

    ok, what do you mean by usable? I was thinking how user-friendly and/or efficient the OS is, you know, things we look at when looking at an OS. the problem is that you're comparing it to the 360 OS, which obviously will make you think that X1's OS is perfectly fine. It's when you compare it to PS4's OS (competition right now) is when you realize how unefficient it is, which we already discussed before why that is (apps instead of background services) and what Edge was talking about in another article.

    I haven't touched the X1 interface yet but having experience with metro, i don't find it user-friendly, there aren't enough options for you to optimize it, it's just all there. there isn't much organization. look at the X1 interface, it seems like you would get lost in the plethora of menus, no real way to know how far deep you are. and all of that stuff seems to load slower than the PS4 OS judging from youtube videos and how it should be when you realize how they're both running these programs.


    P.S. lol i didn't really mean "battle", i meant, this argument or claim, whichever you wanna call it.
    If you're just talking about how it's going to be in the future... ok. I'm not sure why that even applies to me. I said I would agree with someone else if it continues past these launch games. It isn't an argument, claim, etc. I'm telling someone what needs to happen in order for me to agree with them.

    If you haven't used the Xbox One, that's all that matters.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    If you're just talking about how it's going to be in the future... ok. I'm not sure why that even applies to me. I said I would agree with someone else if it continues past these launch games. It isn't an argument, claim, etc. I'm telling someone what needs to happen in order for me to agree with them.

    If you haven't used the Xbox One, that's all that matters.
    you're not saying anything different than what Sub is saying. you are ignoring the facts, you are ignoring evidence, you are also not showing much knowledge on these subjects to present a different point.

    you are saying, something to the effect of, we will see if this continues.

    sub is saying, it doesn't exist now and it won't exist in the future. but somehow he does imply that things will get better for X1 although he claims that there are no issues visible to him right now.

    also, i don't need to play the X1 to understand how OS works and how apps work as opposed to background services, you yourself confirmed that it was lethargic and slow. so did Edge. now, things can and will improve but it is a fact that an app can never be as efficient as a "dedicated" background service and also the phenomenon that having a closed OS is easier to work with and improve upon than one that has dozens of apps that don't need to be tested in order for the updates to appear.

    you are both fighting against facts, evidence and experience. unless you show something otherwise, we don't have anything to discuss.

  18. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    you're not saying anything different than what Sub is saying. you are ignoring the facts, you are ignoring evidence, you are also not showing much knowledge on these subjects to present a different point.

    you are saying, something to the effect of, we will see if this continues.

    sub is saying, it doesn't exist now and it won't exist in the future. but somehow he does imply that things will get better for X1 although he claims that there are no issues visible to him right now.

    also, i don't need to play the X1 to understand how OS works and how apps work as opposed to background services, you yourself confirmed that it was lethargic and slow. so did Edge. now, things can and will improve but it is a fact that an app can never be as efficient as a "dedicated" background service and also the phenomenon that having a closed OS is easier to work with and improve upon than one that has dozens of apps that don't need to be tested in order for the updates to appear.

    you are both fighting against facts, evidence and experience. unless you show something otherwise, we don't have anything to discuss.
    What the heck??

    Sufi... I'm not arguing against anything. You're rehashing posts that are week old, and it wasn't an argument to begin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I can't see how the Xbox One gaming capabilities are compromised. It still plays games.. no? I think it's way to early to start digging the grave.
    How are they compromised? Because of launch titles? It still plays games, and I think because the idea is that the Xbox One was launched early to be level with the PS4 as far as launch dates, that the games weren't done. Now, if these annually released games, COD, BF4, etc., are still sitting behind the PS4 counterparts when they are released next year, then I will agree 100% that the capabilities have been compromised.

    Wtf are you even arguing here? This quote is something you replied to. These are MY requirements to agree with something. I'm not saying any of my post is a fact. It is MY opinion. You see how I typed it? "I" can't see... "IT" still plays games. "I think" its way to early....

    The same goes with the other stuff you quoted. Those are my personal opinions and stances. I never said any of it was a fact. If you took it that way, then argue with yourself. There. Nothing left to discuss.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post


    yeah, because it was more powerful than the 360 but had issues in the beginning because technically it had more bottlenecks and third party weren't ready to dive into that for a long time. and that problem never fully went away.
    point is that it did ok development wise, regardless of what's inside.


    lololol ok dude. think whatever you want to think. numbers lie according to you. yeah, let's talk about how USB 1.1 will eventually get as good as USB 2.0. give it time. you don't get anything and yet you want to cling on to things that have nothing to do with one another. there are very "specific" reasons for how things turned out last generation and very "specific" reasons for how they are turning out this generation. no, it is not going to be the same, it doesn't matter what you think about it as long as you don't have facts or logic to back it up with.
    I have my experience with both consoles to back it up. That's all I need. I can say that we will see impressive games on both, just like last gen. It's about the only prediction I can comfortably make.




    the devs can only do as much as the hardware allows. granted, you are going to see some amazing games on the X1 because it is a next-gen console. what you don't get is that you will just see better-looking games on the PS4 moving forward and better multiplats as well.
    Maybe, maybe not. I don't make predictions like that. I can only talk about the present. Better can be subjective. Cod May run better on xb1 but arguably looks better on ps4. It all depends on what's more important to the gamer.




    that's fine. no one is asking you to believe anything. if i were to tell you that the leaves were going to eventually fall off a certain tree, i could see someone not believing in it even though there is precedence and facts available until it did happen. people also believed the world was flat at one point even though there was evidence otherwise.

    i know. You are asking to believe in predictions, speculations or what should happen. There is a difference in someone saying Tokyo exists, and then saying it will probably be destroyed by an earthquake tomorrow.

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    COD runs bettter on X1? Thats news to me at least post patch. Its already been documented that the initial framerate judder was because of PS4 running COD in excess of 60fps not under it. And that was successfully patched. Cant post the link but a google search found that info for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    COD runs bettter on X1? Thats news to me at least post patch. Its already been documented that the initial framerate judder was because of PS4 running COD in excess of 60fps not under it. And that was successfully patched. Cant post the link but a google search found that info for me.
    Here is the face-off...

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...t-gen-face-off




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    And theres been a patch since then. If I could post a link I would show you not only about the patch but about WHY there was framerate issues early on. PS4 was running COD at ABOVE 60fps not under it. So it wasnt a performance defecit perse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    What the heck??

    Sufi... I'm not arguing against anything. You're rehashing posts that are week old, and it wasn't an argument to begin with.


    How are they compromised? Because of launch titles? It still plays games, and I think because the idea is that the Xbox One was launched early to be level with the PS4 as far as launch dates, that the games weren't done. Now, if these annually released games, COD, BF4, etc., are still sitting behind the PS4 counterparts when they are released next year, then I will agree 100% that the capabilities have been compromised.
    that right there states again that you do not understand that X1 capabilities are compromised and they will continue to be compromised because not only it's significantly "less" powerful, it also has OS issues (reservation of resources and general inefficiencies) that are going to get in the way regardless of the improvements in the future. the only way you can assume that they will get closer to the PS4 counterparts or as good, is if PS4 stopped to improve its OS and resources.

    which isn't the case, especially because PS4 is easier to develop for, there's nothing going for the X1 that would imply that it would relatively get better. the only thing i can think of, that might slightly make it better "than before" relative to the PS4 is if the OS reservation and optimization is so poor that you're going to see a considerable increase in the next year...highly unlikely, even if they do improve on coding, it's still not more powerful and it's still going to be limited by the ESRAM bottleneck.

    basically, you can wait but it's not going to change much. let's not forget that games will continue to push the hardware and not the other way around. that's going to show a considerable difference in multiplats in the coming years.

    the issue is that there's nothing going for the X1 that would change the situation. The PS3 had a significant power advantage going for it, just that it was difficult to extract.

    Wtf are you even arguing here? This quote is something you replied to. These are MY requirements to agree with something. I'm not saying any of my post is a fact. It is MY opinion. You see how I typed it? "I" can't see... "IT" still plays games. "I think" its way to early....
    well your opinion is not supported because i can see otherwise and i have proof.

    The same goes with the other stuff you quoted. Those are my personal opinions and stances. I never said any of it was a fact. If you took it that way, then argue with yourself. There. Nothing left to discuss.
    it's a baseless opinion and it stinks lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    point is that it did ok development wise, regardless of what's inside.
    it did ok "because" of what was inside.

    I have my experience with both consoles to back it up. That's all I need. I can say that we will see impressive games on both, just like last gen. It's about the only prediction I can comfortably make.
    yes, we know that.

    Maybe, maybe not. I don't make predictions like that. I can only talk about the present. Better can be subjective. Cod May run better on xb1 but arguably looks better on ps4. It all depends on what's more important to the gamer.
    that's not an issue with performance or power itself, it has to do with coding issues. look at crow's post.

    i know. You are asking to believe in predictions, speculations or what should happen. There is a difference in someone saying Tokyo exists, and then saying it will probably be destroyed by an earthquake tomorrow.
    lol except i'm not asking you to believe in predictions that are based off speculations. i'm asking you to believe in predictions that are based on fact and evidence.

  24. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    And theres been a patch since then. If I could post a link I would show you not only about the patch but about WHY there was framerate issues early on. PS4 was running COD at ABOVE 60fps not under it. So it wasnt a performance defecit perse.
    Yeah, I understand that. It said it was patched for this face-off. I'll get the other info. I wasn't going against what you were saying. I thought that was the link you were looking for. Gimme a few and I'll find the others.

    In this face-off though they did mention the problems you're referring to and the unpatched retail.
    Having the appearance of judder and visible tearing in a Call of Duty game is disappointing, and on the PS4 at least we get the feeling that things simply aren't optimised quite as well as they should be - something that is clear from the resolution error and juddering issues in the unpatched retail build.
    So, this isn't a face-off pre-patch. Unless of course you're talking about another patch that even further dealt with the problems.




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    F34R - Oh ok I gotcha. And yeah it did ship with that issue so I know youre right there. I wasnt arguing against that fact at all. Also I have COD on PS4 and no framerate issues that I can see. But I didnt buy it on day one.
    Last edited by mistercrow; 01-11-2014 at 20:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    F34R - Oh ok I gotcha. And yeah it did ship with that issue so I know youre right there. I wasnt arguing against that fact at all. Also I have COD on PS4 and no framerate issues that I can see. But I didnt buy it on day one.
    Yeah, 1.07 was out day one for the PS4, and the only other patch was 1.08 for the PS4. Here is the LINK for the 1.08 patch notes. I would assume the performance analysis is accurate in the face-off.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Yeah, 1.07 was out day one for the PS4, and the only other patch was 1.08 for the PS4. Here is the LINK for the 1.08 patch notes. I would assume the performance analysis is accurate in the face-off.
    Thanks. Wheres the link about PS4 running at above 60fps? And my point still stands that I havent encountered any of these framerate issues during any of my playtime.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    Thanks. Wheres the link about PS4 running at above 60fps? And my point still stands that I havent encountered any of these framerate issues during any of my playtime.
    You're either not at the parts where the frame rate drops a decent amount, or you just don't see it. Are you strictly online?

    Here are the summary parts basically...

    Campaign:
    Having the appearance of judder and visible tearing in a Call of Duty game is disappointing, and on the PS4 at least we get the feeling that things simply aren't optimised quite as well as they should be - something that is clear from the resolution error and juddering issues in the unpatched retail build. However, in fairness these issues do affect both platforms at times, with a later mission set in detail-rich jungle environments seeing the level of smoothness compromised on a frequent basis. The Xbox One game recovers more quickly, restoring the desired 60fps response for longer periods, but neither platform delivers the faultless update we would expect from the series.
    MP:
    Moving onto online multiplayer, this aspect of the game appears to be more stable across both consoles. There are no dramatic set-pieces on offer here, and the showcase environmental destruction takes a back seat to more static locations where players create their own spectacle in the form of well-placed head shots and sneaky close quarters melee takedowns. In fact, we didn't notice any obvious drops in frame-rate at all where the Xbox One version of the game is concerned, with the solid 60fps update producing smooth, judder-free gameplay and crisp controls.


    The experience isn't quite as consistent on the PS4, with short bouts of slowdown and judder sometimes cropping up throughout matches due to the appearance of torn and dropped frames. While the judder this causes is distracting at times, the effects appear to be reduced over the pre-patched version of the game, so these issues never completely ruin the overall flow of play even though they're annoying. On the plus side, it's much easier to pick out distant targets on the PS4 due to the native 1080p presentation, where fine details are better resolved compared to the Xbox One's lower-resolution image.
    So, it's there. Just depends on where you are, etc.




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    I've completed the campaign and have a played a fair bit of MP (mostly online squad mode) and havent seen these big framerate drops. Sorry. Still waiting for the above 60fps link though. That was allegedly the cause of the judder. Anyway I havent seen the big framerate drops that I've heard described. Dont know what else to say. lol
    Last edited by mistercrow; 01-11-2014 at 20:26.

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