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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Which would be an indication that despite its ram limitations they squeezed quite a bit out of it.
    do you realize that the larger part of using the SPUs was to use the system RAM? without using that RAM, PS3 wouldn't be able to do half of what it did.

    Why? On the Ps3 you didn't have enough room to store textures and model data, and often the gpu could not work through larger textures fast enough. This is not the case on either next gen consoles. And we already know that textures/data in to the gpu is not a huge bandwidth soaker, so these are not at all affected by any bottleneck.
    1) textures do not define graphics anymore. we don't need higher res textures to show bigger living breathing worlds. that's what is going to matter this generation. something the Xbox 1 will not able to do. unfortunately, I don't expect exclusives from either side to really be pushing the worlds like Rockstar/Bethesda games do and they will go for the lowest common denominator in game design at the core and then run it better on the PS4 and call it a day. however we will likely see more objects and more effects in PS4 exclusives that likely won't be there in the intensity in X1 exclusives. the difference is going to be larger than PS3 vs 360 (exclusives).

    I think we have differing takes on game design, cause while I appreciate prettier explosions, they are not my idea of a change in game design.
    That's not what i said. where did i say that? That wouldn't be the core design anyway. those are details, eye candy. game design to me, has to do with the eco system, how realtime something is, how big the level design is? WoW doesn't require much loading at all, that's a design from the core that is different from other games. games on 360/PS3 are nothing like that and WoW is from 2004...even 10 years later, 360 and PS3 can never do anything like that because they just don't have the memory capacity.

    No, not at all, but it can help with certain types of games being able to deliver a more persitant world.
    and that's what i said.

    And any way, last I heard Sony still has leas available ram to game devs, or has this changed?
    less than X1? no. less than what we originally thought? yes. will that change? will that matter for PS4 more than it does for X1? Yes. why? because much more can be done with every 1MB of GDDR5 RAM available than 1MB of DDR3 available.

    don't believe me?



    Not all games are large open world sumulators.
    Jeez.
    even on smaller scale, you will just have more of everything on PS4 exclusives. either way, it's going to show. but yes, larger games that are multiplat will show more power difference than smaller scaled ones. that i will agree.

    Wow, really you speak with a lot of conviction, but you have nothing yet to prove you hypothesis on any of this, your discounting launch games because the PS4 should have shown an even greater gap, and yet this is really your only evidence of anything you are saying as been remotely true, so I am at a loss, I cant prove or disprove what you feel is the correct way things will work out other than to say, call me when it happens.
    that's because i was ending it with light humor and showing that AMD begs to differ. conviction? i can say the same for you with DDR3. you're stuck in last gen and trying to convince us that last gen was better.




    let's not beat around the bush that's GDDR5 btw, it's a typo. look up the actual review. http://tech.firstpost.com/reviews/hi...ard-20680.html

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  3. #202
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  4. #203
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    Ps4's future GPGPU, xb1 cloud? Cerny was glowing talking about it, can't wait to see the ICE team get cracking on this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Yeah, but you all are arguing about specs, over and over again, and saying the XBO will catch up to the PS4.
    That is not happening. But some won't relinquish the fight.
    Switching to saying that consumers don't care is both naive and avoidance.

    How about closing this thread, it's a useless mess.
    Now that sales threads is all but lost I guess all is left is specs...again

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Willaford View Post
    Yeah, but you all are arguing about specs, over and over again, and saying the XBO will catch up to the PS4.
    No one said that.
    That is not happening. But some won't relinquish the fight.
    Switching to saying that consumers don't care is both naive and avoidance.

    How about closing this thread, it's a useless mess.



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  7. #206
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    EDGE: Xbox ONE's gaming capabilities compromised and frustrating.

    I am stuck in the middle of the south island on my phone so I cant really give you decent reply at this point nor watch any you tube clips, but I will reply when I get back but a quick summary...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    do you realize that the larger part of using the SPUs was to use the system RAM? without using that RAM, PS3 wouldn't be able to do half of what it did.
    Not true, SPU's had no access to ram at all.
    1) textures do not define graphics anymore. we don't need higher res textures to show bigger living breathing worlds. that's what is going to matter this generation. something the Xbox 1 will not able to do. unfortunately, I don't expect exclusives from either side to really be pushing the worlds like Rockstar/Bethesda games do and they will go for the lowest common denominator in game design at the core and then run it better on the PS4 and call it a day. however we will likely see more objects and more effects in PS4 exclusives that likely won't be there in the intensity in X1 exclusives. the difference is going to be larger than PS3 vs 360 (exclusives).
    Unless something has changed the xbo still has more useable memory to devs than the PS4 last i looked.
    [quote]
    That's not what i said. where did i say that? That wouldn't be the core design anyway. those are details, eye candy. game design to me, has to do with the eco system, how realtime something is, how big the level design is? WoW doesn't require much loading at all, that's a design from the core that is different from other games. games on 360/PS3 are nothing like that and WoW is from 2004...even 10 years later, 360 and PS3 can never do anything like that because they just don't have the memory capacity.

    and that's what i said.

    less than X1? no. [Quote] unless something has changed recently you are incorrect. I am happy to be updated but, i have bever heard of the PS4 having more memory.
    less than what we originally thought? yes. will that change? will that matter for PS4 more than it does for X1? Yes. why? because much more can be done with every 1MB of GDDR5 RAM available than 1MB of DDR3 available.
    Voodo magic!!!!
    don't believe me?



    even on smaller scale, you will just have more of everything on PS4 exclusives. either way, it's going to show. but yes, larger games that are multiplat will show more power difference than smaller scaled ones. that i will agree.


    that's because i was ending it with light humor and showing that AMD begs to differ. conviction? i can say the same for you with DDR3. you're stuck in last gen and trying to convince us that last gen was better.




    let's not beat around the bush that's GDDR5 btw, it's a typo. look up the actual review. http://tech.firstpost.com/reviews/hi...ard-20680.html
    All bow down to gddr5, wez must have it for all systems.



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    Last edited by mynd; 01-15-2014 at 07:45.

  8. #207
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  9. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    I am stuck in the middle of the south island on my phone so I cant really give you decent reply at this point nor watch any you tube clips, but I will reply when I get back but a quick summary...


    Not true, SPU's had no access to ram at all.
    fair enough, i did not know that. the point still stands. they had a limitation that showed in multiplats but not in exclusives because XDR was faster than GDDR3 and they were able to use up all of the RAM. it had many things going for it that closed the gap eventually and the only reason they had issues was due to its design flaw. the fact that they made it difficult for developers to extract the power. so again, the point stands. ESRAM + various other stuff i've told you, will not only give devs less available RAM but also less resources. it's not going to close the gap.

    Unless something has changed the xbo still has more useable memory to devs than the PS4 last i looked.
    pretty sure PS4 has 5GB + 0.5GB flexible RAM whereas X1 had 4.5GB. look it up. i'm not going to waste my time with it.
    unless something has changed recently you are incorrect. I am happy to be updated but, i have bever heard of the PS4 having more memory.
    nope.
    Voodo magic!!!!
    yeah, well science is definitely very voodooish. it scares lots of people into disbelief.
    All bow down to gddr5, wez must have it for all systems.
    now you're getting it lol.

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    I was merely commenting on the subject of the thread. One side says the Xbox One will eventually match the PS4 in game performance, the other side says that's impossible due to the specs difference. I'm in the middle with the notion the gap will narrow (but not match or surpass the PS4 due to the specs difference) between the two consoles in game performance when the better drivers come out.

    That's not baseless, that's logical. If the performance is increased due to efficiency in drivers, the performance gap has in fact narrowed. In order for that not to be true, Sony would have to release a performance update that at least matches (and thus nullifies) the performance increase the Xbox One had with it's update.

  11. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatSpaceKoaster View Post
    I was merely commenting on the subject of the thread. One side says the Xbox One will eventually match the PS4 in game performance, the other side says that's impossible due to the specs difference. I'm in the middle with the notion the gap will narrow (but not match or surpass the PS4 due to the specs difference) between the two consoles in game performance when the better drivers come out.

    That's not baseless, that's logical. If the performance is increased due to efficiency in drivers, the performance gap has in fact narrowed. In order for that not to be true, Sony would have to release a performance update that at least matches (and thus nullifies) the performance increase the Xbox One had with it's update.
    the driver update isn't going to bring much of a difference when looking at all things. it might help their 1st party (and exclusives designed for X1) more though.

  12. #211
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    I was pretty certain that the Xbox One does not, in fact, have more usable memory at the moment than the PS4. I think Sufi is right on this..

    Either it was outright stated through clever deduction of materials provided or there was some hinthint nudge nudge going on from developers on the issue. I cannot remember which.
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 01-15-2014 at 16:08.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Sub-stance1 View Post
    I think most of us realize that. Some seem to think this thing is all over after 2 months. xb1 is surely doomed because edge says so.........this time.
    People were saying the same for the PS3 after it had a rough start. It took some time for the turnaround (a little too long IMO) but they did it. They were even able to extend the lifecycle of the console longer than most thought it would be (as did MS).

    I will say that I'm happy to see that Sony focused on the gamer this gen and the PS4 is likely the next gen console that I'm geting. They have turned the tables on MS but as I said (and it looks like you agree) MS isn't going to just stand aside as Sony runs away with this.

    Not to put a damper on this discussion because it is interesting, I honestly doubt that the tech differences between the PS4 and XB1 will be very noticable to the everyday gamer.
    Last edited by Pong; 01-15-2014 at 16:14.

  14. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    I was pretty certain that the Xbox One does not, in fact, have more usable memory at the moment than the PS4. I think Sufi is right on this..

    Either it was outright stated through clever deduction of materials provided or there was some hinthint nudge nudge going on from developers on the issue. I cannot remember which.
    Gaf insiders like thuway said that there are games being made for ps4 that are using more than 6gb right now. They might be optimized near launch to use less, but right now all we can do is speculate from that.
    Last edited by Itachi; 01-15-2014 at 16:25.

  15. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    People were saying the same for the PS3 after it had a rough start. It took some time for the turnaround (a little too long IMO) but they did it. They were even able to extend the lifecycle of the console longer than most thought it would be (as did MS).

    I will say that I'm happy to see that Sony focused on the gamer this gen and the PS4 is likely the next gen console that I'm geting. They have turned the tables on MS but as I said (and it looks like you agree) MS isn't going to just stand aside as Sony runs away with this.

    Not to put a damper on this discussion because it is interesting, I honestly doubt that the tech differences between the PS4 and XB1 will be very noticable to the everyday gamer.
    that's the problem. they won't be noticeable to average gamers. that's where MS wins. that was their whole plan. however, the reason why comparing PS3 to 360 is irrelevant because if the PS3 wasn't a fair amount more powerful than the 360, it would not have caught up. people are assuming that X1 will improve and PS4 will not. even if we were to assume that, it won't close the gap to an unnoticeable amount because it's just far less powerful and less easy to develop for in comparison.

    now if we were comparing a PC hardware to console, yeah, things get trickier and we just don't know what will happen because it's all up to the developers.

    but we're comparing console specs to other console specs, it's very easy to understand how things would turn out. especially since the notion that "it's up to developers" would be more beneficial to Sony than MS anyway. Sony not only has the track record, they still retain their best developers (with industry awards in technical achievement) whereas MS effectively conducted their own brain drain.

    whichever way you look at it, it's not going to change the gap. in fact, the more these games are going to push the consoles in the future, the more this difference will show. because again, think about the ease of development, X1 is always going to run into issues whereas PS4 will just zoom by.

    if people understood even a gist of this, we wouldn't have pages of discussion. it's because people keep bringing up the same things over and over again and do not want to retain any information that goes against those points. and yet the same people claim that it's not power, it's games...ok, no disagreement there. but then stop saying that the gap will close, if you don't know much about the facts and precedence.

    /thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    that's the problem. they won't be noticeable to average gamers. that's where MS wins. that was their whole plan. however, the reason why comparing PS3 to 360 is irrelevant because if the PS3 wasn't a fair amount more powerful than the 360, it would not have caught up. people are assuming that X1 will improve and PS4 will not. even if we were to assume that, it won't close the gap to an unnoticeable amount because it's just far less powerful and less easy to develop for in comparison.

    now if we were comparing a PC hardware to console, yeah, things get trickier and we just don't know what will happen because it's all up to the developers.

    but we're comparing console specs to other console specs, it's very easy to understand how things would turn out. especially since the notion that "it's up to developers" would be more beneficial to Sony than MS anyway. Sony not only has the track record, they still retain their best developers (with industry awards in technical achievement) whereas MS effectively conducted their own brain drain.

    whichever way you look at it, it's not going to change the gap. in fact, the more these games are going to push the consoles in the future, the more this difference will show. because again, think about the ease of development, X1 is always going to run into issues whereas PS4 will just zoom by.

    if people understood even a gist of this, we wouldn't have pages of discussion. it's because people keep bringing up the same things over and over again and do not want to retain any information that goes against those points. and yet the same people claim that it's not power, it's games...ok, no disagreement there. but then stop saying that the gap will close, if you don't know much about the facts and precedence.

    /thread
    MS is not winning now, lol. I doubt they expected Sony to release the PS4 with these specs and that is why they are spinning things (PR-wise) and looking for other ways to sell their console.

    It will come down to the games - both exclusive and multi-plats. Sony looks to have the advantage in both categories at this point but MS has deep pockets and can surprise with new exclusive IPs, timed exclusives of multi-plats, etc.

    I'm on the fence leaning heavily toward the PS4 at this point. My old phat PS3 is going strong though and I still haven't played TLoU. E3 this year should help me make my decision if I haven't made it by then.

  17. #216
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    EDGE: Xbox ONE's gaming capabilities compromised and frustrating.

    This is the last I heard.

    Ps4= 4.5gb plus 512mb pageable via o/s giving access to 5gb at any point and a total of 5.5gb.

    XBO=3gb for o/s , 5gb for games.

    I have never heard otherwise, and in real performance terms the XBO has more actual addressable memory immediately available to devs. There is also nothing stopping them creating pageble memory.


    Again if someone has newer info, i'd like to hear it but in real terms they appear to be almost
    the same, give or take a 512mb pagebale memory table.




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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    This is the last I heard.

    Ps4= 4.5gb plus 512mb pageable via o/s giving access to 5gb at any point and a total of 5.5gb.

    XBO=3gb for o/s , 5gb for games.

    I have never heard otherwise, and in real performance terms the XBO has more actual addressable memory immediately available to devs. There is also nothing stopping them creating pageble memory.


    Again if someone has newer info, i'd like to hear it but in real terms they appear to be almost
    the same, give or take a 512mb pagebale memory table.


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    something is wrong with your maths. 4.5 + .5 does not equal to 5.5 total.

    even if we were to assume that it was less than 5GB, you're still comparing a slow and capped RAM to a faster, overall twice the badwidth RAM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    MS is not winning now, lol. I doubt they expected Sony to release the PS4 with these specs and that is why they are spinning things (PR-wise) and looking for other ways to sell their console.

    It will come down to the games - both exclusive and multi-plats. Sony looks to have the advantage in both categories at this point but MS has deep pockets and can surprise with new exclusive IPs, timed exclusives of multi-plats, etc.

    I'm on the fence leaning heavily toward the PS4 at this point. My old phat PS3 is going strong though and I still haven't played TLoU. E3 this year should help me make my decision if I haven't made it by then.
    by winning, i mean that they know that most people will not notice or care about the differences. even hardcores will be in denial. so that's a win for MS. that's how Sony won with the PS2. people thought PS2 was more powerful than the Xbox. they firmly believed that the vertex shaders were the best things since sliced bread and emotion engine was some sort of alien tech.

    the reality was that PS2 did sport a lot of games where it made it look more powerful. i mean, come on, MGS2 was $#@!ing amazing. it looked insane. still has the best thunderstorm i've ever seen. STILL! go youtube that intro, you'll see.

    it ran like crap on the Xbox though and that makes people think, well, Xbox just ain't that powerful. the reality was that it was a port, it didn't take advantage of the Xbox. Even halo did not, Halo was a PC game, transformed into an Xbox one. Halo 2 actually looked better in some aspects because it was more focused towards the console's strengths but failed in design aspects because well, how many games really do better than their first success? not many.

    Halo still beat any game on PS2 by far...by far.

    so PS4 is not only the Xbox here, it has the development support. it's only a matter of time before people are going to be quiet. Xbox does not have the momentum that PS has at the moment, and i'm only talking about the development-side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    by winning, i mean that they know that most people will not notice or care about the differences. even hardcores will be in denial. so that's a win for MS. that's how Sony won with the PS2. people thought PS2 was more powerful than the Xbox. they firmly believed that the vertex shaders were the best things since sliced bread and emotion engine was some sort of alien tech.

    the reality was that PS2 did sport a lot of games where it made it look more powerful. i mean, come on, MGS2 was $#@!ing amazing. it looked insane. still has the best thunderstorm i've ever seen. STILL! go youtube that intro, you'll see.

    it ran like crap on the Xbox though and that makes people think, well, Xbox just ain't that powerful. the reality was that it was a port, it didn't take advantage of the Xbox. Even halo did not, Halo was a PC game, transformed into an Xbox one. Halo 2 actually looked better in some aspects because it was more focused towards the console's strengths but failed in design aspects because well, how many games really do better than their first success? not many.

    Halo still beat any game on PS2 by far...by far.

    so PS4 is not only the Xbox here, it has the development support. it's only a matter of time before people are going to be quiet. Xbox does not have the momentum that PS has at the moment, and i'm only talking about the development-side.
    Information access has changed A LOT since the days of PS2 though. Anyone is going to have a hell of a time selling alien tech nowadays when you have a number of sites and forums tearing apart every spec of a console and word stated by the maker. There are even sites like lensoftruth.com now that take analysis a step further. The PS4/XB1 multi-plats will be compared pixel by pixel and most cases, the PS4 should come out ahead (based on specs it should). Outside of the resolution and fps advantages, some advantages can be created with functionality that is not offered on the other console. I assume that is where XB1 is focused because they have already lost the spec war.

    EDIT - and yes, development support is key. That comes from potential sales (number of consoles in the market) or having a truckload of cash given to them.
    Last edited by Pong; 01-15-2014 at 17:53.

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    EDGE: Xbox ONE's gaming capabilities compromised and frustrating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    something is wrong with your maths. 4.5 + .5 does not equal to 5.5 total.

    even if we were to assume that it was less than 5GB, you're still comparing a slow and capped RAM to a faster, overall twice the badwidth RAM.
    Probably because you dont know what pageable memory is. The 4.5gb is always available. The 512mb o/s allocated pageable
    memory can "page out" to the hard drive, ie you can read either page 1 or page 2 of the same memory address giving you 512mb x2.
    When the other page is required the hard drive writes the current 512mb to the hard drive, then reads in the other 512mb. Its not ideal but it is a way of extending memory, PC's use it all the time, but performance takes a hit.

    As for speed, again, the last I heard the XBO has faster memory access to CPU and GPGPU, by about 50%. So i have no idea why you keep referring to speed advantage in terms GPGPU Compute functions.

    The raw speed advantage the Ps4 GDDR5 gives is when reading to and from the GPU only.



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    Last edited by mynd; 01-15-2014 at 18:18.

  21. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Probably because you dont know what pageable memory is. The 4.5gb is always available. The 512mb o/s allocated pageable
    memory can "page out" to the hard drive, ie you can read either page 1 or page 2 of the same memory address giving you 512mb x2.
    When the other page is required the hard drive writes the current 512mb to the hard drive, then reads in the other 512mb. Its not ideal but it is a way of extending memory, PC's use it all the time, but performance takes a hit.
    lol i do know what pageable memory is. what you're doing wrong there is that you're adding that pageable memory 2x when really you can't do that because once that memory is on the HDD, it's not really part of the RAM anymore or in the same sense or the advantage it provides. you would have to clear out the 512MBs of RAM in order to put that memory back so adding it twice is incorrect and doesn't represent that correctly.

    actually the rumor states that it's 1GB of flexible memory.

    here's what Sony states about the flex memory:

    “Flexible Memory” is memory managed by the PS4 OS on the game’s behalf, and allows games to use some very nice FreeBSD virtual memory functionality. However this memory is 100% the game’s memory, and is never used by the OS, and as it is the game’s memory it should be easy for every developer to use it.

    so while it is pageable memory, it's not in the sense you think it is. it's also only for the video games.

    As for speed, again, the last I heard the XBO has faster memory access to CPU and GPGPU, by about 50%. So i have no idea why you keep referring to speed advantage in terms GPGPU Compute functions.

    The raw speed advantage the Ps4 GDDR5 gives is when reading to and from the GPU only.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    i did not talk about the GPGPU functions, where did you get that? and i don't know the bandwidth or knowledge about it so i wouldn't talk about it anyway.

  22. #221
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    He's referring to the fact that the jaguar CPU in the Xbox One has 30GB/s worth of bandwidth to memory vs 20GB/s for PS4.

    Though I was under the impression that most CPU's, including high end i7's, rarely ever use more than 20GB/s anyway most of the time? That's what keeps being said over and over again at B3D- though obviously some skepticism of what they have to say isn't unreasonable at this point.


  23. #222
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    so how does that help with the GPGPU functions?

  24. #223
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    I thought the ps4 is more capable of doing gpgpu?

    Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by YoungMullah88 View Post
    I thought the ps4 is more capable of doing gpgpu? Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk
    But XBO has dat wizard $#@!.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mistercrow View Post
    But XBO has dat wizard $#@!.
    And a stacked chip. The possibilities are endless.

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