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  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typical guy View Post
    I find it odd that you guys are actually defending criminals and the defrauding of the public.
    http://readwrite.com/2009/10/05/ftc_...ou0miel0o7NjRD
    What freebies do they get? smh




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    What freebies do they get? smh
    Cash payment? smh too

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    Quote Originally Posted by Typical guy View Post
    I find it odd that you guys are actually defending criminals and the defrauding of the public.
    http://readwrite.com/2009/10/05/ftc_...ou0miel0o7NjRD
    Do you know the definition of freebies?
    It all so centers around the definition of endorsement.

    If I thought these videos where endorsing MS or XBOX or any particular game, then Id say it was illegal yes.

    I don think these constitute endorsement. No one is defending anything, just saying from a legal point of view, you may have a hard time proving this is a form of endorsement. It was also run in UK/Eu not in America BTW, which makes it subject to their laws, I have no idea what they are.
    Last edited by mynd; 01-26-2014 at 00:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Do you know the definition of freebies?
    Why are you zeroing in on that? You realize that payola can be goods, services, cash, etc right? It's like you see an article talking about one type of payola and suddenly CASH ISN'T PAYLO!!!! Give me a break. Either you guys are some of the most naive people I've ever seen or you're being purposely difficult and I know you're not stupid.

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  7. #280
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    Look at thi spoint in the actual difintiion.

    One commenter stated that defining endorsements based on a subjective measure of consumer understanding – that is, by the sole criterion of whether consumers are likely to believe thestatement reflects the views of the endorser, rather than that of advertiser – creates inherent uncertainty.
    They were paid to "this is on xbox one"
    Now, if you can argue that it was infact , MS saying this is on XBOX ONE, and not the blogger then go for it, but I'm pretty sure most people will believe it the bloggers opinion that it is on Xbox One.

    In fcat those guidelines you posted are saying exactly what we have been saying. Its a grey area.

    As set forth below, after considering the observations provided by various commenters, the Commission is setting forth a construct for analyzing whether or not consumer-generated content falls within the definition of an endorsement in Section 255.0(b) of the Guides. The Commission will, of course, consider each use of these new media on a case- by-case basis for purposes of law enforcement, as it does with all advertising.

    Furthermore...

    The Commission does not believe that all uses of new consumer-generated media todiscuss product attributes or consumer experiences should be deemed “endorsements” within themeaning of the Guides. Rather, in analyzing statements made via these new media, the fundamental question is whether, viewed objectively, the relationship between the advertiser and the speaker is such that the speaker’s statement can be considered “sponsored” by the advertiser and therefore an “advertising message.”
    As I said, you would have to actually find a video where by you feel the blogger was being swayed. We have not found one.

    In other words, in disseminating positive statements about a product or service, is the speaker: (1) acting solely independently, in which case there isno endorsement, or (2) acting on behalf of the advertiser or its agent, such that the speaker’sstatement is an “endorsement” that is part of an overall marketing campaign?
    Is saying "Im playing this on xbox one" a positive statement?

    Really?
    Last edited by mynd; 01-26-2014 at 00:31.

  8. #281
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    Everything in these guidelines requires some form of review or opinion. ffs, this isn't hard to understand. Gimme a few more minutes. I'm on page 72 out of 81.




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    so they're dancing around the legal bounds. a loophole, sure. you don't want to push that or the FTC would take notice. that's likely why they backed off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    so they're dancing around the legal bounds. a loophole, sure. you don't want to push that or the FTC would take notice. that's likely why they backed off.
    Pretty much, as far as I can tell, if someone had said positive glowing things in these videos that people felt were not their opinion, then that particular transaction/contract would be deemed in breach, but not the whole scheme itself.

    In other words, it opens them up to the possibility of some individual video blogger over stepping the mark.

    No wonder they backed off it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Pretty much, as far as I can tell, if someone had said positive glowing things in these videos that people felt were not their opinion, then that particular transaction/contract would be deemed in breach, but not the whole scheme itself.

    In other words, it opens them up to the possibility of some individual video blogger over stepping the mark.

    No wonder they backed off it.
    but i mean, isn't that what the whole point was? you can't do negative ones...soo...there's only neutral or positive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    but i mean, isn't that what the whole point was? you can't do negative ones...soo...there's only neutral or positive.
    Only in regards to reviews, most of these are simply footage. E.g. A lap of Forza.
    Again, these guidelines look at each case on their own merits.
    As Ive been saying all along, you'd have to find a video that fit the "payola" bill. None that I have found constitute endorsement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    but i mean, isn't that what the whole point was? you can't do negative ones...soo...there's only neutral or positive.
    or none at all. Man, if you go through all the guidelines that were linked to earlier, we wouldn't have had more than a page or two of this lol. I'll break it down, in short; I'm right.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    or none at all. Man, if you go through all the guidelines that were linked to earlier, we wouldn't have had more than a page or two of this lol. I'll break it down, in short; I'm right.
    and yet the problem is that they aren't allowed to make a negative comment. that point still stands. if they had allowed them to do so, this wouldn't have become an ordeal. (because then you'd have to reveal your sponsor, which was also another problem)

    oh i wasn't arguing about endorsement and stuff. i know they're playing the legal game here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    and yet the problem is that they aren't allowed to make a negative comment. that point still stands. if they had allowed them to do so, this wouldn't have become an ordeal. (because then you'd have to reveal your sponsor, which was also another problem)

    oh i wasn't arguing about endorsement and stuff. i know they're playing the legal game here.
    I don't see it as a problem. The agreement wasn't for reviews, impressions, opinions, praises, etc. It was quite clear. Play a game on xbox, and tell the viewers that you are playing a game on the xbox; don't say bad $#@!. Tag the video. Done. This was blown way out...




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    Could have been the thin edge of the wedge though, I'm glad this sort of thing has come out.
    I'm no fan of "social media" marketing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I don't see it as a problem. The agreement wasn't for reviews, impressions, opinions, praises, etc. It was quite clear. Play a game on xbox, and tell the viewers that you are playing a game on the xbox; don't say bad $#@!. Tag the video. Done. This was blown way out...
    you don't see a problem because you're not interpreting it correctly. you don't have to say anything, sure but you can't say anything negative, generally people will make comments and generally comments are get higher hits aren't "neutral". This is the science behind it. You are leading your "helpers" (for the lack of a better word) to say things that are positive. You get more money for more views. You are going to say positive things in order to get that money. and you can't say anything about being paid...so people will trust in you as if it were your opinions.

    it's just a cleverly designed scam and had it taken off, it was likely that FTC was going to come in and make some more house rules. not blown out of proportion but it could've been a lot more and since they have backed down, we're wasting our time here.

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  19. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    you don't see a problem because you're not interpreting it correctly. you don't have to say anything, sure but you can't say anything negative, generally people will make comments and generally comments are get higher hits aren't "neutral". This is the science behind it. You are leading your "helpers" (for the lack of a better word) to say things that are positive. You get more money for more views. You are going to say positive things in order to get that money. and you can't say anything about being paid...so people will trust in you as if it were your opinions.

    it's just a cleverly designed scam and had it taken off, it was likely that FTC was going to come in and make some more house rules. not blown out of proportion but it could've been a lot more and since they have backed down, we're wasting our time here.
    I think you're assuming way too much here. I'm in line with a couple guys that get 3 to 4k hits per video, never saying anything about the Xbox One. They have been doing videos for the past 5 years, never saying anything about the consoles.

    The FTC just can't come in and make new rules.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I think you're assuming way too much here. I'm in line with a couple guys that get 3 to 4k hits per video, never saying anything about the Xbox One. They have been doing videos for the past 5 years, never saying anything about the consoles.
    you've completely lost me there. we're talking about a policy by a company that can potentially exploit the system. that has nothing to do with which segment you were talking about. you look at the potential issues with a policy, not a certain situation or through a narrow context.
    The FTC just can't come in and make new rules.
    you're wrong there. not only they have done that in the very recent past. they do look at it case-by-case.

  21. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    you've completely lost me there. we're talking about a policy by a company that can potentially exploit the system. that has nothing to do with which segment you were talking about. you look at the potential issues with a policy, not a certain situation or through a narrow context.

    you're wrong there. not only they have done that in the very recent past. they do look at it case-by-case.
    Sure they can amend, update, rules... they can't just come in and do it. So no...




  22. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Sure they can amend, update, rules... they can't just come in and do it. So no...
    if it were a big enough issue, yes they can come in and do it. that's what amendment/update would mean.

    they did with the bloggers not too long ago. they can do this too, again, if it were big enough or especially if it had caught on. i suppose they would take notice of bigger companies more because if they can do it, so will the little guys.

    http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press...s-testimonials

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    if it were a big enough issue, yes they can come in and do it. that's what amendment/update would mean.

    they did with the bloggers not too long ago. they can do this too, again, if it were big enough or especially if it had caught on. i suppose they would take notice of bigger companies more because if they can do it, so will the little guys.

    http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press...s-testimonials
    Yes, the can, but they don't just come in and change the rules lol. Anyways, mountain/mole hill.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    or none at all. Man, if you go through all the guidelines that were linked to earlier, we wouldn't have had more than a page or two of this lol. I'll break it down, in short; I'm right.
    You're far from being right. If you were, Microsoft wouldn't have distanced themselves from it.
    Last edited by sainraja; 01-26-2014 at 03:35.

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    Sorry, I can't help myself so I am back in the discussion.

    If Microsoft didn't back out and went through with this (is it still being run by Machinima?), do you really think a group of people as a whole stating they are playing a game on an Xbox One wouldn't have any influence?

    Let's stop getting hung up on the word endorsement; the intent of the campaign was to influence people. It's all about mind share. That is why they are willing to pay people to do it. This is not some contest they were running.

    The more people view videos of people playing games on the Xbox One, the more likely they are to get an Xbox One -- because in their eyes, based on the videos they've seen on youtube, they will think that's what's popular.

    Microsoft's goal was to get mindshare and you don't always need a celebrity to say something about your product. Sometimes something as simple as getting a group of vloggers to say "playing on the Xbox One" is enough to do the same thing getting a celebrity would.

    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    I think you're assuming way too much here. I'm in line with a couple guys that get 3 to 4k hits per video, never saying anything about the Xbox One. They have been doing videos for the past 5 years, never saying anything about the consoles.

    The FTC just can't come in and make new rules.
    If you are not participating in this campaign why would FTC have anything to say to you?

    They would go to the people running the campaign.

    They were paid to "this is on xbox one"
    Now, if you can argue that it was infact , MS saying this is on XBOX ONE, and not the blogger then go for it, but I'm pretty sure most people will believe it the bloggers opinion that it is on Xbox One.

    Microsoft / Machinima are the ones requesting them to say it. They wouldn't be eligible otherwise. You can't really use that as a point against what he was saying at all.
    Last edited by sainraja; 01-26-2014 at 03:34. Reason: ended up quoting mynd, but was speaking in general

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    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    You're far from being right. If you were, Microsoft wouldn't have distanced themselves from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by sainraja View Post
    Sorry, I can't help myself so I am back in the discussion.

    If Microsoft didn't back out and went through with this (is it still being run by Machinima?), do you really think a group of people as a whole stating they are playing a game on an Xbox One wouldn't have any influence?

    Let's stop getting hung up on the word endorsement; the intent of the campaign was to influence people. It's all about mind share. That is why they are willing to pay people to do it. This is not some contest they were running.

    The more people view videos of people playing games on the Xbox One, the more likely they are to get an Xbox One -- because in their eyes, based on the videos they've seen on youtube, they will think that's what's popular.

    Microsoft's goal was to get mindshare and you don't always need a celebrity to say something about your product. Sometimes something as simple as getting a group of vloggers to say "playing on the Xbox One" is enough to do the same thing getting a celebrity would.



    If you are not participating in this campaign why would FTC have anything to say to you?

    They would go to the people running the campaign.


    Microsoft / Machinima are the ones requesting them to say it. They wouldn't be eligible otherwise. You can't really use that as a point against what he was saying at all.
    That is a long string of assumptions.




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Yes, the can, but they don't just come in and change the rules lol. Anyways, mountain/mole hill.
    of course. i know that. that's why i said that if it had gone out of hand, they would. meaning, if it were a big enough deal. also they did state that they would look at thing case-by-case which means there isn't enough precedence in this area and I'm sure MS doesn't want to be a precedence, hence, again, why they backed out. we can continue to ignore all of these points but they still do not mean that they weren't completely ok with what they were doing. it's a grey area, it hasn't been talked about much and they're purposely dancing around the legal limits, a billion dollar corporation doing something like this, hell yes it's going to create precedence.

    you're right, it is a mole hill, it never became into a mountain, but here we're still talking about it lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    That is a long string of assumptions.
    I am not saying the campaign would have been successful in doing that (it already isn't, since it's not being run anymore, I mean, you have to realize that I understand that.)

    I am talking about the intent of the campaign and if it was successful; that was their goal. They wouldn't allow a group of people to participate and pay them if their goal wasn't mind share -- which is what it was [mind share was the goal.]

    You're entire argument has been that all they were simply asking people to do was saying they are playing it on the Xbox One. Well, duh! You are missing the big picture (either purposefully or you really don't see it.)

    If people participated and said they are using the Xbox One. What I said is exactly what would have happened -- how many people viewing the video with people using the Xbox One would know these people were paid to do it?

    You can look the other way. It doesn't take away from the point I am making.
    Last edited by sainraja; 01-26-2014 at 03:49.

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