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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Err, its never meant that. I fi I have 12mb of ram and another system has 12mb, I have the same resources available.
    I think you mean to say that you can make more use of the resources? I'd agree with that statement, but "less resources" isn't really true. I'd even go so far as to say less "available resources" in terms of the whole 2 os thing.
    that's what i've been saying by stating that GDDR5 is better and faster.

    In this thread?
    nope.

    Its being used, just not in game, at the very least, everything that we've been told about it would not indicate that it would be used in game and a available to devs.
    Again, whatever is helping the APU with taking off its stress is helping it. that fact isn't going to change no matter what it's being used for. the only thing that would change it if it's helping with something that X1 already has in the hardware on top of everything else. it doesn't as far as we know.

    Its 8gb and it's there on board, it's storage, probably for the o/s.
    If I had to speculate what the 256mb on the ARM chip was for well, its it's memory access, and probably where it stores all the background download buffer, then CRC checks it before dumping it in the main memory.
    Again, that's all information they don't need to put into the 8GB pool, regardless of how you slice it, they don't have to dedicate that space onto the 8GB RAM, which means more available for games.

    The goal is to get low power state, and background downloads running of it, so you system updates with very low power, that's what its going to be used for, they haven't got it right yet, but I imagine they will.
    When you system, I i imagine it still doe sit main task, which is periodically check for updates and download them in the background.
    we can keep talking about it but the same rule applies, if it's taking some of the work off the main APU, that is extra resources available for the system. and having dedicated memory/processor means uninterrupted data access. so not only you're not messing with the more important (than DDR3) GDDR5, you're taking work off it.

    Err...."The actual texture resolution though, this favors the PS4, whether that be through the number of textures applied to a model, or simply higher res textures."
    what are you quoting here?

    Its all going tbe trade offs, your not going to see all of these things at once. The one thing I generally assumed when I did my hypothesis was that any extra ommph wouldn't just go into framerate. It never factored into what I was thinking but look at it this way, with the PS4 the devs will have a choice...
    it doesn't matter that these things aren't going to be seen at once. that's such a broad statement that it's moot. you can have a stupid developer that can have a slightly lower resolution and a slightly less fps and slightly less texture resolution/details. that is dependent on the developer. i shouldn't say stupid because their job is to make the best product possible. if they feel that they had the optimal res with the optimal fps and the optimal details and textures then we can't argue with that. they made that choice because they felt it was the best they could.

    TR developer could've easily chosen all of those things but they instead took the big hit on the fps because they felt it was the best way to go and with certain details, AA, filter and the textures because they figured people wouldn't notice that except maybe the diehards. i can totally understand that.

    the point about it all is that "overall", the PS4 version is coming out roughly around 40%+ if looking at the overall performance differences. i'm trying to be a little conservative here. 29 avg vs 50 avg is a huge performance difference by itself. your statements previously made minimized these forecasts. from your statements, it seems like we were going to have slight differences like we did on the 360/PS3, in fact, you had stated/implied this several times. even this thread! Far from the truth.

    Better:

    1/ frame rate
    2/resolution
    3 /extra effect (inc. textures)

    They can pick one, maybe even 2 but probably not all three.
    pointless and vague.

    That generally goes without saying about exclusives, I'm not sure "drastic" but we will see.
    Do you think TR is a drastic difference? if not, that's fine, but think of it this way, multiplats are actually "NOT" a good indicator of power difference.but if we're seeing such a huge gap between performance (up to about 50%) then it is a very good indicator that exclusives that take full advantage of the consoles, will show a bigger difference. again, for those that don't understand, both consoles will show amazing graphics compared to their "multiplat counterparts" but PS4 will show significantly more improved graphics in comparison to the X1 exclusives. it doesn't mean that X1 games won't look good or that they will be ugly.

    this is going to show more as we progress. again, Sony has the support, MS does not, so far and that trend is highly to continue.

    As I say, devs will choose which one they use.
    not until i said it lol.

    Umm, its still "virtual" you dont have to swap bank, and they will be a HUGE advantage if you don't, but that that leave syou with 5gb, the same as I said, as the XBO.

    I haven't heard anyone say the XBO use anything except "around" 3gb or less for the 2nd o/s.

    Im not denying anything, PS4=4.5gb +512 o/s allowed (with option to page swap it for a 2nd 512).
    XBO=5gb+
    So again, there has never been a suggestion that the PS4 has more ram available, that's simply untrue.
    I know it's virtual, my point is that it's likely better having it than not. you're still doing the math wrong though. PS4 has 5GB available but that extra 512MB is virtual. It's not 4.5GBs.

    Well god help devs if they have use the ARM chip.
    i don't get this comment. it will help out the APU, i can't see it being a bad thing. also, i didn't think the devs could use it anyway, the point is that it's taking some of the work load off the APU. why is that difficult to understand?

    you arguing the speed beifnits CPU based tasks such as "bigger worlds" etc, thats all based on the amount of ram available, not the speed anyway, and again, I don't see how extra speed gives you a bigger world?
    let me reiterate: “It means we don’t have to worry so much about stuff, the fact that the memory operates at around 172GB/s is amazing, so we can swap stuff in and our as fast as we can without it really causing us much grief."

    Could you please give me a tutorial on how big worlds are made? They are not all there at once right? That's why GDDR5 will help make it better. because you can swap stuff in and out quickly. that's pretty basic. fast things are better than slow things at moving and taking up space. who is going to get more cars through a parking lot? someone who does it faster or slower?

    You said it, maybe you should have said more powerful per clock.
    i was tired.

    I'd agree the both start at certain levels (and the XBO is definitely behind in power no matter what), I also agree that the first thing MS does is dilute what power they significantly. I would argue that Sony's creating specialized attributes towards gaming, cause I don't know what that means.
    meaning that they are making efforts to relieve some of the stress off the APU and the RAM by dedicated hardware to it, giving it faster specs and not taking away from it to dedicate it to non-gaming tasks. Sony is doing the opposite of what MS is doing.

    I didn't disagree with that ever.
    It does have a stronger/faster bandwidth link between all systems.
    It does have a much more powerful dedicated sound chip.
    It does have some extra black box hardware designed to help out.
    All of those things are things not in the PS4. DO they help resolution or graphics, hell no.
    ok thank you because i was going to ask you how that is helping with the game development.

    I dont agree extra bandwidth is going to make "biigger more persitant worlds'

    And you taking them out of context, they aren't referring to anything in terms of making persistent worlds, in fact Id go so far as to say, that what they are saying is, again to do with rendering graphics.

    This may sound like I'm down playing the GPU advantage, but I really aren't, its quite obvious to see it in the titles we have so far had. But I really disagree that these "resources" are going to result in bigger more persistent worlds as an advantage over the XBO in multiplatform games.
    I already explained that earlier. MMOs sort of work by streaming data constantly. They can't have the entire world created and filled into the RAM, it wouldn't run on most people's PCs. They have to quickly swap in and out data or you will run into severe pop-up pop-in issues and yes, like you said, redering graphics, in which case they would need to be degraded. I would think that in order to display those details and such as well as things like the draw distance, is what is dictated by the GPU.
    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Yes, this is how understand it as well.
    I really am not sure where the xbo having less ram came from.


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    nope, you wrote earlier that X1 had 5GB while PS4 had 4.5GB. that's not true. PS4 has 5GB + 512MB virtual RAM. Even if you take out the virtual RAM, PS4 still has more resources available due to the faster GDDR5 spec.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post

    nope, you wrote earlier that X1 had 5GB while PS4 had 4.5GB. that's not true. PS4 has 5GB + 512MB virtual RAM. Even if you take out the virtual RAM, PS4 still has more resources available due to the faster GDDR5 spec.
    Is it combined resources, or individually counted?

    More cpu resources, ram, gpu, etc. ? Or all rolled into one?




  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Is it combined resources, or individually counted?

    More cpu resources, ram, gpu, etc. ? Or all rolled into one?
    just speaking about RAM, it has more resources to play with (including the fact that it's faster so you have more space as soon as you don't need that part of the data, something X1 will struggle with in comparison). even if PS4 had 4.5GB of RAM, it would still have more. however, it does have far more resources when it comes to the GPU, then a little when it comes to the CPU then the fact that it doesn't need to dedicate any amount (which is where X1 starts to go downwards in resources) such as CPU cores, GPU/RAM for Kinect, and the PS4 actually has something to help with the background tasks with its own dedicated RAM.

    i may refer to that as more resources available but in that specific part, i was talking about the RAM by itself.

  4. #154
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    Ok, so do they have the same amount of ram?




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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Ok, so do they have the same amount of ram?
    same amount and available for games yes. but that's like saying that a beamer is the same size as a camry. that doesn't explain anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F34R View Post
    Ok, so do they have the same amount of ram?
    Same capacity but one performs better than the other. Imagine you're filling a child's paddling pool with water from a hose. If you can increase the water pressure you'll fill the pool quicker but the hose will remain the same size..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    same amount and available for games yes. but that's like saying that a beamer is the same size as a camry. that doesn't explain anything.
    It explains plenty. I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page.

    The way I look at it is... just as you said. The same amount. Now, that being said, obviously the PS4 has faster resources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malt View Post
    Same capacity but one performs better than the other. Imagine you're filling a child's paddling pool with water from a hose. If you can increase the water pressure you'll fill the pool quicker but the hose will remain the same size..
    Same but faster... that's where I was.




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  9. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/6972/x...-playstation-4

    Ram PS4 by significant bit.

    Tflop PS4 by huge margin.

    CPU slightly Xbox One.

    ROP, etc etc. PS4.


    http://ps4daily.com/2013/11/playstat...dedicated-ram/

    Secondary Processor with 256 mb.

    "As mentioned before, the secondary CPU deals with minor tasks such as downloads, voice chat, and video transcoding. All of that frees up resources from the main CPU, which is used for games."

    While all those task are done on Xbox One's main processor.
    Beofre you start telling us what the XBO has, you best learn about it.
    It has a separate sound processor on board that has the equivalent processing power of an extra CPU and thats just for sound and compression!


    Nothing to do with the main CPU.

    Did you factor in move engines with black box hardware zlib compresison jpeg decompresison etc etc? Nope.
    I don't know what you are about. Reports seem pretty consistent. Xbox One is weaker overall in general.
    Refer to my post above, you dont appear to know anythign about this system.
    You are bringing up stronger "audio chip". Dude for real? Thats your excuse to why Xbox isnt as weak? PS4 audio chip does fine as is. Xbox One require stronger one for Kinect. Big deal.
    Well accdorindg ot you, the PS4 needs an extra chip to do its work, so it cant be just fine now can it?
    you cant say it helps out then say it doenst need help.
    Doesnt change the fact that it is weaker overall.
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Beofre you start telling us what the XBO has, you best learn about it.
    It has a separate sound processor on board that has the equivalent processing power of an extra CPU and thats just for sound and compression!
    Nothing to do with the main CPU.

    Did you factor in move engines with black box hardware zlib compresison jpeg decompresison etc etc? Nope.

    Refer to my post above, you dont appear to know anythign about this system.

    Well accdorindg ot you, the PS4 needs an extra chip to do its work, so it cant be just fine now can it?
    you cant say it helps out then say it doenst need help.
    what do the move engines do? how does the sound chip help with development? does the PS4 not have its own sound chip?

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    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayS...specifications

    Just thought I would throw these in.
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_One



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    Last edited by chrisw26308; 02-04-2014 at 02:37.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    what do the move engines do?
    Their primary goal is to alleviate the GPU from having to do some work, but can also alleviate compression work on the CPU's.
    how does the sound chip help with development?
    Sound is doneo n a dedicated chip freeing up the CPU and GPU cycles.
    does the PS4 not have its own sound chip?
    It has one dedicated to compression decompression only.
    To quote Cerny "The principal thing that it does is that it compresses and decompresses audio streams, various formats. So some of that is for the games – you’ll have many, many audio streams in MP3 or another format and the hardware will take care of that for you."
    Its not so much a sound chip as a compression/decompression chip (similar to MS's move engine zlib decompression). Think of it as chip that turns you zip files into normal files. ( in this case a compressed file into a pcm wave file).

    It also does have the ability to do audio work on the GPU again Cerny..."If you look at how the GPU and its various sub-components are utilised throughout the frame, there are many portions throughout the frame - for example during the rendering of opaque shadowmaps - that the bulk of the GPU is unused. And so if you're doing compute for collision detection, physics or ray-casting for audio during those times you're not really affecting the graphics. You're utilising portions of the GPU that at that instant are otherwise under-utilised. "
    This is the basis for AMD's True-Audio, which is what Sony based there work on. In other words, the GPU does your sounds for you. This differs from having a dedicated CPU cores (Tensilca cores) of the XBO, that don't use the GPU at all.

    So it does not have a true audio chip.
    Audio effects are done on the CPU or GPU.

    Digital Foundry: More advanced surround - is this also something you'd be using GPU compute for?

    Mark Cerny: So the GPU is a natural place to do a number of different types of audio processing. It really does come down though to the amount of parallelisation that is natural to perform for that algorithm, and that does vary greatly depending on what you are doing specifically in your audio processing. I think that as you go forward we will see a hybrid approach in a couple of years where certain aspects of the audio are being done on GPU.
    Last edited by mynd; 02-04-2014 at 03:36.
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  14. #162
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    ok interesting, i know that sound would also leave resources for the APU, i did not know that PS4 didn't have its own dedicated chip.

    how much of this is going to be substantial, remains to be seen however. it would be interesting to see how much of those resources will make a difference.

    i'd be curious to see what the move engines would do. seems like exclusives might benefit more from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sufi View Post
    ok interesting, i know that sound would also leave resources for the APU, i did not know that PS4 didn't have its own dedicated chip.

    how much of this is going to be substantial, remains to be seen however. it would be interesting to see how much of those resources will make a difference.

    i'd be curious to see what the move engines would do. seems like exclusives might benefit more from it.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating this is some magic bullet, but it does help out, nothing is going to help out in terms of raw GPU power, that ship has sailed. But it is wrong to suggest every componant of the XBO system is somehow deficient when it comes to comparing it the the PS4. SOme of those strenghts have little to do with gaming however. And that dual o/s thing.....

    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    The thing about 3D positional audio sampling is that the GPU is needed to calculate the effects of soundwave reflections off of the environment. Depending on your interest in integrating this, it can get heady.
    A concussion blast making things reverberate and the sounds of the reflections across surfaces. a rock concert or other things. Just the sounds of a radio blasting in one room as you walk through the environment past open windows and doors.
    The GPU has to sample and calculate that. At some point that data is sent back and either the waveform/sound is masked.
    More GPU involved in much of the sound engine than the sound chip in such cases.
    Sound chip won't matter much in Sonic 2015, which i'm guessing runs at 1080p on each machine.
    GPU would matter more in Phoned In War Shooter 2014: Insert Rehashed Title which will be the hot new game for 5 minutes.
    Where does Microsoft's chip give a few gigaflop back to the system? Can it assist with this data?

    I AM more familiar with the Move engines and I don't think the developers are not really getting the hang of them, causing more issues.
    I still love this $#@!.
    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/di...one-architects

    Wow, we have 8 Memory Modules on 4 8MB groups of ESRAM. And that all lives in the memory pool together. That means we can read and write to ESRAM simultaneously, that doubles our bandwidth! You can have your sky in DDR3 and other things in ESRAM etc and so forth.

    These aholes aren't describing a friendly system nor one that necessarily works well with alot of game scenarios.
    It's always amusing to see them clinging for a technical reason.
    We have 204GB/S because we have more than one Memory Chip or Module. Thats wonderful, how much memory management do I have to do and hoops to jump through to get something running efficiently on that?
    And what If I want to go big or go home on something? On PS4, I go Big, here, I go home!

    It's amusing. I found this amusing too
    ""What we're seeing in titles is adopting the notion of dynamic resolution scaling to avoid glitching frame-rate. As they start getting into an area where they're starting to hit on the margin there where they could potentially go over their frame budget, they could start dynamically scaling back on resolution and they can keep their HUD in terms of true resolution and the 3D content is squeezing. Again, from my aspect as a gamer I'd rather have a consistent frame-rate and some squeezing on the number of pixels than have those frame-rate glitches.""

    Really? Okay, whooo hoo.

    Game systems are supposed to be simple and streamline processes.
    The Wii U isn't powerful, but it is simple.
    The PS4 is both.
    The XBO is none of these. Programmers are most likely getting very frustrated. Not that they aren't also enjoying the challenge of getting an engine working that will maximize this mess's ability, but they'd rather not have the mess and they'll never reach PS4 levels by any means on a big game (Sports games don't stress the machines enough right now).
    Sleeping very soundly on a Saturday morning I was dreaming
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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating this is some magic bullet, but it does help out, nothing is going to help out in terms of raw GPU power, that ship has sailed. But it is wrong to suggest every componant of the XBO system is somehow deficient when it comes to comparing it the the PS4. SOme of those strenghts have little to do with gaming however. And that dual o/s thing.....

    i don't really have a problem with the X1, i actually appreciate some of the things it's doing. what i don't appreciate is that they're doing all of this but so far, they haven't really brought it yet, the potential is there to have a great console with diversity between games and apps and kinect and i'm sure they're delivering with the apps but the console as a whole still has to click yet. imo. it seems like it's being "forced" to compete with the PS4 because gamers are doing the comparisons...it'd be more fair to compare them both when you look at things that X1 can do that the PS4 cannot and probably won't ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Their primary goal is to alleviate the GPU from having to do some work, but can also alleviate compression work on the CPU's.

    Sound is doneo n a dedicated chip freeing up the CPU and GPU cycles.


    It has one dedicated to compression decompression only.
    To quote Cerny "The principal thing that it does is that it compresses and decompresses audio streams, various formats. So some of that is for the games – you’ll have many, many audio streams in MP3 or another format and the hardware will take care of that for you."
    Its not so much a sound chip as a compression/decompression chip (similar to MS's move engine zlib decompression). Think of it as chip that turns you zip files into normal files. ( in this case a compressed file into a pcm wave file).

    It also does have the ability to do audio work on the GPU again Cerny..."If you look at how the GPU and its various sub-components are utilised throughout the frame, there are many portions throughout the frame - for example during the rendering of opaque shadowmaps - that the bulk of the GPU is unused. And so if you're doing compute for collision detection, physics or ray-casting for audio during those times you're not really affecting the graphics. You're utilising portions of the GPU that at that instant are otherwise under-utilised. "
    This is the basis for AMD's True-Audio, which is what Sony based there work on. In other words, the GPU does your sounds for you. This differs from having a dedicated CPU cores (Tensilca cores) of the XBO, that don't use the GPU at all.

    So it does not have a true audio chip.
    Audio effects are done on the CPU or GPU.
    The way I understand AMD True audio is that the game needs to be coded with the API in mind to take advantage of it otherwise it lies there dormant and unused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Beofre you start telling us what the XBO has, you best learn about it.
    It has a separate sound processor on board that has the equivalent processing power of an extra CPU and thats just for sound and compression!


    Nothing to do with the main CPU.

    Did you factor in move engines with black box hardware zlib compresison jpeg decompresison etc etc? Nope.

    Refer to my post above, you dont appear to know anythign about this system.

    Well accdorindg ot you, the PS4 needs an extra chip to do its work, so it cant be just fine now can it?
    you cant say it helps out then say it doenst need help.
    No. I said the supposedly more powerful audio chip being mentioned as some secret sauce is nonsense since you reserve most of that power for Kinect a burden PS4 dont have.

    Where does it say that currently PS4 or Xbox One game audio processing is so burdensome it impacts CPU?

    Anandtech/Digital Foundry makes it pretty clear. PS4 is overall more stronger system. Not just GPU, but Ram as well.

    And how about the background processor and small ram on PS4. It is supposed to do background task otherwise that would burden your CPU.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Their primary goal is to alleviate the GPU from having to do some work, but can also alleviate compression work on the CPU's.

    Sound is doneo n a dedicated chip freeing up the CPU and GPU cycles.


    It has one dedicated to compression decompression only.
    To quote Cerny "The principal thing that it does is that it compresses and decompresses audio streams, various formats. So some of that is for the games – you’ll have many, many audio streams in MP3 or another format and the hardware will take care of that for you."
    Its not so much a sound chip as a compression/decompression chip (similar to MS's move engine zlib decompression). Think of it as chip that turns you zip files into normal files. ( in this case a compressed file into a pcm wave file).

    It also does have the ability to do audio work on the GPU again Cerny..."If you look at how the GPU and its various sub-components are utilised throughout the frame, there are many portions throughout the frame - for example during the rendering of opaque shadowmaps - that the bulk of the GPU is unused. And so if you're doing compute for collision detection, physics or ray-casting for audio during those times you're not really affecting the graphics. You're utilising portions of the GPU that at that instant are otherwise under-utilised. "
    This is the basis for AMD's True-Audio, which is what Sony based there work on. In other words, the GPU does your sounds for you. This differs from having a dedicated CPU cores (Tensilca cores) of the XBO, that don't use the GPU at all.

    So it does not have a true audio chip.
    Audio effects are done on the CPU or GPU.
    You are making a huge jump and speculation. GPU being used happens in top line PC too. Your Xbox One needs GPU to do that too for positional data and etc.

    Based off that you are saying PS4 not having audio chip?

    I am sorry, but that is just simply false.

    "Both consoles include, for example, dedicated blocks for encoding and decoding video, as well as audio processors that can take some sound-related pressure off of the CPU. PS4 lead architect Mark Cerny brought chips like these up in an interview with Gamasutra in April.

    "The reason we use dedicated units is it means the overhead as far as games are concerned is very low," said Cerny. "It also establishes a baseline that we can use in our user experience. For example, by having the hardware dedicated unit for audio, that means we can support audio chat without the games needing to dedicate any significant resources to them. The same thing for compression and decompression of video.""
    http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/1...n-the-details/

    What you are saying doesnt seem to be the case.

    PS4 Spec Update: Audio DSP Is Based On AMD’s TrueAudio
    "PS4 utilizing TrueAudio means there will be at least some level of audio engine portability between the PS4 and current generation AMD products. To that end if developers can write high quality audio engines on the PS4 thanks to the presence of the dedicated audio DSP"
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/p...amds-trueaudio


    Please stop providing false information.
    Last edited by AttackTitan; 02-04-2014 at 22:38. Reason: double post - Merged :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    No. I said the supposedly more powerful audio chip being mentioned as some secret sauce is nonsense since you reserve most of that power for Kinect a burden PS4 dont have.
    Nobody said this was to cover excursively gaming aspects of the system
    Where does it say that currently PS4 or Xbox One game audio processing is so burdensome it impacts CPU?
    ]Well clearly it does, both have chosen hardware to do compression and remove it from the overhead the systems have to do.
    And just for the record, these CPU's are still fairly weak sauce compare to a desktop chip. Anything that alleviates cycle son the CPU is going to help.
    Anandtech/Digital Foundry makes it pretty clear. PS4 is overall more stronger system. Not just GPU, but Ram as well.

    And how about the background processor and small ram on PS4. It is supposed to do background task otherwise that would burden your CPU.
    Err, I believe we covered that, nobody has said it didn't do anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    You are making a huge jump and speculation. GPU being used happens in top line PC too. Your Xbox One needs GPU to do that too for positional data and etc.
    Err no it doesn't that's what the seperate core is for.
    Based off that you are saying PS4 not having audio chip?

    I am sorry, but that is just simply false.
    We covered this, its a compression chip for codec ONLY.
    And no I didn't say it didnt have an audio chip, it has a compression/decompression chip for codecs, and uses the GPU/early version of True Audio or the CPU for effects. No, it does not have a dedicated soudn chip, weve covered this in posts above go read.
    Ars is correct, your interpretation is wrong that's all, you need to dig a little deeper into the actual articles from Cerny, and what he actually said.
    What you are saying doesnt seem to be the case.



    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/p...amds-trueaudio


    Please stop providing false information.
    ROFL, you calling Cerny a liar, everything I have said has been backed up by actual quotes, not some half baked put together article gleaning over the actual information.
    True Audio=GPU...really..come on its like you don't bother reading actual information about either of these systems.

    Read up about True Audio.
    Read Cerny's interviews at Gamasutra, and Eurogamer. THEN come tell me I have put you wrong.
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 02-04-2014 at 22:46. Reason: Merged :)
    I am no longer participating in these forums, I wish all of you on the PSU Forums the best for the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Nobody said this was to cover excursively gaming aspects of the system
    ]Well clearly it does, both have chosen hardware to do compression and remove it from the overhead the systems have to do.
    And just for the record, these CPU's are still fairly weak sauce compare to a desktop chip. Anything that alleviates cycle son the CPU is going to help.

    Err, I believe we covered that, nobody has said it didn't do anything.

    "nobody said"

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    LOL, secret chips we don't know about huh? There is no other chip to help out, there is an arm chip that they use for background/low power state, which they have yet to get utilized properly (if they ever do). Its a marvel network processor chip, it no great shakes and good luck to you trying to utilise that in game, it has it's own memory reserve. It was never designed to help out in games, network traffic sure, but that's it.
    SONY has never advocated it as such either.

    You actually did. "There is no other chip to help out"

    I know your switchwaroo tactic. You keep making up false info and every time I shoot you down, you act like you didnt mention anything wrong and make another false info.

    Answer to this one. I am holding to your posts again.

    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Nobody said this was to cover excursively gaming aspects of the system
    ]Well clearly it does, both have chosen hardware to do compression and remove it from the overhead the systems have to do.
    And just for the record, these CPU's are still fairly weak sauce compare to a desktop chip. Anything that alleviates cycle son the CPU is going to help.

    Err, I believe we covered that, nobody has said it didn't do anything.


    Err no it doesn't that's what the seperate core is for.

    We covered this, its a compression chip for codec ONLY.
    And no I didn't say it didnt have an audio chip, it has a compression/decompression chip for codecs, and uses the GPU/early version of True Audio or the CPU for effects. No, it does not have a dedicated soudn chip, weve covered this in posts above go read.

    Ars is correct, your interpretation is wrong that's all, you need to dig a little deeper into the actual articles from Cerny, and what he actually said.


    ROFL, you calling Cerny a liar, everything I have said has been backed up by actual quotes, not some half baked put together article gleaning over the actual information.
    True Audio=GPU...really..come on its like you don't bother reading actual information about either of these systems.

    Read up about True Audio.
    Read Cerny's interviews at Gamasutra, and Eurogamer. THEN come tell me I have put you wrong.
    No one said Cerny is a liar.

    I said you are making stuff up.

    As I have said before
    "You are making a huge jump and speculation. GPU being used happens in top line PC too. Your Xbox One needs GPU to do that too for positional data and etc.

    Based off that you are saying PS4 not having audio chip?

    I am sorry, but that is just simply false."
    That is a joke of a reasoning to come to no audio chip. ROFL.

    Go back to reply to the post 169.

    I dont want you running off after getting caught with false statement again.
    Last edited by Fijiandoce; 02-04-2014 at 22:54. Reason: Merged

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    Quote Originally Posted by mynd View Post
    Their primary goal is to alleviate the GPU from having to do some work, but can also alleviate compression work on the CPU's.

    Sound is doneo n a dedicated chip freeing up the CPU and GPU cycles.


    It has one dedicated to compression decompression only.
    To quote Cerny "The principal thing that it does is that it compresses and decompresses audio streams, various formats. So some of that is for the games – you’ll have many, many audio streams in MP3 or another format and the hardware will take care of that for you."
    Its not so much a sound chip as a compression/decompression chip (similar to MS's move engine zlib decompression). Think of it as chip that turns you zip files into normal files. ( in this case a compressed file into a pcm wave file).

    It also does have the ability to do audio work on the GPU again Cerny..."If you look at how the GPU and its various sub-components are utilised throughout the frame, there are many portions throughout the frame - for example during the rendering of opaque shadowmaps - that the bulk of the GPU is unused. And so if you're doing compute for collision detection, physics or ray-casting for audio during those times you're not really affecting the graphics. You're utilising portions of the GPU that at that instant are otherwise under-utilised. "
    This is the basis for AMD's True-Audio, which is what Sony based there work on. In other words, the GPU does your sounds for you. This differs from having a dedicated CPU cores (Tensilca cores) of the XBO, that don't use the GPU at all.

    So it does not have a true audio chip.
    Audio effects are done on the CPU or GPU.
    No no no no no... Maybe?

    The PS4 has its own audio DSP based on AMD TrueAudio that does more than just sound compression\decompression. IIRC This was debunked months ago.

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/p...amds-trueaudio
    Last edited by Vulgotha; 02-04-2014 at 23:22.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    No no no no no... Maybe?

    The PS4 has its own audio DSP based on AMD TrueAudio that does more than just sound compression\decompression. IIRC This was debunked months ago.

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/p...amds-trueaudio
    I linked him same exact thing. his words were somewhere around "ROFL YOU CALLING CERNY LIAR?!?"

    Leave it to Mynd to come up with false information on top of false info.

    Then turn around act as if he never said false info. "that PS4 chip dont do anything" bit later... "nobody said that"

    Hmmmmm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    "nobody said"




    You actually did. "There is no other chip to help out"
    There isnt, not for gaming, for networking, absolutely, there is even a rumor that the ARM might do video compression for upload, but its not a fact.
    Your job, seeing as you so keen to prove me wrong, is to go find me a quote form a Sony rep were they say that the secondary Arm processor help out in the system with anything other than network related (including VOIP) tasks.
    When you find one we can talk, until then your wrong, Sony has never stated that anything other than the SOC does game related/cpu related tasks.
    And before you accuse me of changing this to network related stuff..look at what I wrote, I already stated it helps out as a network co-processor.
    I know your switchwaroo tactic. You keep making up false info and every time I shoot you down, you act like you didn't mention anything wrong and make another false info.
    I'm asking you to prove what your saying is correct..the onus is on you to prove what your saying about the secondary arm is correct. And I want an actual quote not a "rumored to be" or other such variations on the vague truth.
    Answer to this one. I am holding to your posts again.
    I answered you the first time, the secondary chip does not help out gaming "Its a marvel network processor chip"
    No one said Cerny is a liar.

    I said you are making stuff up.

    As I have said before


    That is a joke of a reasoning to come to no audio chip. ROFL.

    Go back to reply to the post 169.

    I dont want you running off after getting caught with false statement again.
    I'll cover this in my post to Vulgotha...I never said there was no sound chip BTW. just it's capabilities I put in to question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    No no no no no... Maybe?

    The PS4 has its own audio DSP based on AMD TrueAudio that does more than just sound compression\decompression. IIRC This was debunked months ago.

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7513/p...amds-trueaudio
    My biggest problem with this is the vagueness of it all, its "based on" but is not TrueAudio tech.
    Take a look at some of the features of a full Tenscila chip used int the GFX cards.

    http://ip.cadence.com/ipportfolio/te...audio#features

    Look at what these cores do, looking at it now, the DSP for true audio IS the chip Cerny is referring to in terms of it doing specifically codec work. Its not in addition to.

    True Audio uses three HIFI2 chips, we don't have any confirmation per say as to which chip Sony is using.
    I will say I had completely forgotten True-audio also used Tesilica chips as well, I should never said they don't also have Tensilica tech in them. Which puts my supposition about it being mainly GPU based out the window (well kind of its still on the GPU, although on a SOC it doesnt matter its all silicon).

    So..to Attack, yes, PS4 uses Tensilica cores, possibly 3 of them. This is the dedicated hardware that does the compression/decompression work Cerny refers to, that True-Audio based work and these are the same thing, is not something i had thought about putting the two together, I had always assumed it was compression chip+true audio, not chip is true audio, or some derivative of it.

    So yes, it has a dedicated sound chip that does compression and decompression (as Cerny stated) + dsp work. Although Cerny seems to down play the hell out of that aspect.

    It is the DSP aspect that I had not acknowledged, I was wrong.
    Last edited by mynd; 02-05-2014 at 00:32.
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    Yea....

    If it does background tasks that normally occupy CPU, then it would free up resources for gaming.

    Duuuh.

    You seems to be the one with the secret sauces. You are trying to wildly speculate and change meaning or add meaning to things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulgotha View Post
    Actually Titan, regardless of CPU frequency (Sony never confirmed, though it's likely to be 1.6Ghz) we have it on good authority that the PS4 has more usable CPU horsepower than Xbox One.
    Hm.. I did not know that. Could you show me source please? I am just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AttackTitan View Post
    Yea....

    If it does background tasks that normally occupy CPU, then it would free up resources for gaming.

    Duuuh.

    You seems to be the one with the secret sauces. You are trying to wildly speculate and change meaning or add meaning to things.



    Hm.. I did not know that. Could you show me source please? I am just curious.

    http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=737629

    ^Thread topic. In addition, a vetted developer chimes in here saying that you can do more with PS4 CPU.

    http://www.lazygamer.net/24/playstat...-the-xbox-one/


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